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Author Topic: New Camera Decision  (Read 6540 times)

Mousecop

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 02:54:55 PM »

My thinking was the larger sensor would give a bit better output at larger print sizes, which up to now I been using the m4/3 files at about 12 x 16 print size.
At 12 x 16, I don't think you will notice a major difference.

I recommend you rent a Fuji setup for the weekend, and see if it works for you. Shoot side by side with your M43 gear for a real comparison.
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2017, 03:27:39 PM »

I have tried every fuji released up until the Xpro2 and Xt2.  Haven't had time to rent them yet.  I have wanted to add them to the stable for the same reason I sold my Leica kit.  They feel good.  The Xt1 with the 23mm F/1.4 reminded me of old school cameras.  There is something "nice" about holding it.  Canon & Nikon SLRs, Olympus E-M1, Sony... they just feel like they are made for business.  A little of the classic charm is missing.  The E-M1 series certainly doesn't lack in use though. 

Fuji still has some use quirks...and the bracketing thing is FINALLY worked out I believe.  Their lenses are a nice size...not compact...but not big.  I miss the IBIS every time I use them.  Honestly...the only Fuji that ever convinced me was the X100.  35mm with a 28mm and 50mm option, LEAF SHUTTER, 3-stop ND filter, macro mode, and it fits in my pocket.  Oh, and its built in flash is programmed as a fill flash by default and it works GREAT.  Only camera ever that this actually works the way we want it to and looks natural, not flashed.  I skipped the S and T models... I dont get along with X-trans.  I love it for everything but nature and landscape.  As a "personal camera" it would be handling a lot of my nature work.  I will be renting the F model as soon as I can.  Just hoping.  If not, my X100 bayer still is in my bag every day and its my fast 35mm lens even when I shoot with other kits.  Its a lens with a body attached.

Part of Fuji is the charm and physical touch.  Once you get past that, they are on very even footing with Panasonic, Olympus, and Sony.  I like their lenses better than Sony.  I like some of their primes better than the m43 equivalent.  I DO NOT like their zooms.  The Oly 12-40 is a magical lens to me. 

As for models... the XT1 and 2 have been the best performers.  The lower models would never focus well for me, including the XE line.  The XPro is nice too...but I just never found need for the OVF as much as I love them.  I would honestly try them.  Lensrentals.com is great.  I use them a lot.  No connection or affiliation, but you get good gear every time!
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2017, 07:16:04 PM »

Quote
I miss the IBIS every time I use them.
I'm sorry but what exactly are you shooting? If it's moving IBIS doesn't help (outside video) and you need to shoot under 1/30-1/60 for IBIS to help with the primes, slower for the OIS zooms.


Quote
The Oly 12-40 is a magical lens to me.
Anything in particular that you have in mind?
I have it as well as the 18-55 from Fuji. Outside of the 24 equiv vs 27 equiv and weather sealing I don't see one being better than the other. Both need software correction (Oly even more so considering it has ~ 8% barrel distortion wide) and sharpness is a wash, a little better in the midrange for Oly, a little better at the long end for Fuji.
http://www.photozone.de/fuji_x/783-fuji1855f284?start=1
http://www.photozone.de/m43/862_oly1240?start=1

Stephen Scharf

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2017, 08:06:45 PM »

Jem,
I have both systems, the original Olympus E-M1 and the Fuji X-T1/T2 and like them both quite a bit. The lenses for both systems are also, on the whole excellent.

While I have a few Oly primes, I personally use the fast Panny zooms, the 12-35 and 35-100 f/2.8 zooms for the vast majority of my work with the E-M1. I very much like the build quality, responsiveness and overall performance of the E-M1. The nice thing about it is you can take it, and the two zooms in a small camera bag (e.g. the Think Tank Mirrorless Mover 20) and have a very capable system for travel, days out, etc.



I also have been shooting with the Fuji X system since late 2012; originally the X-Pro1, and subsequently the X-T1 extensively until September when I received the X-T2.

