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Author Topic: Printer profiles: When white isn't white  (Read 3537 times)

dalex

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Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« on: February 07, 2017, 11:39:10 am »

I recently started making some test prints on Canson Edition Etching on an Epson 3880 using the printer profile downloaded from Canson, and I'm seeing on odd behavior.

I'm printing an image on sheets with several inches of margin on each side. I didn't add margins to the image, I'm just selecting the "Center image" checkbox in the photoshop print dialog. The printer was behaving as if I had sent an image to match the paper size, with the print head moving across the entire sheet even after finishing printing the image itself. Then I noticed there is a very faint color cast to the paper that ends 1/8" from the edges of the paper (the default margin for the sheet size). To confirm this wasn't a trick of the eye, I printed the image multiple times on the same sheet and there is an even more noticeable tone in the margin areas, it gets darker each time.

So my question is: why is the printer printing anything in the margins? I checked that I didn't have any errant color settings changed in the print dialog. Is this a sign of a bad printer profile?

This is such a nice paper, but I can't use it if it gives my margins a slightly cool tone, I need the margins to be the original white of the paper.

Thanks in advance for your help.
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henrikolsen

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 01:10:21 pm »

Not knowing the Epson 3880, but could it have some "clear coat", color/chrome optimizer or similar that it's applying to the whole sheet (except printer margin limit)? A Canon with chrome optimizer can apply it to all of the paper if set to "overall". Unfortunately no option exist to only apply to image area (without affecting areas outside). Only other option is Auto, which can have it's own issues.
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Wil_Hershberger

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 01:17:12 pm »

Contact Canson. They are very responsive. It certainly sounds like there is something in the profile that is amiss.
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Pete Berry

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 01:52:04 pm »

Profiles have nothing to do with sizing or anything beyond the printed area, of course.

So if you simply sized the print in relationship to paper size to establish margins, without added canvas, it's hard to see how this could happen except by a driver glitch. What are your print file and paper physical dimensions?
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dalex

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 04:01:43 pm »

Pete:

Fair point. To really try to nail this down I've made another test. I printed the same image multiple times, each time sized identically on the same size paper, with all driver settings identical except for the printer profile. I used Canson's profile, and then a non-Canson profile (I used Epson Legacy Etching since it also uses the Watercolor Radiant White media type). With the Epson profile I don't get this behavior--no light color tone in the margins and the printer only prints where the image should be and no more. I've also tried printing with different paper sizes (11x17, 13x19, 17x22) and different image sizes with the Canson profile, and under all conditions the Canson profile is making the printer lay down ink in the margins, albeit very light. So, it really looks to me like either the profile is bad for the 3880, or the profile is somehow tricking the driver to do this, possibly there's a bug in Epson's driver. Hard to know.

FWIW I also tested this with Canson Aquarelle and I'm seeing the identical thing happen with Canson's profile.

Wil: I'll go ahead and contact Canson to see what they say.

Henrik: The Epson doesn't have any clear coat or optimizer, so it's not that.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2017, 05:31:43 pm »

It sounds like the app is "printing" to the printable surface and not just the image area and this is combined with the profile not generating RGB(255,255,255) to the device. All printer profiles should do this when rendering white (Lab 100,0,0) in either Perceptual or Relative intents.

You can check this by:
1. Creating an all white image.
2. Converting it to printer space using either Relative or Perceptual.
3. Assigning the sRGB profile to the result.

Then examine the RGB values. They should all be 255.
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BobShaw

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2017, 06:04:05 pm »

Download a 14 trial of Mirage Print. Then you can see exactly what is happening.
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dalex

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2017, 06:44:29 pm »

Aha!

I followed Doug's suggestion and found that an all white image becomes 252,254,254 when doing the conversion step with the Adobe CMM conversion engine, but it's 255,255,255 using the Adobe (ACE) conversion engine. So, is it safe to assume that Photoshop must be using the Adobe CMM conversion engine when printing?

