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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 310601 times)

Chris Kern

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4940 on: August 13, 2017, 10:59:39 AM »

J. Edgar made a valiant attempt to track rock and roll singers and Martin Luther King (and probably other civil rights workers), but I guess that was idiosyncratic and not part of a widespread effort, although I don't know that for a fact. I have no idea how many "communists" were monitored during the red scare years, hundreds, thousands?

The transgressions of J. Edgar Hoover are typically cited whenever the idea is floated of authorizing the FBI to conduct domestic intelligence as a reason not to do so.

I don't know whether there has ever been a reliable public accounting of how many alleged communists were monitored by the FBI during the 1940s and 1950s.  The legal justification for doing so was that they were suspected of being spies for a foreign government—the Soviet Union—as indeed a number of them turned out to be.  The most serious abuses of civil liberties during that period were instigated by Congressional committees, however.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:03:25 AM by Chris Kern »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4941 on: August 13, 2017, 02:00:30 PM »

Let's leave aside Nazism,  KKK, and those issues and talk about the rebel flag for a moment.   I'm not a southerner.   But that flag represents being a "rebel".  A person who wants to run their life as they see fit.  A person who believes in states rights over an all powerful national government Like one who wanted to tell the south how they should operate before the civil war.

If you're honest, how does that differ from Coloradans and Washingtonians who allow marijuana in their states opposed to federal laws?  That's a states right issue as well.   Many people here who support those states and complain about federal interference,  are states rights advocates as well.   Many southerners who are opposed to slavery, still today are big supporters of states rights.   They want little federal interference.  Maybe Coloradans and Washingtonians should fly that flag too.

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4942 on: August 13, 2017, 02:29:58 PM »

Yeah.   So the Cubans didn't have freedom then either.   What's your point?
"yeah" what ? you consider Batista was better the brothers ? my point is that it was not ... and Castro went to USA first... so what was the reception he got back then ?
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mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4943 on: August 13, 2017, 02:37:53 PM »

Let's leave aside Nazism,  KKK, and those issues and talk about the rebel flag for a moment.   I'm not a southerner.   But that flag represents being a "rebel".  A person who wants to run their life as they see fit.  A person who believes in states rights over an all powerful national government Like one who wanted to tell the south how they should operate before the civil war.

If you're honest, how does that differ from Coloradans and Washingtonians who allow marijuana in their states opposed to federal laws?  That's a states right issue as well.   Many people here who support those states and complain about federal interference,  are states rights advocates as well.   Many southerners who are opposed to slavery, still today are big supporters of states rights.   They want little federal interference.  Maybe Coloradans and Washingtonians should fly that flag too.

No, let's not leave out Nazism, anti-Semitism and the KKK. They aren't some some unfortunate optional detail. They are central to the events of the past couple of days. Anything else, in the end, is denial. They need to be condemned very directly, and because Trump won't do that, he has shown himself unfit for his office. Even by his standards this is a very low moment. It's really very simple. Here in the U.K. these people are given no leeway at all, quite rightly. States rights and the rest is a whole other argument.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 02:47:46 PM by mecrox »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4944 on: August 13, 2017, 02:56:57 PM »

"yeah" what ? you consider Batista was better the brothers ? my point is that it was not ... and Castro went to USA first... so what was the reception he got back then ?
So you're saying the Castro brothers were better because they replaced another dictator? The fact is Castro was welcome here in the United States until we found out that he was a communist and was getting support from the Soviet Union.  Then, instead of giving the Cuban people Freedom, he perpetuated and made it worse by giving them communism on top of dictatorship.

How can you apologize for decades of Castro's dictatorship? It boggles the mind!

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4945 on: August 13, 2017, 03:03:52 PM »

No, let's not leave out Nazism, anti-Semitism and the KKK. They aren't some some unfortunate optional detail. They are central to the events of the past couple of days. Anything else, in the end, is denial. They need to be condemned very directly, and because Trump won't do that, he has shown himself unfit for his office. Even by his standards this is a very low moment. It's really very simple. Here in the U.K. these people are given no leeway at all, quite rightly. States rights and the rest is a whole other argument.
Please don't lecture me on freedom of speech. In Europe you can't wear hijab which is freedom of speech. In America you can. In Europe, speech is proscribed. In America it isn't. We take freedom of speech very seriously here.  You guys don't get it.

mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4946 on: August 13, 2017, 03:16:35 PM »

Please don't lecture me on freedom of speech. In Europe you can't wear hijab which is freedom of speech. In America you can. In Europe, speech is proscribed. In America it isn't. We take freedom of speech very seriously here.  You guys don't get it.