The cameras in both systems are about the same size, but the lenses in the Fuji X-system are slightly larger than the Olympus lenses due to the larger sensor size, but they are still compact enough to be able take easily for a day out shooting or for travel. Of course, they are fully capable for use in a professional context.

On the whole, I personally prefer the Fuji X system. The images overall have a certain "magic" in them that is hard to put your finger on, but that I don't see in the Oly files. The quality of the files of the Oly are excellent, but for me personally, they don't have the overall qualities and color I get from the Fuji X system. I also really prefer the Fuji files for their rendering of skin tones, which I find to be gorgeous, and in comparing the 16 megapixel sensors, the Fuji has better noise performance at high ISO and considerably better auto white balance.

Regarding Fuji RAW (RAF) conversion, I primarily use LR along with Iridient Developer for RAW demosaicing. I use it as a plug-in and and "out and back" only takes about 30 seconds, and have virtually no problems rendering detail in grass, leaves, foliage or other types of high frequency detail. The detail that Iridient can pull out of a Fuji RAF is really quite remarkable. It also has better and more control over recovering shadow and highlight detail than LR does.

Regarding IBIS vs. OIS, personally I prefer OIS because it works better than for larger lens movements than IBIS, but Oly has really done a remarkable job with IBIS on the E-M1 MkII, achieving, from what I've heard from reputable sources, about 6 stops of image stabilization. As I have extensive experience shooting motorsports with big glass handheld, image stabilization has not been a problem for me per se, and in low light, I use a tripod. I even turn the IS off in my Canon pro lenses as it gets in the way for motorsports.

The X-T2, on the whole, and others have pointed out, is quite a step up in performance over the X-T1 on a number of levels, and when you put the vertical power booster grip on it, it turns into quite a veritable performance beast, basically a mini-Canon 1Dx MkII. It's the first mirrorless I've shot with that will allow me to finally sell my Canon 1D-body for my pro motorsports work (my back can't take that big beast anymore...)

Some racing images from the X-T2.






I think the suggestion here to rent an X-T2 and couple of lenses for a week or two and gather your own assessment is an excellent one. They are both excellent systems.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 10:41:59 PM by Stephen Scharf »
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Osprey

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jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2017, 04:46:42 AM »

Thanks all for the input.  I will be renting a Fuji system to see what I think.

Stephen can you give a brief description of you workflow with LR-ID?  Do you start in LR and how much work do you actually do in ID.  I seems to me the X-Transformer option to convert to a DNG would be ideal....if it was available for Mac.
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2017, 07:44:08 AM »

Thanks all for the input.  I will be renting a Fuji system to see what I think.

Stephen can you give a brief description of you workflow with LR-ID?  Do you start in LR and how much work do you actually do in ID.  I seems to me the X-Transformer option to convert to a DNG would be ideal....if it was available for Mac.

Hi Jem,
I'm away from home right now where I use Iridient Developer, but it runs like any other plug-in in LR. You simply right-click Edit In, and select Iridient Developer. It brings up IRD (my abbreviation for Iridient Developer), and then I select the detail tab for sharpening (you can create your own tweaked presets but the best base preset, Fuji X-Trans Iridient Reveal, is really, really good) and then just select Process and Overwrite file. It has specific sharpening Iridient Reveal presets for each camera, so the X-T2 is a little bit different than the X-T1. I also have a couple of my own presets based on X-trans Iridient Reveal; I tweak the base X-T2 Iridient Reveal sharpening algorithm for my racing photos for a just a touch more micro contrast (clarity), for example. It then creates a TIFF version of your file, which then appears back in LR. It's actually quite simple. I personally don't like creating DNGs as they throw away all the original RAW file metadata, they are limited to 12-bit, and IIRC, they only represent Adobe profiles. Oh, BTW, Iridient has some very nice sharpening presets that are optimized for Fuji X-Trans monochrome as well. When I get home, I will see if I can capture some screen shots that show you my simple little workflow. I really like it a LOT. And Brian Griffiths, the one-man band behind Iridient is brilliant; he keeps making it better and better. Adobe should basically just hire him and put him in charge of RAW conversion algorithms, IMHO (I'm not the first person to suggest this, either! ;))
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LawrenceBraunstein

