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Author Topic: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order  (Read 39707 times)

voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2017, 11:46:53 am »

I still do not understand why Phase One continues to not allow a user on the XF to shoot exposures @ 1 second or longer without having to shoot the dark frame (the intervalometer option does allow this but I don't use it).

I have stated why, which is severe enough for me to give up "full" frame, and I would have brought this to legal grounds to get the refund of my pre-order if necessary, even if I didn't stand a good chance.
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Paul2660

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2017, 12:01:06 pm »

Not sure if your "why" is the answer for me. As it works fine on the tech camera albeit you are limited to keeping the same shutter speed, but at least you can do it.  And it works in Timelaspe mode also on the XF. 

It's a simple firmware switch to fix this.  And to be honest as Hasselblad has always been doing it with the 50MP, Fuji will soon, Pentax has always, Phase really has no reason not to allow the user to make the choice.  On the 100MP again Hasselblad allows the user to make the choice.  Pretty simple stuff no need for the P1 Big brother we know better approach.  Let me have it, if the file is too noisy, I will drop back to the dark frame.  But there is no reason that at base ISO the file should be noisy, as other cameras using the same chip are able to do it just fine.

Paul Caldwell
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voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2017, 12:11:07 pm »

albeit you are limited to keeping the same shutter speed

This is essentially the same as not allowing the user to disable the darkframe NR. Taking it beforehand (and keeping the power on to drain battery until the actual shot), is perhaps even worse than taking it afterwards. I would not accept any darkframe NR in the field in 2017, no.

Other than that, the IQ3 100MP is the godlike digital back, at least for now.
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Rob C

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2017, 12:45:54 pm »

While I am glad we have two options, it's a shame we don't have more. Rollei, Contax, these are two incredible platforms, unique in their own ways that we've sadly lost. I think if there was one more player in the field we would have more innovation and both Contax and Rollei have some of the best ever lenses which are sadly lost. I wish Blad or Phase would make a 80mm f2. It's great Pentax and Fuji are getting back up there though. What I'd do for a full frame 6x7 Pentax 67z!

One thing I particularly like about the Hasselblad H is the ability to shoot film with the same system and lens just by changing backs, another major reason I am taken by the Hasselblad.

As long as it isn't just a film version with a sensor on the back!

It was a beautifully made camera, and were it only for holding, then perfect. But boy did it leap about when it fired! It was bad enough for film, and for digital I'd imagine it to be useless.

;-)

Rob C

voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2017, 01:26:26 am »

I ordered my upgrade in Mid January, and was expecting delivery around April/early May.  It was delivered in early July.  so as Steve said, about 2 months.

That's not how I calculated it. I would say it's 6 months between Jan and July. The time starts to tick whenever the 80MP becomes "obsolete" (in terms of king of megapixels). Likewise, whenever anything with 100+ MP is announced, the second-hand value of the 100MP would start to drop. These 6 months are included and wasted for the precious lifecycle of the 100MP.

It's the same reason why one doesn't want to buy a Nikon D4s right before the announcement of the Nikon D5, because the cost is the depreciation of second-hand trade value caused by the announcement of a new product. The longer you can use the camera as a flagship in your hand, the greater value/justification you get for the same money.

As for the 100MP case, 6-12 months are already lost.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 01:32:42 am by voidshatter »
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Rob C

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2017, 04:23:15 am »

That's not how I calculated it. I would say it's 6 months between Jan and July. The time starts to tick whenever the 80MP becomes "obsolete" (in terms of king of megapixels). Likewise, whenever anything with 100+ MP is announced, the second-hand value of the 100MP would start to drop. These 6 months are included and wasted for the precious lifecycle of the 100MP.

It's the same reason why one doesn't want to buy a Nikon D4s right before the announcement of the Nikon D5, because the cost is the depreciation of second-hand trade value caused by the announcement of a new product. The longer you can use the camera as a flagship in your hand, the greater value/justification you get for the same money.

As for the 100MP case, 6-12 months are already lost.



Figures tell you one thing, but there's another point to consider: if you know how large your largest image is realistically going to be, then once you reach the required number of million pixies, there's very little incentive to change your camera until it stops working, when repair costs might/would indicate it makes sense to buy new again. Then it could make sense to opt for higher numbers, or perhaps not.

Just throwing your money around because something is new is crazy. But then, you have to have the perspective of age to realise a lot of these things; they do seem exciting when one is youthful, but are eventually seen as dumb moves. I've made many. Which if it proves anything, proves that I was indeed youthful for far too long. Ask my various bank managers, past and present. To make it easier to digest: think of your cameras as you would of your cars: unless you drive for a living, do you really need that many horses under the hood? Do you really think a Ferrari will get you a more beautiful girlfriend? If it does, is she a better person; are you?

