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Author Topic: Dark reference prints from Epson 4900  (Read 3202 times)

ericbowles

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Dark reference prints from Epson 4900
« on: February 07, 2017, 12:25:42 pm »

I've been doing some print testing on my Epson 4900 with three different test images.  All three seem to show my prints are slightly dark. 

The test image from www.digitaldog.net shows three gray scale segments in the very darkest part of the scale (scale is 21 segments) are difficult to resolve.  The white end of the scale is easily resolved and could stand to be brighter.

The scale from www.drycreekphoto.com is in 20 increments and the 0 and 5 segments are not resolved while the 10 segment is barely resolved.  The white end of the scale is easily resolved.

The third chart appears to be a Fuji chart with images from Fuji, Kodak, and Andrew Darlow.  Again the blacks are not resolved.

In all three test files, skin tones are a little dark and gray.

I'm getting the same results out of Lightroom and Photoshop print engines.  I'm having the software drive the print color and the printer color Mode is set to Custom - Off - No Color Adjustments.

Lightroom's printer dialog is set to use the correct Epson Premium Luster profile for the 4900.  I get the same result with either Relative or Perceptual Intent.  Print Adjustments are turned off.

The Black ink - PK cartridge - is slightly out of date with an expiration of 10/2016.  All other carts are within expiration dates.

Obviously I can tweak the images and make them a little brighter, but I'm wanting to be sure nothing else is creating a conflict or dark print.  Any ideas?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 08:57:02 pm by ericbowles »
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Eric Bowles
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 02:09:40 pm »

Yes - see Andrew Rodney's article on this website "Why are my Prints Dark"; and no - the expired ink cartridge is not the problem. You can go on printing with these inks years out of date and they'll be fine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Garnick

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 02:43:00 pm »

Hi Eric,

It would seem that you are going about your testing in the correct way, and yet you are seeing prints that are too dark.  How long have you been using the 4900 and has this always been an issue.  Of course you could lighten the prints in LR or PS, but as you realize, that would defeat the purpose of these test images.  If you have always been using the canned Epson profiles and this issue has persisted, there's only one possibility that comes to mind, your light source is not bright enough.  I do have the proper LUX numbers for a viewing light, but cannot seem to find it at the moment.  Perhaps Mark can chime in with those numbers.  Since I only have to check that infrequently I do not have them stored away in my memory.  If you have already tried viewing under a brighter light source, are you able to resolve all of the "missing" steps?  The only other possibility that I can think of is that perhaps your profiles have somehow been corrupted.  Perhaps delete and reinstall the driver, or check the Epson site to see if there might be an upgrade to your driver version.  Hope this helps in some way.

Gary
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ericbowles

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 03:31:01 pm »

Thanks, Gary

I'm not sure how long this has been an issue since this is the first time I've done a critical test of this type.  Color is spot on and the display is calibrated, but prints have not been as consistent as I would expect on first pass.  It's easy enough to tweak a print and make it brighter.

The use of test prints from three sources should rule out a calibration issue.  Illumination could be a problem, but I can only resolve the darkest two segments with exceptionally bright light.  The two whitest segments segments are easily resolved at very low light, so it's clear the prints are dark and its not due to editing or calibration.

I'm wondering if there is any setting that might be off, or any likely changes I should try to produce test prints with the desired range of tonal values.  It seems I'm about 3-5% too dark.


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howardm

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 05:45:46 pm »

I cant speak to the 4900 but the 38xx has a 'hockey stick' shaped curve down at the darkest tones (and I mean the RGB 8 or L 3) and it barely registers.  In printing, I almost always have to bump darkest tones up a bit to keep some detail under normalish illumination.

I printed out the QTR 51 patches and scanned them w/ an i1Pro2 and then QTR graphed the response.

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2017, 06:00:19 pm »

... but I can only resolve the darkest two segments with exceptionally bright light.
Not sure if there is a problem. There is little information at the left end compared to the right, hence, ETTR.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2017, 06:00:50 pm »

I cant speak to the 4900 but the 38xx has a 'hockey stick' shaped curve down at the darkest tones (and I mean the RGB 8 or L 3) and it barely registers.  In printing, I almost always have to bump darkest tones up a bit to keep some detail under normalish illumination.

I printed out the QTR 51 patches and scanned them w/ an i1Pro2 and then QTR graphed the response.

I can speak to the 4900 - it cannot print Black below L*3 (and often L*4) on any PK paper I've ever used in it. One of the achievements of the SureColor inkset is that it can achieve an L*1 for Black, especially in ABW mode, depending on the paper and the settings.
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howardm

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2017, 06:12:01 pm »

Mark,

What about in non-ABW ?

ericbowles

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2017, 06:16:29 pm »

So you are suggesting that if the test files are all consistently printing dark, I need to make it brighter with a manual adjustment or ideally a profile?  That what I am observing is normal for the 4900.

I can live with that although it's not ideal.  It probably gives me a better basis for what to look for and making adjustments. 

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2017, 08:07:50 pm »

Mark,

What about in non-ABW ?