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2017, 08:00:36 AM »

Hi Jem,
I'm away from home right now where I use Iridient Developer, but it runs like any other plug-in in LR. You simply right-click Edit In, and select Iridient Developer. It brings up IRD (my abbreviation for Iridient Developer), and then I select the detail tab for sharpening (you can create your own tweaked presets but the best base preset, Fuji X-Trans Iridient Reveal, is really, really good) and then just select Process and Overwrite file. It has specific sharpening Iridient Reveal presets for each camera, so the X-T2 is a little bit different than the X-T1. I also have a couple of my own presets based on X-trans Iridient Reveal; I tweak the base X-T2 Iridient Reveal sharpening algorithm for my racing photos for a just a touch more micro contrast (clarity), for example. It then creates a TIFF version of your file, which then appears back in LR. It's actually quite simple. I personally don't like creating DNGs as they throw away all the original RAW file metadata, they are limited to 12-bit, and IIRC, they only represent Adobe profiles. Oh, BTW, Iridient has some very nice sharpening presets that are optimized for Fuji X-Trans monochrome as well. When I get home, I will see if I can capture some screen shots that show you my simple little workflow. I really like it a LOT. And Brian Griffiths, the one-man band behind Iridient is brilliant; he keeps making it better and better. Adobe should basically just hire him and put him in charge of RAW conversion algorithms, IMHO (I'm not the first person to suggest this, either! ;))

Here's a link to a tutorial covering Iridient Developer integration in Lightroom done by Brian Griffiths himself:  http://www.iridientdigital.com/iridientdeveloper/tutorials/IridientLightroomWorkflow.html
Best of luck, Larry
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mecrox

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2017, 08:02:23 AM »

I shoot Olympus M43 and have looked quite closely at Fuji. The suggestion of hiring some Fuji equipment is the best idea, imho, and developing some of the RAWs at home to see how it all sits with one's workflow.

So far, I've concluded that while there would be some positive differences there would also be disadvantages for me (convenience, IBIS) and so considering the expense of changing brands it isn't really worth it given that the difference in sensor size between the two isn't all that large. Fuji still looks like a brilliant system, though. Moving over to FF would be entirely different.

I will say that I am getting excellent results from developing my Oly RAWs using DxO Optics Pro. The results strike me as markedly superior to Lightroom especially for higher ISOs when DxO's Prime denoising engine kicks in. This has given me a welcome boost in file quality. That said, DxO Optics Pro is a bit crude compared to Lightroom. The basics are very good but it comes without tools like gradient effects or brushes. I'll usually do a basic edit in DxO then send the file to Lightroom as a DNG for further work.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 04:40:31 PM by mecrox »
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2017, 08:04:00 AM »

Oh, Jem, BTW, Capture One 10 is really good, too. REALLY good, IMHO. I've been using C1 since Version 7 for X-trans when they were the only game in town for proper X-Trans sharpening back when I had my X-Pro1. C1 version 8 was a big step up from 7, 9 was, uhm, "okay", but 10 is a big step up again. The color profiles from it are gorgeous, and the control you have in it for curves, e.g. luminance channel curve adjustments only is brilliant. The sharpening/demosaicing is very comparable to Iridient, but Phase One doesn't support compressed X-T2 RAF files yet, which I still do not understand. If Brian at Iridient can support compressed X-T2 RAF as a one-man shop, there is no reason I can see why Phase can't. I still think, that on the whole, Capture One does the best RAW conversion for any camera I shoot with, Oly, Canon 1-D series, or Fuji.  I understand that some folks have issues with X-Trans, or only want to work exclusively with ACR or LR, and I totally get that, but using IRD or C1, I don't have any of the problems with demosaicing that some folks gripe about, and I examine my files closely on a profiled 5K Retina iMac for sharpening/micro-contrast and a 27" NEC PA72-BK-SVII for color accuracy. Just my 2 ;)
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2017, 08:10:52 AM »