Oh dear, get out an atlas. It may come as a surprise but "Europe" consists of an awful lot of different countries with very different laws. Nor is this particular matter about freedom of speech. In fact this has nothing to do with it. It's about naming evil for what it is. As I said, it's really very very simple and direct. Trump won't do it so those other than his apologists are going to draw some very bleak conclusions.

Or as JFK had it, in one of his favourite quotations, "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality."
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 03:48:46 PM by mecrox »
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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4947 on: August 13, 2017, 03:24:53 PM »

Please don't lecture me on freedom of speech. In Europe you can't wear hijab which is freedom of speech. In America you can. In Europe, speech is proscribed. In America it isn't. We take freedom of speech very seriously here.  You guys don't get it.

For a change, I am obliged to agree with you regarding Europe, or at least the UK. We do not have freedom to say whatever we like; we can end up being prosecuted for mentioning a few radical ideas that concern people from foreign lands, as well as make any negative observations about non-Christian belief systems. No bloody wonder many felt the Brexit vote was their only chance to say what they really felt without finding themselves in court or at the recieving end of "politically correct" attacks. That sort of attack is okay, of course. Isn't it?

Rob C

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4948 on: August 13, 2017, 03:33:33 PM »

You guys don't get it.
As long as driving cars into your "opponents" is considered "freedom of speech" there's not much to "get". Extremist violence has nothing to do with freedom of speech. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4949 on: August 13, 2017, 03:38:52 PM »

For a change, I am obliged to agree with you regarding Europe, or at least the UK. We do not have freedom to say whatever we like; we can end up being prosecuted for mentioning a few radical ideas that concern people from foreign lands, as well as make any negative observations about non-Christian belief systems. No bloody wonder many felt the Brexit vote was their only chance to say what they really felt without finding themselves in court or at the recieving end of "politically correct" attacks. That sort of attack is okay, of course. Isn't it?

Rob C

How hard is it to say "anti-Semitism and the KKK are evil, period"? And what on earth has this to do with free speech? Too hard for Trump apparently. This isn't about free speech but about calling out some things for what they are. Free speech is another issue, and you make an important point, but not this issue.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 04:29:51 PM by mecrox »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4950 on: August 13, 2017, 04:33:58 PM »

As long as driving cars into your "opponents" is considered "freedom of speech" there's not much to "get". Extremist violence has nothing to do with freedom of speech. 

Where did I propose violence?  I'm supporting free speech. They should take the perpetrator from that car and bring him around behind the building and shoot him. Oh wait? Am I allowed to say that? In Europe I probably be jailed for recommending violence.

You see, in America we're not afraid of freedom of speech. As stupid and as asinine and as hateful as people want to speak, we let them do it. That's what makes our country so great.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4951 on: August 13, 2017, 05:07:05 PM »

As long as driving cars into your "opponents" is considered "freedom of speech"...

Who said that?

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4952 on: August 13, 2017, 05:16:55 PM »

The left is anti American and anti free speech.

Yeah ya know, that's simply not true...while YOU may believe that, there is no actual indications or proof that the "left" is anti American. In what ways are liberals any less American than the right? That's total hogwash (insert your fav alternative to hogwash). While you may have the right to your own opinions, you do not have the right to create your own facts.

I have no problem with free speech at all. I do have problems with people who wear helmets and body armor and instruments that can be used as a weapon, matching down the street yelling hate speech with the intent to provoke a response that ends up in violence. Free speech requires wearing helmets and body armor? Since when?

I have a problem with people who espouse hate, racism, white supremacy, neo nazis, radical alt right and antisemitism. While they may have the right to say what they wish, there's no law that makes me accept it as normal and acceptable. I also have the right to counter protest and espouse anti hate, anti neo nazis, anti racism and anti white supremacy.

That's the funny thing here, who's calling who anti free speech? Do I not have an equal right to counter protest?

Yeah, sorry, I'm not anti American, I'm pro American and I'm not anti free Speech, I'm pro free speech. So you should reconsider what you think you think. Because what you think is wrong unless you can prove I'm not a worthy American?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4953 on: August 13, 2017, 06:33:51 PM »

Let's leave aside Nazism,  KKK, and those issues and talk about the rebel flag for a moment.   I'm not a southerner.   But that flag represents being a "rebel".