If we're talking the Epson P800 something in the range of 2 would be the usual lowest.
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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2017, 08:14:04 pm »

So you are suggesting that if the test files are all consistently printing dark, I need to make it brighter with a manual adjustment or ideally a profile?  That what I am observing is normal for the 4900.

I can live with that although it's not ideal.  It probably gives me a better basis for what to look for and making adjustments.

Overly dark prints are NOT normal for an Epson 4900. "Quite Accurate" prints are normal (in the sense that the monitor view under softproof and the properly viewed printed page look pretty much the same). What exactly are your monitor calibration settings? What did you use for profiling your monitor? What are the viewing conditions of the prints coming out of the 4900? Is the darkness overall or just in the bottom of the quartertones?
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ericbowles

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2017, 08:39:26 pm »

Overly dark prints are NOT normal for an Epson 4900. "Quite Accurate" prints are normal (in the sense that the monitor view under softproof and the properly viewed printed page look pretty much the same). What exactly are your monitor calibration settings? What did you use for profiling your monitor? What are the viewing conditions of the prints coming out of the 4900? Is the darkness overall or just in the bottom of the quartertones?

In this case I am testing based on off the shelf test images from three separate sources.  Calibration only enters the equation if the image is being modified or edited.  There is no change at all other than opening the image in Lightroom.  No settings are being applied upon import.  I get the same result opening the image in Photoshop.

The Pure white cell on the test charts is still pure white with no ink being laid down.  But at the other end, the blacks merge together.  Overall without knowing, the print looks slightly dark.  It's clearly unrelated to the monitor or calibration.  I'd consider it slightly darker in the midtones but there is clear separation of tone.  It's only the bottom end of the blacks where there is no significant difference.


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Doug Gray

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2017, 08:41:31 pm »

When "prints are too dark" my usual advice is to compare a print to a reference print that had been printed with known good color management.

In the absence of a reference image I suggest printing an image of a ColorChecker from Bablecolor using Absolute col. Intent. The print and a real colorchecker should match in daylight.
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ericbowles

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2017, 08:56:38 pm »

Doug

In this reference images from three different sources all look slightly dark.  While the way it appears is subjective and a function of comparison with the monitor or viewing light level, the ability to resolve tonal values is not subjective (or not very subjective).  The print is slightly darker - or at least I am unable to resolve the darkest 2-3 cells on a 20 or 21 cell chart.  I don't have a reference print from another printer to compare.  Can you guys resolve a grayscale chart  with a range of 20-21 cells?

I'm trouble shooting that to figure out what adjustment makes sense.  I don't think I have an incorrect setting but someone here might have an idea.

Now maybe I am being too picky, so Mark's comment about the inability of the printer to resolve the bottom end makes sense.  But overall, I'd like to see the images all a little brighter across all tonal values. 



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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2017, 09:06:59 pm »

In this case I am testing based on off the shelf test images from three separate sources.  Calibration only enters the equation if the image is being modified or edited.  There is no change at all other than opening the image in Lightroom.  No settings are being applied upon import.  I get the same result opening the image in Photoshop.

The Pure white cell on the test charts is still pure white with no ink being laid down.  But at the other end, the blacks merge together.  Overall without knowing, the print looks slightly dark.  It's clearly unrelated to the monitor or calibration.  I'd consider it slightly darker in the midtones but there is clear separation of tone.  It's only the bottom end of the blacks where there is no significant difference.

Doug'a advice to use a known reference image (i.e. GMCC) with known reference values makes sense. I do this routinely by the numbers, but the Black on the GMCC stops at L*20. You need to extend the gray scale down to L*2 or so for your particular purposes.

Now, when you open any image in LR or Photoshop you are looking at it through your display, therefore how you've calibrated and profiled your display is vital. What you need for a predictable workflow that will pretty much print what you see on the the display is a display and a softproof set-up that pretty much matches the tones and hews of a reference image on the display with what comes out of the printer using the same profile. Then you rely on image editing to set the tonality as you want it for the image. Don't bother trying to compare a print of a reference image from another source with the print that emerges from your printer, if that's what you're doing (I don't know) - that would be irrelevant and most likely unreliable.

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ericbowles

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 09:34:12 pm »

Doug'a advice to use a known reference image (i.e. GMCC) with known reference values makes sense. I do this routinely by the numbers, but the Black on the GMCC stops at L*20. You need to extend the gray scale down to L*2 or so for your particular purposes.

Now, when you open any image in LR or Photoshop you are looking at it through your display, therefore how you've calibrated and profiled your display is vital. What you need for a predictable workflow that will pretty much print what you see on the the display is a display and a softproof set-up that pretty much matches the tones and hews of a reference image on the display with what comes out of the printer using the same profile. Then you rely on image editing to set the tonality as you want it for the image. Don't bother trying to compare a print of a reference image from another source with the print that emerges from your printer, if that's what you're doing (I don't know) - that would be irrelevant and most likely unreliable.

Thanks, Mark

So in general, reference images from GMCC and others need to be adjusted like any other image?  I'm using the reference images with no adjustments at all and while they are consistent, they are all off  a similar amount. 

