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Author Topic: New Camera Decision  (Read 5589 times)

jemsurvey

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New Camera Decision
« on: February 08, 2017, 04:05:10 PM »

Hello All,

I have been an Olympus m4/3 user for many years and before that an Olympus film camera user.  I would like to get into an APS-C size sensor in a mirrorless type camera with good EVF.  I have been looking around but nothing seems to perk my interest in this category except the Fuji X-T2.  I have seen some very good images, they appear to have good to very good lenses and the reviews have been mostly above average, but I do have some concerns about this system and am hoping the collective knowledge of users on this site can offer some feedback.

I am disappointed the Fuji does not have IBIS as I've been around awhile and I don't see myself getting younger anytime soon. I know several of their zoom lenses have OIS but I'm don't have experience with lens stabilization to know what to expect, especially coming from the Oly with a formidable IBIS system.  And I don't see any of the Fuji primes with OIS. What can I expect realistically from the OIS lenses?  In general do the body and prime combinations result in a fairly balanced unit?  I have seen some of the primes appear to be on the larger size.

After exhaustive on-line reading a couple issues concerning sharpening in Lightroom and grid artifacts have me wondering a bit.  I don't really want to learn another RAW process as I have been happy with the Lightroom RAW workflow and results.  Any feedback from users about these issues (or non-issues) would be appreciated.

And general comments on the X-T2 and Fuji system are welcome.

Also I am open to any other camera recommendations and I appreciate all input.

Thanks again,
John Marrocco
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MattBurt

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 04:19:33 PM »

I think the XT-2 looks nice too but have the same reservations. I've held one and if feels great in the hand. Substantial but not overly heavy.
Images from the system generally look great. If you are primarily a landscape shooter who uses a tripod the lack of IBIS shouldn't matter. I do enough other shooting in low light that I wanted the stabilization.

I shoot Pentax and love the IBIS and the ruggedized bodies and lenses. I can't recommend them to you if mirrorless is a requirement but if you are willing to reconsider they have some compelling offerings and a path to full frame you could take with the right lenses.

Sony, in particular the A7rII, looks awfully nice too but that also misses your requirement of APS-C.
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David S

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 04:25:08 PM »

If in camera stabilization is a priority, then Fuji is a no go. Their lens stabilization works well with those lens that have it. I moved from Olympus to Fuji and must say that the stabilization issue isn't a concern for me but then I shot for years using cameras and lens prior to stabilization availability so it is an addition and not a priority.
Love the Fuji cameras!

Dave S
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 06:30:17 PM »

If you shoot moving things or you carry a tripod than Fuji is more flexible. If you need a shallow DOF Fuji should be in advantage also.
If however you shout things that tolerate lower shutter speeds, need deeper DOF and the light is not the greatest Olympus will likely have an advantage handheld.

Processing wise, if you don't pixel peep LR is ok without much effort. I do think they dropped the ball color wise vs earlier Fuji cameras but still looks good. For larger prints or if you pixel peep you will need to work harder, and a different raw converter might help also.

jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 06:43:37 PM »

I prefer to not have the bulk of full frame, though I have looked at Pentax in the past.  IBIS not the full determining factor as I used to shoot medium format film handheld all the time...but that was 35 years ago...not as steady now so IBIS would be nice for sure and I prefer working with primes rather than zooms.  Most of my shooting these days is walking around, very little tripod work.  Mostly process in B&W and would print up to 17" x 22", maybe something occasionally larger.
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 06:57:44 PM »

So what exactly do you hope that the APS-C will do for you that the m43 doesn't?

jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 07:06:08 PM »

My thinking was the larger sensor would give a bit better output at larger print sizes, which up to now I been using the m4/3 files at about 12 x 16 print size.
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2017, 07:28:36 PM »

It shouldn't be such a big difference if you get the 20MP sensor for m43.

TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2017, 07:37:20 PM »

Assuming you are using the 20mp sensor and some of the better m43 lenses, there should be no reason you can't print 24 wonderfully and even to 30" no problem.  I was printing that large with the 16mp sensor and it was fine.  In fact I have printed extensively from a 12mp sensor at 24" and it is surprisingly good.  It all comes down to the rest of the factors.

There is very little quality wise going from a 20mp m43 to a 24mp aps-c.  In fact, the jump even to a 24mp full frame isn't as large as you might expect.  I own m43, aps-c, 36mm, anda 49mm medium format.  Honestly I only use the m43 and the medium format now.  Everything in between is just bulky and rarely has a benefit for me at least.  I get the results I am after and am quite happy. 