The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

No, that "rebel flag" is not really a rebel flag representing Confederate Nationalism. In it's rectangular form, it was seen as symbol of the Southern United States and heritage but also a reminder of racism and violence and the KKK. Some southerners see the flag as representing Southern pride rather than racism. But those would be white southerners, not black. Black southerners see it as a symbol of racism.

In a CNN/ORC 2015 poll (not long after the nine African-American churchgoers were killed by a white man who said he was trying to start a race war in a Charleston church) "most" Americans (57%) see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.
Among whites, there's a sharp divide by education, and those with more formal education are less apt to see the flag as a symbol of pride. Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism.


A more rectangular variant of the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag, was used during the war by the Army of Tennessee.

But the problem is that since the South is making the effort to remove the flag in many official and public uses, the flag has been coopted by by a variety of movements such as neo nazis, neo confederates (or "Southern Nationalist") which are right wing anti-federalists and libertarians and now the radical Alt Right movement. These groups are protesting the removal os the flag and other monuments that harken back to periods where slavery was legal and the root cause of the civil war.

So, no...waving a Confederate "Rebel Flag" is not something that can be isolated as a representation of being a rebel or being free. Waving a Confederate "Rebel Flag" by a bunch of white guys armed with sticks and clubs and wearing helmets and body armor is not a question of "free speech" protected by the 1st Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

See that phrase: "the right of the people peaceably to assemble"?


"Militia members" carrying rifles at the rally to protect the Unite the Right rally. Note, these are not COPs, they are alt right militia members.

That means you prolly shouldn't be armed with weapons and wearing body armor and a helmet if you are intending to peaceably assemble. The white supremacists, KKK, neo confederates, radical Alt Right, antisemitic racists are free to spout their drek but they are not free to threaten citizens and disturb the peace.

I have no idea who started the "fight" but when you have a white supremacist Unite the Right rally organized by Jason Kessler (who was chased away by protesters during a press conference in Charlottesville), you better figure it ain't a 1st amendment issue, it's public safety issue.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4954 on: August 13, 2017, 06:50:36 PM »

Quote
Ivanka Trump‏ Verified account
@IvankaTrump
1:2 There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis.
5:09 AM - 13 Aug 2017


Quote
Ivanka Trump ‏Verified account
@IvankaTrump
2:2 We must all come together as Americans -- and be one country UNITED. #Charlottesville
5:09 AM - 13 Aug 2017

Donald Trump:
We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama, this has been going on for a long, long time. It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society. And no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play or be with their parents and have a good time.

So, he could find a way to bring up Barack Obama but somehow racism, white supremacists and neo-nazis slip his mind? So, anti-racism anti-hate protesters and rallies promoting racism are moral equivalents? Is it not ok to hate racism? Is it not ok to protest bigotry and antisemitism? Who has the ownership on 1st amendment rights, people who promote hate or the people to protest hate?

Does Trump consider white supremacists and neo-nazis part of his base?

Is that why he can't condemn them?

What if they were Muslim?

You know the answers, right?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4955 on: August 13, 2017, 07:26:54 PM »

In their own words...

Battle of Charlottesville: A Firsthand Account


This was only a small portion of the Alt-Right army that descended on Charlottesville yesterday.

Quote
Lee Rogers
Daily Stormer
August 13, 2017

Myself, Azzmador, Zeiger and Ben Garland personally attended the #UniteTheRight rally in Charlottesville, Virginia yesterday. All of us were on the ground at Lee Park.

It was a pleasure personally meeting many of you in person. You should feel proud to be part of this history making event. We have just sent shock waves through the entire political system.

I wanted to give everyone my first hand account of what I saw while everything is still fresh.



The one thing I will say is that everything I’m seeing reported in the Jewish media about what happened yesterday is a lie. There’s nobody giving an accurate account. All I’ve seen is an endless parade of non-Whites and Jews spewing nonsense. I’ve yet to see a single person on any of the big cable news channels interview a single person from our side.

Here’s a quick summary of what they’re reporting.

They’re falsely blaming all the violence on White supremacists and Neo-Nazis linked to the Alt-Right movement.

There are major political and cultural figures blaming all the violence on the Alt-Right with no proof.