;-(

Rob C

voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2017, 05:02:29 am »


Figures tell you one thing, but there's another point to consider: if you know how large your largest image is realistically going to be, then once you reach the required number of million pixies, there's very little incentive to change your camera until it stops working, when repair costs might/would indicate it makes sense to buy new again. Then it could make sense to opt for higher numbers, or perhaps not.

Just throwing your money around because something is new is crazy. But then, you have to have the perspective of age to realise a lot of these things; they do seem exciting when one is youthful, but are eventually seen as dumb moves. I've made many. Which if it proves anything, proves that I was indeed youthful for far too long. Ask my various bank managers, past and present. To make it easier to digest: think of your cameras as you would of your cars: unless you drive for a living, do you really need that many horses under the hood? Do you really think a Ferrari will get you a more beautiful girlfriend? If it does, is she a better person; are you?

;-(

Rob C

One thing is that pretty much of the purpose of buying into these flagship products is the fulfilment/pride of ownership of the best. Once it becomes second to something new, the purpose is defeated at the time of the announcement of the new product. The owner would get a similar feeling as if he has just retired from an important job position and suddenly no one cares about him. You either lose much of the joy with the gear, or you keep spending more money to buy newer gear.

The other thing is that these technology advancements are real.

It's said that Bill Gates said something like "640K RAM ought to be enough for anyone." In year 2017, even with 8GB RAM a PC can lag from time to time surfing the internet with lots of tabs opened with AdBlock plugins.

A Leaf DCB II Live (year 1996) has 4MP resolution, but easily gets beaten down by an iPhone in year 2017.

Digital backs are electronic devices and are therefore subject to depreciation in a Moore's law-style. It's a bit different from cars - you can still drive old skool muscle cars, but you can no longer surf the internet freely with an old computer running Windows 98.

An iPhone 7 Plus has a screen with a resolution of 1920 × 1080. An Eizo CG318-4k has a resolution of 4096 x 2160. News says that Dell is going to ship a 8k monitor with a resolution of 7680 x 4320. These new displays ruthlessly make the images taken by a Canon 1Ds (11MP) look soft.
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Rob C

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2017, 11:42:53 am »

One thing is that pretty much of the purpose of buying into these flagship products is the fulfilment/pride of ownership of the best. Once it becomes second to something new, the purpose is defeated at the time of the announcement of the new product. The owner would get a similar feeling as if he has just retired from an important job position and suddenly no one cares about him. You either lose much of the joy with the gear, or you keep spending more money to buy newer gear.

The other thing is that these technology advancements are real.

It's said that Bill Gates said something like "640K RAM ought to be enough for anyone." In year 2017, even with 8GB RAM a PC can lag from time to time surfing the internet with lots of tabs opened with AdBlock plugins.

A Leaf DCB II Live (year 1996) has 4MP resolution, but easily gets beaten down by an iPhone in year 2017.

Digital backs are electronic devices and are therefore subject to depreciation in a Moore's law-style. It's a bit different from cars - you can still drive old skool muscle cars, but you can no longer surf the internet freely with an old computer running Windows 98.

An iPhone 7 Plus has a screen with a resolution of 1920 × 1080. An Eizo CG318-4k has a resolution of 4096 x 2160. News says that Dell is going to ship a 8k monitor with a resolution of 7680 x 4320. These new displays ruthlessly make the images taken by a Canon 1Ds (11MP) look soft.


Yes, but so what? The truth is that for the majority of snappers the digital age has already surpassed what they can usefully use. That being the case, there is no logical argument for that majority to get anything else.

Look, in my own career, though I grew up professionally in the LF world and printing from nothing other than 4x5 and upwards, five days a week for about six years, when I went out on my own I lived very easily on a staple diet of 135 and 120 formats. They did everything I was ever asked to do, including multi-page advertorials for UK Vogue, the IWS and several clothing manufacturers; I produced very expensive bespoke company calendars and travelled pretty much to all the exotic places I had the urge to visit, shooting on just those two formats.

In today's world, where less and less is going to be seen in quality paper magazines and more and more on a rotten little screen that lives in somebody's pocket or handbag, even 120 film format is overkill, and probably 135 film too.