OK, so then I checked my Color Settings in Photoshop, and the default conversion engine is set to Adobe (ACE). Hmm. Not what I expected, since if that were used when printing presumably this problem wouldn't happen.

Now that it seems to be it might be Photoshop-related, I'll admit that I'm way back on CS 5, if it matters, and I don't have an option to select which engine to use in the print dialog. I think I'll just update to CC and see what happens...

Bob: I'll check out Mirage.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2017, 08:32:24 pm »

Aha!

I followed Doug's suggestion and found that an all white image becomes 252,254,254 when doing the conversion step with the Adobe CMM conversion engine, but it's 255,255,255 using the Adobe (ACE) conversion engine. So, is it safe to assume that Photoshop must be using the Adobe CMM conversion engine when printing?

OK, so then I checked my Color Settings in Photoshop, and the default conversion engine is set to Adobe (ACE). Hmm. Not what I expected, since if that were used when printing presumably this problem wouldn't happen.

Now that it seems to be it might be Photoshop-related, I'll admit that I'm way back on CS 5, if it matters, and I don't have an option to select which engine to use in the print dialog. I think I'll just update to CC and see what happens...

Bob: I'll check out Mirage.

Adobe ACE is quite good so getting 255,255,255 indicates the profile is operating correctly.

Sounds like you are using IOS too as they provide the option to use Adobe CMM.  I run windows so can't comment on the CMM. Windows provides a Microsoft engine (ICM) which has some serious flaws but I've tested Adobe ACE extensively and it's quite good. There have been subtle issues with IOS and Photoshop from time to time, even with fairly recent versions. This might be one of the corner cases.
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dalex

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 02:16:19 pm »

Problem solved!

Thinking about this Adobe ACE vs Adobe CMM business dislodged a distant memory in my brain of when I was printing on a Canon 8300, which has its own Photoshop print plugin. The Canon plugin required a special, extra download of the Adobe CMM in order to have access to any Adobe conversion engine, and that download was still sitting there installed on my system (/Library/ColorSync/CMMs/AdobeCMM.cmm on Mac for those who care).

I removed the AdobeCMM from that install location, and now the prints are good, no light tone in the margins. Also, the Adobe CMM is no longer available as a separate conversion engine option when selecting 'Convert to profile' in PS.

Weird that that install from 6+ years ago would be picked up as the default in Adobe applications, and also weird that it is not identical to the built-in Adobe ACE.
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Garnick

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 02:54:03 pm »

Problem solved!

Thinking about this Adobe ACE vs Adobe CMM business dislodged a distant memory in my brain of when I was printing on a Canon 8300, which has its own Photoshop print plugin. The Canon plugin required a special, extra download of the Adobe CMM in order to have access to any Adobe conversion engine, and that download was still sitting there installed on my system (/Library/ColorSync/CMMs/AdobeCMM.cmm on Mac for those who care).

I removed the AdobeCMM from that install location, and now the prints are good, no light tone in the margins. Also, the Adobe CMM is no longer available as a separate conversion engine option when selecting 'Convert to profile' in PS.

Weird that that install from 6+ years ago would be picked up as the default in Adobe applications, and also weird that it is not identical to the built-in Adobe ACE.

You've referred to the Abobe CMM several times, but in actuality it is not an Adobe engine.  It is indeed an Apple engine and it's been know for some time that Apple and Adobe don't always see eye to eye on such matters.  Until a very few years ago Apple had updates for Epson scanners, printers etc., but we soon found that we should always ignore such updates from Apple, as it would/could render your large format Epson printer(s) useless. As I recall it took quite a long time for Apple and Adobe to learn to play well together and Apple finally pulled such updates, since they were actually meant for only consumer scanners/printers, including Epsons.  That could possibly be where you got the CMM engine originally, through one of those Apple updates, and it is now showing up in a particular paper you are using.  Not sure why it took so long to manifest itself, but strange things happen occasionally.