The best thing to do is rent another system and try it out back to back.  This is best because you get to see it in your workflow.  Sensor size is just one small factor.  Workflow is huge, ergonomics and feel, lens preference, etc... all make a difference that is more noticeable.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 09:26:47 PM by TonyVentourisPhotography »
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scooby70

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 08:09:59 PM »

I prefer to not have the bulk of full frame, though I have looked at Pentax in the past.  IBIS not the full determining factor as I used to shoot medium format film handheld all the time...but that was 35 years ago...not as steady now so IBIS would be nice for sure and I prefer working with primes rather than zooms.  Most of my shooting these days is walking around, very little tripod work.  Mostly process in B&W and would print up to 17" x 22", maybe something occasionally larger.

If you're comparing a SLR style Fuji with a Sony A7 there can't be much in it bulk and weight wise and if you prefer primes I'd have thought that any significant differences in the size of the camera and lens or even camera and multiple lens package could again be rather minimal.

My mini SLR style Sony A7 and 35mm f2.8 fits in the same small bag my RF style Panasonic MFT GX80 and 17mm f1.8 fits in. That's hardly big. Indeed, I can carry a bag containing my A7+lens and two more prime lenses and filters and it all almost certainly ways less than my Canon 5D and just the one lens.
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 09:57:55 PM »

I started with Nikon APS-C then Fuji then Nikon 35mm then m43.
I rarely if ever use the Nikon D90 (although remains a great camera) but do alternate between the others.
If I would have no specific constraints I would use the Fuji. Has good ergonomics and it's easy to use, has great colors to start with and I have the best lenses in Fuji.
On Nikon I have ok to good lenses but to get better than Fuji I would have to pay probably more and have more weight; the files are the most malleable though.
Olympus has a great ratio of weight to quality with the weather sealed lenses making it a good choice for backpacking. It could be the lightest with the smaller primes but Fuji is not that far if you only take a couple of lenses.

If I would make a very brief comparison: Nikon D750, Fuji X-T1/2, Olympus E-M5ii

Ergonomics - Fuji is great, Nikon is very close, Olympus has some way to go (E-M5ii, small buttons and complicated menu)
Focus - Nikon would have the advantage for moving although the X-T2 is much better than I expected; static they would be roughly equal, maybe a touch faster on Nikon but more accurate on the mirrorless
Dynamic range - Nikon is the best, no questions; then Fuji and Oly with Fuji being better
Colors - Fuji is what I prefer, even more on the X-T1; Oly has some good profiles though and Nikon is ok, you can easily work with it.
Lenses - should be roughly even if you start from scratch and have no specific requirements; I have better lenses in the Fuji system, their primes are in general very good and size is acceptable.
Print size - Nikon and Fuji are ahead, Oly is still ok despite 16mp vs the 24mp
High ISO- Nikon then Fuji then Oly as you would expect based on the sensor sizes; Oly is better than I expected but still under Fuji.

razrblck

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 03:01:16 AM »

If you are worried about Lightroom, Fuji X-T2 files in the latest (CC 2015.8) have no artifacts of any kind. Sharpening works exactly like any other camera too. The camera profiles are not bad at all, either very close or spot on with the in camera ones. I think Fuji gave a lot of help to Adobe this time around to make everything work well.

You can check it yourself with these RAW samples I've found online.
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LawrenceBraunstein

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 08:19:30 AM »

A few years ago, I augmented my system (Nikon D810) with a Fuji X-T1.  Since then Iíve upgraded to the X-T2.  Both cameras are excellent, though the X-T2 is unquestionably an improvement over its predecessor.  The Fujinon lenses, particularly the primes, are really quite good, both optically and in their build quality.  Though my Fuji kit wonít be replacing the Nikon anytime soon, as a walk-around solution or if circumstances prevent me from taking the much heavier and bulkier Nikon system, the Fuji is a viable compromise which has never disappointed me.  Regarding post-processing, the X-Trans sensor does create some workflow problems.  Iíve been a Lightroom user since Version 1.  Unfortunately, Adobe demosaicing of X-Trans files leaves much to be desired.  Granted, it has gotten better, however I personally am still not really happy with the results.  For me, Iridient Developer (for Mac) produces the best results.  Because of that, I usually first import the RAF files into Iridient Developer (from LR) and have ID do the demosaicing, produce a 16-Bit TIFF, and export it back into Lightroom.  Not exactly ideal, but doable and I find the results noticeably better than when I rely solely on Lightroom.  Regarding IBIS, as a landscape photographer, most of my work is done on a tripod so it really isnít an issue for me.  Having said that, the question of whether IBIS might be implemented in a future Fuji camera is a topic often discussed on Fuji forums.  Fujifilm is a company which generally listens to the wishes of their customers.  Perhaps itís only a question of time.  Best of luck with your decision!