One of the best photographers to grace this site is perfectly happy to use a tiny digital for some work; that's realism.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone, with the pockets that allow it, to keep buying the latest iteration of whatever gives him his woodies. All I'm pointing out is that, from the perspective of real world use, unless he's a pro with some specialist needs, he'd be doing more popular good just walking down the street and buying some buskers a cup of coffee. They might even give him access to some great photographs on his smartphone as reward. Spreading the joy, as it were.

;-)

Rob C

voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2017, 03:39:56 pm »


Yes, but so what? The truth is that for the majority of snappers the digital age has already surpassed what they can usefully use. That being the case, there is no logical argument for that majority to get anything else.

Look, in my own career, though I grew up professionally in the LF world and printing from nothing other than 4x5 and upwards, five days a week for about six years, when I went out on my own I lived very easily on a staple diet of 135 and 120 formats. They did everything I was ever asked to do, including multi-page advertorials for UK Vogue, the IWS and several clothing manufacturers; I produced very expensive bespoke company calendars and travelled pretty much to all the exotic places I had the urge to visit, shooting on just those two formats.

In today's world, where less and less is going to be seen in quality paper magazines and more and more on a rotten little screen that lives in somebody's pocket or handbag, even 120 film format is overkill, and probably 135 film too.

One of the best photographers to grace this site is perfectly happy to use a tiny digital for some work; that's realism.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone, with the pockets that allow it, to keep buying the latest iteration of whatever gives him his woodies. All I'm pointing out is that, from the perspective of real world use, unless he's a pro with some specialist needs, he'd be doing more popular good just walking down the street and buying some buskers a cup of coffee. They might even give him access to some great photographs on his smartphone as reward. Spreading the joy, as it were.

;-)

Rob C

Nice pictures! Vogue is awesome ;-)

I still don't think digital image quality has saturated, not even for the purpose of pictures to be shown on mobile phones. If we have a sensor with 10,000 MP and a wide angle lens with infinite resolution, then we can crop the image into something as if shot with a telephoto lens or a macro lens, and still have decent image quality for mobile phones. This saves the weight of telephoto lenses, as well as the harassment of swapping lenses in the field just for the right frame. On the other hand, we could always expect smaller gear for the same image quality (see how Pentax 645Z evolves into Fuji GFX 50s, or even less precisely, how Nikon D3s evolves into iPhone 7+).

That being said, we never know what kind of display technology would be available in decades. Perhaps a 32k resolution projector embedded in the walls would become a pretty common and cheap decoration for every home, and by that time, we would probably hope that we have recorded our children's growth with whatever best cameras we could have obtained. Even on today's mobile phones we could pinch to zoom-in and see the details of each picture, given that the image has high resolution.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 03:44:56 pm by voidshatter »
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Telecaster

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2017, 04:43:59 pm »

One thing is that pretty much of the purpose of buying into these flagship products is the fulfilment/pride of ownership of the best. Once it becomes second to something new, the purpose is defeated at the time of the announcement of the new product. The owner would get a similar feeling as if he has just retired from an important job position and suddenly no one cares about him. You either lose much of the joy with the gear, or you keep spending more money to buy newer gear.

IMO this is among the saddest aspects of human nature. By behaving this way you become a slave to other peoples' perceptions & judgments. I find it's far more enjoyable to own & use stuff that performs great, even "best," and yet can go largely unnoticed. The pleasure you get from doing this is self-generated. Of course this assumes your sense of self is developed such that you don't need other people to tell you who you are or approve of what you do.

I like that the GFX 50S looks kinda blocky & workmanlike. Unexceptional. So slap some black tape on the front logo and let it hide in plain sight.  :D

-Dave-
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cgarnerhome

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2017, 06:50:45 pm »

I have to admit the worse thing about having a Phase One is when I'm shooting with a group I feel conspicuous.  With my Nikon 810 I fit right in and nobody makes comments about the camera (the way I like it).  I'm sure some people buy to be noticed (Leica?), some buy because they just have to have the latest technology/gear (I do like new stuff) and some buy because they want the best quality possible (since I print really large that's very important to me). I'm sure for most buyers it's a mix of all three.  A buyers motivation is seldom one dimensional.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #131 on: February 19, 2017, 05:13:49 am »

Hi,

No GFX for me, I don't feel the need but I like the concept.

Best regards
Erik


IMO this is among the saddest aspects of human nature. By behaving this way you become a slave to other peoples' perceptions & judgments. I find it's far more enjoyable to own & use stuff that performs great, even "best," and yet can go largely unnoticed. The pleasure you get from doing this is self-generated. Of course this assumes your sense of self is developed such that you don't need other people to tell you who you are or approve of what you do.