Here's a link to a tutorial covering Iridient Developer integration in Lightroom done by Brian Griffiths himself:  http://www.iridientdigital.com/iridientdeveloper/tutorials/IridientLightroomWorkflow.html
Best of luck, Larry

Ah, excellent, thanks, Larry. I forgot that Brian had that tutorial. Thomas Fitzgerald had one, too, a while back. He's also a big fan of Iridient and Capture One 10. Just do a search on his blog.

Thomas Fitzgerald Photography
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2017, 08:38:45 AM »

The work I do that is handheld is generally nature with a long lens.  I shoot amphibians A LOT and am at ground level where a tripod often doesn't make sense...especially when creeping up.  Using a 300mm view is ideal I find for the shots I make.  Hand holding non Olympus gear was always impossible to me.  I never got the shots I needed.  The 40-150 and IBIS has been a completely revolutionary way of working hand held.  I can get tack sharp at 1/100 instead of 1/500 when shooting it fully zoomed.  That made a difference last season.  IBIS below 70mm has never been much of an issue.  I do a lot of my nature work handheld unless it is big landscape with filters, etc...  IBIS has been great.  Also for commercial portrait work that I do.  Handheld, even with lights, I can't shoot a DSLR at below 1/250 with a 135mm lens and get sharp images. I need to use an OIS lens, but some of the lenses I prefer don't have that. That's just me.  With the Olympus I can shoot at any speed and get excellent results. (and yes I know lights freeze subjects, but you still ghost the rest if you move)


In regards to the 12-40... I love the rendering.  I love the close focus. I can leave my macro at home most of the time. In use it has virtually no distortion, so it blends perfectly into my architectural work.  The look and drawing of the lens matches my Schneider 35XL very closely so I can use it with my tech cam side by side and not have to rework the results as much to match.  Again, these are subjective qualities, and for me it works.  Not always for everyone...but for me it is the perfect all rounder.  And the zoom ring moves in the direction I prefer.  The Fuji is backwards to me.  And its rendering just never sat with me well.   

I'm sorry but what exactly are you shooting? If it's moving IBIS doesn't help (outside video) and you need to shoot under 1/30-1/60 for IBIS to help with the primes, slower for the OIS zooms.

Anything in particular that you have in mind?
I have it as well as the 18-55 from Fuji. Outside of the 24 equiv vs 27 equiv and weather sealing I don't see one being better than the other. Both need software correction (Oly even more so considering it has ~ 8% barrel distortion wide) and sharpness is a wash, a little better in the midrange for Oly, a little better at the long end for Fuji.
http://www.photozone.de/fuji_x/783-fuji1855f284?start=1
http://www.photozone.de/m43/862_oly1240?start=1
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SZRitter

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2017, 10:23:40 AM »

When Will Micro 4/3 Equal Medium-Format Film? We Have the Definitive Answer

Shooting 645 film a lot still, and I have to say, the answer is yes and no. Between color rendition and DR, print film is still king in a single exposure. But, when you talk about other aspects (workflow, color reproduction, apparent sharpness, etc) then the digital starts to edge out. So it's a give and take. Using a Epson V600 and a low ISO (Portra 160, Ektar 100), I get a very good, about 30mp image with a lot of DR.
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jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2017, 10:29:50 AM »

All great info and thanks for the links.  I will try out ID and take a look at Capture One.  Really looking forward to seeing how the Fuji works out.
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2017, 11:13:50 AM »