Glad you found a fix and got rid of the pesky CMM.

Gary
 
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dalex

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 04:27:31 pm »

You've referred to the Abobe CMM several times, but in actuality it is not an Adobe engine.  It is indeed an Apple engine and it's been know for some time that Apple and Adobe don't always see eye to eye on such matters.  Until a very few years ago Apple had updates for Epson scanners, printers etc., but we soon found that we should always ignore such updates from Apple, as it would/could render your large format Epson printer(s) useless. As I recall it took quite a long time for Apple and Adobe to learn to play well together and Apple finally pulled such updates, since they were actually meant for only consumer scanners/printers, including Epsons.  That could possibly be where you got the CMM engine originally, through one of those Apple updates, and it is now showing up in a particular paper you are using.  Not sure why it took so long to manifest itself, but strange things happen occasionally.

Glad you found a fix and got rid of the pesky CMM.

Gary

Actually, this was indeed the Adobe CMM that was tripping me up, not the Apple CMM. I don't remember if it was required or optional when using Canon's Photoshop print plugin, but I did install it back when I used the Canon (I got rid of the Canon a while back, so I no longer need the Adobe CMM install). Adobe even still allows downloads of it, here's the page for the Mac version, for example:

http://supportdownloads.adobe.com/detail.jsp?ftpID=3617

The Windows version is still there, too.

In any event, I'm happy to be back using the Adobe ACE.
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nirpat89

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 01:06:26 am »

Problem solved!

Looks like you did solve the problem of the printer printing something other than 255-255-255 in the margins.  But the question in my mind is why is it printing in the margins in the first place.  The head should start and end at the edges of the image and not the paper, if I understand correctly. 

Kind of curious.
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BobShaw

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2017, 01:34:39 am »

But the question in my mind is why is it printing in the margins in the first place.  The head should start and end at the edges of the image and not the paper
Exactly. Still not clear on whether it is a size problem or a colour problem the OP has.
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dgberg

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 08:12:51 am »

Looks like you did solve the problem of the printer printing something other than 255-255-255 in the margins.  But the question in my mind is why is it printing in the margins in the first place.  The head should start and end at the edges of the image and not the paper, if I understand correctly. 

Kind of curious.

In Lightroom (If you have it.) put a stroke black border around your image. Size image to your paper and include the black border with several inches of white outside the black border.
Should print the image and border and nothing outside the border. This will at least tell you that image size is properly setup.
Now if it prints outside that border something else is going on??

dalex

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 02:00:16 pm »

Looks like you did solve the problem of the printer printing something other than 255-255-255 in the margins.  But the question in my mind is why is it printing in the margins in the first place.  The head should start and end at the edges of the image and not the paper, if I understand correctly. 

Kind of curious.

This is a good point, and I can't definitively explain why anything would be printed in the margins in the first place.

To give everyone some specific size info: For all my tests I was printing an image that was sized to 4"x6". The image was either centered on the page, or I set various positions from Top and Left in the Photoshop print dialog. In all cases the image size was smaller than the paper size. In my mind this was never a size setting issue.

My theory is that Photoshop may actually be sending data to the printer to match the paper size, no matter what the original image size may be. For example, a 4"x6" image printed on an 8.5"x11" sheet would have white margins added to it by Photoshop before the data gets sent to the printer. The size of the added margins would depend on the size of the printable area for the specific Paper Size being used. If that's set to 0.125" margins on each side then the image that gets sent to the printer coming from Photoshop would be sized to 8.25"x10.75".

I don't know that that's what's happening, but that's my assumption, because the solution to the problem was to prevent the bad CMM from being used by Photoshop. Photoshop is managing color, so the non-white color being printed in the margins would seem to be added before the printer receives the data.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 03:44:20 pm »

This is a good point, and I can't definitively explain why anything would be printed in the margins in the first place.