Larry
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2017, 09:15:40 AM »

I would love IBIS in a Fuji but then I recall you are supposed to send your Oly back for sensor cleaning and things look a little better.

hogloff

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 09:48:42 AM »

I would love IBIS in a Fuji but then I recall you are supposed to send your Oly back for sensor cleaning and things look a little better.

Is this a fact? You can clean Sony sensors that have IBIS yourself without issue. Do you know for sure that the Olympus sensors need to be cleaned by Olympus.
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Herbc

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 10:21:14 AM »

Assuming you are using the 20mp sensor and some of the better m43 lenses, there should be no reason you can't print 24 wonderfully and even to 30" no problem.  I was printing that large with the 16mp sensor and it was fine.  In fact I have printed extensively from a 12mp sensor at 24" and it is surprisingly good.  It all comes down to the rest of the factors.

There is very little quality wise going from a 20mp m43 to a 24mp aps-c.  In fact, the jump even to a 24mp full frame isn't as large as you might expect.  I own m43, aps-c, 36mm, anda 49mm medium format.  Honestly I only use the m43 and the medium format now.  Everything in between is just bulky and rarely has a benefit for me at least.  I get the results I am after and am quite happy. 

The best thing to do is rent another system and try it out back to back.  This is best because you get to see it in your workflow.  Sensor size is just one small factor.  Workflow is huge, ergonomics and feel, lens preference, etc... all make a difference that is more noticeable.

Amen to that.
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armand

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 12:18:46 PM »

Is this a fact? You can clean Sony sensors that have IBIS yourself without issue. Do you know for sure that the Olympus sensors need to be cleaned by Olympus.

A quick search didn't give anything as an official policy but as far as I recall it was mentioned multiple times that Olympus was recommending against user wet cleaning, you can find it on dpreview and bythom among others. Many users said Oly's automated sensor cleaning is very effective and you shouldn't need to do it, grain of salt required.
Can it be done by user? Sure, there are many that can but I would check with Olympus before if this voids the warranty. Supposedly if you turn the camera on the sensor doesn't move as freely. So far I didn't have to do it on the Oly while I did it multiple times on the Nikon and Fuji but then again, I have more lenses and change them more often on these 2. Granted, most manufacturers probably recommend against user wet cleaning but I don't think it voids the warranty unless you screw up. Oly also has some anti-static coating on the sensor that you might be removing with wet cleaning.

An older discussion here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=74701.0

jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 12:32:00 PM »

I appreciate the discussion and food for thought.  Its really down to staying with Oly and getting the E-M1 II or the Fuji X-T2.  I'm leaning towards sticking with the m4/3 mainly for the IBIS as I do think I would miss it and Fuji has a limited range of glass with OIS.  Though for some reason there is something pulling men to try the Fuji. Not quite sure why but I find their cameras intriguing.  I wonder if anyone knows if there is a practical difference in image quality with the Fuji 14 bit files as opposed to the Oly 12 bit files?

Thanks again
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SZRitter

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2017, 12:42:39 PM »

I appreciate the discussion and food for thought.  Its really down to staying with Oly and getting the E-M1 II or the Fuji X-T2.  I'm leaning towards sticking with the m4/3 mainly for the IBIS as I do think I would miss it and Fuji has a limited range of glass with OIS.  Though for some reason there is something pulling men to try the Fuji. Not quite sure why but I find their cameras intriguing.  I wonder if anyone knows if there is a practical difference in image quality with the Fuji 14 bit files as opposed to the Oly 12 bit files?

Thanks again

There is a bit of a difference between the way X-Trans and traditional Bayer layouts handle, depending on your RAW convertor. Supposedly those extra 2-bits should give you a bit better quality, but in practice it is probably negligible. Maybe I missed it, but how invested are you in m43 gear right now? What would be the cost difference of switching?

If it makes you feel better, I've been shooting an X100s side by side with my E-M5, and the image quality difference is usually not huge. In ISO 200 or ISO 100 shooting, if it wasn't for the difference in how LR handles the color array, I'm not sure I would notice a huge difference. If you work the highlights and shadows quite a bit in a single exposure, yes, you can see a slight difference. Learning to shoot the E-M5 to maximize its sensor was the biggest improvement.
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jemsurvey

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Re: New Camera Decision
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 12:55:34 PM »

I'm not that invested as I have an E-M5 and two lenses.  I had a theft of a couple Oly lenses and body so I need to replace which is why if I'm going to switch now is the time.
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