The work I do that is handheld is generally nature with a long lens.  I shoot amphibians A LOT and am at ground level where a tripod often doesn't make sense...especially when creeping up.  Using a 300mm view is ideal I find for the shots I make.  Hand holding non Olympus gear was always impossible to me.  I never got the shots I needed.  The 40-150 and IBIS has been a completely revolutionary way of working hand held.  I can get tack sharp at 1/100 instead of 1/500 when shooting it fully zoomed.  That made a difference last season.  IBIS below 70mm has never been much of an issue.  I do a lot of my nature work handheld unless it is big landscape with filters, etc...  IBIS has been great.  Also for commercial portrait work that I do.  Handheld, even with lights, I can't shoot a DSLR at below 1/250 with a 135mm lens and get sharp images. I need to use an OIS lens, but some of the lenses I prefer don't have that. That's just me.  With the Olympus I can shoot at any speed and get excellent results. (and yes I know lights freeze subjects, but you still ghost the rest if you move)


In regards to the 12-40... I love the rendering.  I love the close focus. I can leave my macro at home most of the time. In use it has virtually no distortion, so it blends perfectly into my architectural work.  The look and drawing of the lens matches my Schneider 35XL very closely so I can use it with my tech cam side by side and not have to rework the results as much to match.  Again, these are subjective qualities, and for me it works.  Not always for everyone...but for me it is the perfect all rounder.  And the zoom ring moves in the direction I prefer.  The Fuji is backwards to me.  And its rendering just never sat with me well.

The long lens slow shutter nature is not that common but I get it now why you need it. The increased DOF is also helpful. Some zooms with OIS will be quite close though.
Regarding the portraits, while I have difficulties getting sharp images at 1/FL with my DSLR it's easier on the Fuji. Used to be easier on the 16MP sensor but you can't have the cake and eat it too. On the other side the Fuji primes under 100mm equiv are brighter even before you take the sensor size advantage. The only one that used to match it is the PanaLeica 42.5 F1.2, now with their PRO line they will be touch ahead (before considering the sensor size) but quite big and expensive.

While I like the 12-40, the close focusing being a bonus, that distortion is entirely software corrected though.


Back to the original post, if I were to start again from scratch I wouldn't have 3 systems so close together. A m43 and full frame would make more sense. If I was to have just one system though the Fuji is quite competitive; I don't think I would choose m43 as my only system.
For the OP though I'm not sure it makes much sense to switch to Fuji if there is significant cost involved. For printing in those sizes the difference will not be that big. Now, if he's considering getting the E-M1ii then the X-T2 with the 18-55 is still cheaper.

kers

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2017, 12:53:25 PM »

.... It's the first mirrorless I've shot with that will allow me to finally sell my Canon 1D-body for my pro motorsports work (my back can't take that big beast anymore...


I like these photographs!- the colors are also very nice.
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2017, 01:13:37 PM »

I like these photographs!- the colors are also very nice.

Thank you..
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jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2017, 01:46:56 PM »

Now, if he's considering getting the E-M1ii then the X-T2 with the 18-55 is still cheaper.
Yes, I am looking at the E-M1 II with the 12-40  (currently with promotions $2700.00) or the X-T2 with the 10-40 (currently with promotions $2500.00). So only $200.00 less for the Fuji setup.  And both bodies are on backorder at B&H.
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 02:37:47 PM »

Yes, I am looking at the E-M1 II with the 12-40  (currently with promotions $2700.00) or the X-T2 with the 10-40 (currently with promotions $2500.00). So only $200.00 less for the Fuji setup.  And both bodies are on backorder at B&H.

Which lens for the Fuji? I take that 10-40 is a typo as I'm not familiar with such a lens (would be awesome though). If you talking about 10-24 then they are quite different lenses, the Oly equivalent being roughly the 7-14.

jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2017, 03:07:47 PM »

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant the 10-24 Fuji and yes I realize they are very different but I want to cover the 24-35mm equiv. range.  Even better deal Fuji kit with 18-55, grip and add 10-24 for only $200.00 more than the Oly with 12-40. Gets me more coverage and battery grip.  I have read the 18-55 is a pretty decent lens.
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