I like that the GFX 50S looks kinda blocky & workmanlike. Unexceptional. So slap some black tape on the front logo and let it hide in plain sight.  :D

-Dave-
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voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #132 on: February 19, 2017, 05:27:33 am »

Had to laugh at that one.

The overriding reason I bought into the Leica M system was that it offered me a degree of anonymity that I've not experienced with the other systems I've used.

Even customs/immigration officers don't consider them to be serious cameras!

If Leica decides to add Electronic Shutter for the M10 in a later firmware (just like what they did to the SL) then I'd buy it for the capability of stealth photography. Otherwise it's a high profile camera to be noticed by its shutter sound just as the M Typ 240.

One crucial advantage of the GFX over the X1D is the Electronic Shutter imo.
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Manoli

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #133 on: February 19, 2017, 06:06:38 am »

If Leica decides to add Electronic Shutter for the M10 in a later firmware (just like what they did to the SL) then I'd buy it for the capability of stealth photography. Otherwise it's a high profile camera to be noticed by its shutter sound just as the M Typ 240.

Stealth photography ?  If you're going to don a mac, brothel creepers and dark glasses then I think the Leica M ain't the appropriate cam irrespective of the shutter sound !

On a more relevant note, what landscape photographers seem to always overlook, at least the ones that don't shoot humans - the Leica M and its diminutive lenses are far less intimidating. Discreet and not in-yer-face. Try shooting a teenager, or anyone that's camera shy, with an M/75 compared to your D800/85/100 and you'll realise the difference.
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voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2017, 06:08:47 am »

If shutter sound is likely to be a problem I'll use my M9 in discreet mode.

I've been using M cameras for almost 4 years and in that time I've never had anyone commenting on the cameras or anyone taking an unhealthy interest in them. There again I avoid other photographers like the plague.

Leica M9 without Electronic Shutter vs. Leica Q/SL with Electronic Shutter:

a) I know many infants are disturbed by shutter sound, which means only the first exposure from the M9 can capture the most natural expression, while all subsequent shots only capture scared looks. Q/SL on the other hand, can continue to capture lots of great emotions.

b) Just for kidding: If one shoots upskirt in the street (which is considered to be a criminal offense in many countries), an M9 would probably mean getting caught and getting detention, while a Q/SL would probably mean getting away unnoticed.

c) The above example is only for joking and is inappropriate. A better example would be the documentary/journalism photography in war zone. A shutter sound from the M9 may result in the photographer getting killed by rebels/terrorists, while the silent shutter of Q/SL may save the photographer's life.
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Manoli

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2017, 06:40:51 am »

... an M9 would probably mean getting caught and getting detention, while a Q/SL would probably mean getting away unnoticed.

what ? with that zoom lens ?


[/light-hearted sunday banter]
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voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2017, 07:04:36 am »

what ? with that zoom lens ?


No. With a small lens. You can hang your Q with a strap or whatever, and use WiFi to remotely control it using your iPhone. You can pretend to be playing with your iPhone and no one would realize that you are taking pictures with your Q.
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voidshatter

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2017, 07:09:10 am »

If I were you I wouldn't worry, if your pretty pics are anything to go by then it's not a problem you're going to face anytime soon.

I shoot weddings for my friends, but I don't post these over the internet because of privacy. For more than once I have ruined the atmosphere of the wedding sessions with the shutter sounds of Leica M240/Nikon D4/Nikon D4s etc (without Electronic Shutter). The Leica Q/Sony RX1R/Sony A7s etc (with silent shutter) are a life saver to make my burst of continuous shots a lot less intruding.

If the Electronic Shutter is something useless, then Leica would be stupid to spend human hours to implement it in the SL in a later firmware. Even Phase One added that function to their IQ3 100MP.
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Manoli

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2017, 07:59:58 am »

If Leica release an EVF camera the size of the Q with electronic shutter and that will take M series lenses I will be first in line to buy.

/*off-topic

.. and wouldn't that have been the logical next step for the M-E? Can only guess that Leica didn't want to produce it for fear that it'd eat into sales of the full M. Looking at the success of the A7x Sony's it still amazes me that Leica didn't, and still don't, produce one.

And, no - the SL isn't a full M/EVF replacement - M wides still need those micro-lenses!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 08:06:48 am by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: Dropping My X1D Order, Affirming My GFX Order
« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2017, 08:06:02 am »

/* back-on topic

Interested to see that Fotodiox are offering both Canon and Nikon mechanical adapters for the GFx. The Canon ones look to having limited usefulness as, apparently, the lens/adapter combo defaults to the smallest f-stop. Nikon D (and G?) series work.
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