MSNBC even tried to infer that White supremacists may have tried to shoot down a state police helicopter that crashed miles away from the city center.

The propaganda is retard tier stuff.

Here’s what really happened.

[typical "wasn't our fault drivel but there was this that's kinda creepy]

--snip--

What’s important to note about what happened today is that there did not appear to be huge numbers opposing us. The anti-fascist groups had nothing to do with shutting us down. It was the power of the state that was used to infringe on our First Amendment rights to peacefully assemble. They flat out refused to honor this even with a lawful permit.

There will need to be many lawsuits filed as a result of this.

I don’t think any of us right now can predict what the actual fallout will be. Suffice to say, it will be extraordinary.

#UniteTheRight will go down as a truly historic event. The record will show that the government illegally shut down our gathering because they feared our political ideas. They were stupid to do this as this is only going to bring more people to our side. This was a major victory for us.

I salute each and every one of you who attended the rally. #UniteTheRight has proven that we are a formidable political force not to be taken lightly.

No retreat! No surrender!
Hail Victory!


#MAGA This individual represents a portion of Trump's base...think about that. With Trump not condemning them, Trump emboldened them.

And if you want to see really creepy stuff, check out their web site: www.dailystormer.com

One line struck me from the web site: At least Donald Trump refuses to single us out for condemnation. We will have to see how this all plays out.



So, they are hearing Trump's dog whistle whether Trump means it or not.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4956 on: August 13, 2017, 10:18:10 PM »



"Militia members" carrying rifles at the rally to protect the Unite the Right rally. Note, these are not COPs, they are alt right militia members.


Sorry for my ignorance, but is this a normal thing, having militia or others standing around with weapons like that on a public street? I can see other people standing around in the background, seemingly nonchalant. Is this considered a normal (or at least not that unusual) sight?

This may be an unfair question to ask you, but are they deputized in some way, such as an armed auxiliary police detachment or something like that, or were they there on their own authority?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4957 on: August 13, 2017, 11:47:09 PM »

"Man carries assault rifle to Obama protest -- and it's legal"

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/obama.protest.rifle/

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4958 on: August 14, 2017, 02:07:28 AM »

Sorry for my ignorance, but is this a normal thing, having militia or others standing around with weapons like that on a public street? I can see other people standing around in the background, seemingly nonchalant. Is this considered a normal (or at least not that unusual) sight?

This may be an unfair question to ask you, but are they deputized in some way, such as an armed auxiliary police detachment or something like that, or were they there on their own authority?

It's not "normal" but it's not unheard off. Slobodan posted an article noting that some situations allow what's called "open carry" meaning carrying weapons clearly visible. This happens in more rural areas and smaller towns and not major cities. I can tell you if a group of armed men started walking down Broadway in NYC or Michigan Ave in Chicago, there would be a large armed response and the "militia" would likely be disarmed and arrested. Most big cities have very strict laws regarding firearms.

As to the second question, as far as I can tell, the armed militia was acting as unofficial "security" for the #UniteTheRight rally. The city and state police certainly saw these militia and there was apparently considerable space between the real police and the militia.

Also note that the militia didn't actually do much of anything other than help evacuate members of the #UniteTheRight rally when the cops shut down the rally. They didn't actually keep either groups of protesters from engaging with each other so I personally think it was just for show. But if the weapons were loaded, bad stuff could have happened if people started shooting–it would have been a friggin' bloodbath.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4959 on: August 14, 2017, 02:13:33 AM »

Well, it seems American's giving Nazi salutes aren't welcome in Germany...

An American tourist gave the Nazi salute in Germany — so a stranger beat him up, police say

Quote
An American tourist in Germany was beaten up by a passer-by after he began giving the Nazi salute outside a cafe in Dresden, police said Sunday.

The incident occurred about 8:15 a.m. Saturday as the man left a cafe called Europe in the Neustadt district of Dresden, police said in a statement. The district is known to be a liberal part of the town and a popular meeting spot for students.

The tourist was identified only as a 41-year-old American man who was “severely drunk,” according to police. He suffered minor injuries, while the stranger who assailed him fled the scene, police said.

Police said the U.S. national is under investigation for violating German laws prohibiting Nazi symbols and that they are still seeking the passer-by for causing personal injury, according to the Associated Press.

Hum...I can see why Germans are sensitive about having Nazi stuff done, maybe we should too?
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