What I was hoping for was the ability to print for reference and then check and/or adjust the monitor to fit the print since the print is my desired output. 
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Re: Dark reference prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 09:56:27 pm »

What is the method of lighting where you are evaluating the images you print?  You won't pull much separation out of those blacks unless you get a decent amount of light reflecting off of the print.  If you lower your displays luminance value to match the prints density, you may very well see the same problem of the dark tones looking "blocked" up.

The "gray skin tone puzzles me, because even if skin is printed a little "dark", it doesn't necessarily go "gray".

If you can't get a satisfactory print from these standard test images, and you are applying all color management practices correctly, including an adequate viewing station with quality full spectrum lights (many LED's on the surface appear to good sources, but in reality are missing some critical wavelengths that will definitely affect color), then somehow your printer may need a custom profile to deliver good results.  Rather than tweaking images I believe you would be better off with a custom profile which will compensate for the issues.

 Those test prints should come out of the printer looking great, if they don't it is better to do what is necessary to achieve that goal than adjusting the files, since all of those adjustments would only apply to that single printer.
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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 10:01:42 pm »

Thanks, Mark

So in general, reference images from GMCC and others need to be adjusted like any other image?  I'm using the reference images with no adjustments at all and while they are consistent, they are all off  a similar amount. 

What I was hoping for was the ability to print for reference and then check and/or adjust the monitor to fit the print since the print is my desired output.

That's right. You don't adjust the reference image. You adjust the display calibration (then profile the display at that calibration) so that the reference image on the display (when softproofed with the printer profile for the paper you are using) matches as best it can what comes out of printer.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Dark prints from Epson 4900
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 12:33:28 am »

Doug

In this reference images from three different sources all look slightly dark.  While the way it appears is subjective and a function of comparison with the monitor or viewing light level, the ability to resolve tonal values is not subjective (or not very subjective).  The print is slightly darker - or at least I am unable to resolve the darkest 2-3 cells on a 20 or 21 cell chart.  I don't have a reference print from another printer to compare.  Can you guys resolve a grayscale chart  with a range of 20-21 cells?

I'm trouble shooting that to figure out what adjustment makes sense.  I don't think I have an incorrect setting but someone here might have an idea.

Now maybe I am being too picky, so Mark's comment about the inability of the printer to resolve the bottom end makes sense.  But overall, I'd like to see the images all a little brighter across all tonal values.

There are two issues you bring up. The first, the ability to discern the darkest patches in a 20 patch neutral set, is largely a function of the paper and ink combined with how well illuminated a print is. You need to have about 300 to 500 lux on the print to get similar results to what you see on a monitor and prints almost always have a lower DMax than a monitor which means the darker patches will appear less discernible on a print than on a monitor.

However, the second point, that the prints appear darker across the tonal curve than the image on the monitor, is a pretty common perception. Even when viewing prints under good illumination. If you print with a white border then you should set your background color in Photoshop to white. This will make the monitor image appear a bit darker and should be a closer match to a print.

But here's the thing. Human vision is highly subjective. Even viewing a reference print is subjective. They can vary quite a bit before they look wrong unless you have a known good reference print to compare them to. And there is another problem with many of the reference images out there on the web. Images with colors that are out of gamut will have their colors, when printed, shifted to colors that are in gamut. They do get printed after all.  And different profiles, printers, and paper can shift these colors differently.

My choice of a reference image is the old Kodak "Photodisc" which can be found, usually with a few alterations, on the web as PDI-Target-DCP.jpg. The reason I like that image is that the vast majority of it is printable and in gamut. So if you print it using Relative Colorimetric Intent, you will get a print that will look the same on any printer or glossy/pearl/luster paper if you have a good, color managed system. And what it looks like on a monitor is completely irrelevant.

Once you have a known good reference print, save it, and use it to check new printer paper combos.

The problem people have is getting that first known good print in the first place. And that's why I recommend printing a reference Colorchecker image. Everyone (almost) has an actual colorchecker and can use the colorchecker as a kind of reference image. It's limited, as Mark points out, in that the lowest L value is about 20. But if you are seeing darkened prints over the tonal curve then a colorchecker image print will tell you right away if it is an illusion or from poor lighting. It's a way to verify the printer side of color management. The colors are in gamut or extremely close for virtually any printer/paper and this means that the printed images will look the same since out of gamut colors do not have to be shifted into those that are printable.

Just remember to print it using Abs. Col. and in the same size as your physical colorchecker. Then trim the paper's white edges so that it will look as close as possible to an actual one. The only differences should be those related to surface characteristics. CC's have a matte finish. But you can avoid the reflection from non-matte prints by slightly tilting them from the light source. The other issue is OBAs. CCs don't have any response at all to uV but paper can. They can cause a print to look slightly more bluish in daylight if using a profile made with M2 (uV cut) or, oppositely, slightly red/orange if the profile was made using M0 or M1 and the print is viewed with low or no uV content light. To minimize this print a reference image on paper with no added OBAs.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 11:35:15 am by Doug Gray »
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