To give everyone some specific size info: For all my tests I was printing an image that was sized to 4"x6". The image was either centered on the page, or I set various positions from Top and Left in the Photoshop print dialog. In all cases the image size was smaller than the paper size. In my mind this was never a size setting issue.

My theory is that Photoshop may actually be sending data to the printer to match the paper size, no matter what the original image size may be. For example, a 4"x6" image printed on an 8.5"x11" sheet would have white margins added to it by Photoshop before the data gets sent to the printer. The size of the added margins would depend on the size of the printable area for the specific Paper Size being used. If that's set to 0.125" margins on each side then the image that gets sent to the printer coming from Photoshop would be sized to 8.25"x10.75".

I don't know that that's what's happening, but that's my assumption, because the solution to the problem was to prevent the bad CMM from being used by Photoshop. Photoshop is managing color, so the non-white color being printed in the margins would seem to be added before the printer receives the data.

That's a reasonable theory. On my 9800 if I print an image that is RGB(255,255,255) except for a small potion the printer will skip at high speed over the white parts of the image at the top and bottom. It will even do so if there is a swath of all white in the middle skipping that at high speed. So if the print driver output the entire page, not just the image size, the printing would proceed exactly the same way. It looks at the image from the  driver and skips vertical regions where the image is entirely 255,255,255.  While that doesn't mean that it does do that, the printing would be exactly the same. Based on the results of your tests, the subtle printing up to the printer limits on the paper, and the mapping of the CMM white to something other than 255,255,255, it sure looks like your theory of how the printer driver works is correct.
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nirpat89

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 10:29:05 pm »

My theory is that Photoshop may actually be sending data to the printer to match the paper size, no matter what the original image size may be. For example, a 4"x6" image printed on an 8.5"x11" sheet would have white margins added to it by Photoshop before the data gets sent to the printer. The size of the added margins would depend on the size of the printable area for the specific Paper Size being used. If that's set to 0.125" margins on each side then the image that gets sent to the printer coming from Photoshop would be sized to 8.25"x10.75".
I have no experience with Epson pigment printers.  My set-up is HP B9180 using strictly Photoshop CC with HP provided plug-in.  I routinely print tiny sample/test prints on larger up to 13x19 papers (frequently in the edges to make use of the blank margins on previously rejected prints.)  Sometime as small as 1"x1".  If the printer head was going to traverse the whole 13x19 paper in order to print that little area, I would have gone crazy.  Then may be Epson does it that way.  Who knows what's in the mind of software writers.
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BobShaw

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2017, 12:11:38 am »

Export a TIF and then do this.
Download a 14 trial of Mirage Print. Then you can see exactly what is happening.
Actually you don't even need to if you have a Mac. Just open in Preview.
That separates the Photoshop from the Printer.
It will be the Photoshop though.
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dalex

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Re: Printer profiles: When white isn't white
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2017, 11:54:48 am »

I have no experience with Epson pigment printers.  My set-up is HP B9180 using strictly Photoshop CC with HP provided plug-in.  I routinely print tiny sample/test prints on larger up to 13x19 papers (frequently in the edges to make use of the blank margins on previously rejected prints.)  Sometime as small as 1"x1".  If the printer head was going to traverse the whole 13x19 paper in order to print that little area, I would have gone crazy.  Then may be Epson does it that way.  Who knows what's in the mind of software writers.

My assumption is that if you send an image with areas of 255,255,255 printers are always going to be smart enough to skip them, and in fact this is what the Epson does. I did not mean to imply the Epson is printing over the entire sheet for every image (including images with white margins). I was only suggesting that Photoshop must be sending an image to match the paper size regardless of the original image size. I would think all printers are smart enough to skip areas of pure white. In my case it seemed to be that Photoshop + Adobe CMM + Canson profile was converting 255,255,255 to 252,254,254.

Other profiles (such as those from Epson for Epson papers) never did this, the printer always skipped the white margins and printed just the image.

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