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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 204554 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4920 on: August 12, 2017, 12:51:21 PM »

Ironically, the Trump Administration was getting very favorable press here—and praise from foreign policy veterans of previous administrations representing both major political parties—for its role in assembling unanimous support for the Security Council resolution imposing additional sanctions on North Korea.  Nikki Haley and the career staff of the U.S. mission to the United Nations performed as well as anyone could have hoped in the behind-the-scenes negotiations that precede Security Council votes of this kind.

That's all been drowned out now by the clamor over Trump's bellicose comments.

None of that stuff worked though. For three previous presidents,  24 years,   we've been backing off and including a nuclear agreement where they wouldn't produce them which they violated and it's only gotten worse. They're one step away of being able to deliver nuclear weapons by missile tip to the entire United States. All of the people saying Trump did such a great thing arw now arguing against his bellicosity are the same people who promoted fecklessness for the last 24 years that have gotten us nowhere. When they're asked what should we do, they scratch their heads and still have no answer except do the same thing that we've been doing that's accomplished nothing.   So maybe Trump is right to try  bellicose instead.   Nk may back off.   China may pressure the north.

Look,  it's a scary situation.  Who wants War?  Who wants a nuclear armed nk?  Who's got The answer?
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4921 on: August 12, 2017, 04:36:11 PM »

Latin America slams Trump's Venezuela 'military options' threat
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-venezuela-military-idUSKBN1AR2GR

QUOTE  August 12, 2017 / 12:35 AM   "August 12, 2017 / 12:35 AM / 3 hours ago
CARACAS/LIMA (Reuters) - After months of attacking Venezuela's unpopular President Nicolas Maduro, Latin America came out strongly against U.S. threats of military action against the struggling OPECnation.

U.S. President Donald Trump's surprise comments on Friday may give beleaguered leftist leader Maduro a regional boost, just as Venezuela was on verge of becoming a pariah.

Following Trump's comment on Friday that military intervention in Venezuela was an option, Maduro's critics are caught between backing the idea of a foreign invasion of Venezuela or supporting a president they call a dictator.

The surprise escalation of Washington's response to Venezuela's crisis came as U.S. Vice President Mike Pence was set to begin a regional trip on Sunday that will bring him to Colombia, Argentina, Chile, and Panama.

Venezuela's powerful Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino on Friday disparaged U.S. threats as "craziness" and Foreign minister Jorge Arreaza said on Saturday Venezuela rejected "hostile" threats, calling on Latin America to unite against Washington.

"We want to express gratitude for all the expressions of solidarity and rejection of the use of force from governments around the world, including Latin America," said Arreaza, in a short speech on Saturday. "



Well, there you have it. Trump's behavior forced Latin America to take sides and 'support' Venezuelan dictator Maduro. Just like in North Korea, Trump has strengthened the position of its ruler.

Cheers,
Bart
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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4922 on: August 12, 2017, 04:38:31 PM »

If I were to write a plot, which I'm not, I see the US makes a reply bombing to any rockets, then China walks into NK in order to "protect" it, but in fact to assimilate it into China. That would be neat for both the US and China.

I don't think China would then march further south - no need because SK would be an excellent, peaceful neighbour and the US would certainly not even dream of hitting China; why would it want to do so? Only the awkward mother presently in the north is the disruptive factor for the region. That out of the way, back to Persia...

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4923 on: August 12, 2017, 07:21:55 PM »

Latin America slams Trump's Venezuela 'military options' threat
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-venezuela-military-idUSKBN1AR2GR

QUOTE  August 12, 2017 / 12:35 AM   "August 12, 2017 / 12:35 AM / 3 hours ago
CARACAS/LIMA (Reuters) - After months of attacking Venezuela's unpopular President Nicolas Maduro, Latin America came out strongly against U.S. threats of military action against the struggling OPECnation.

U.S. President Donald Trump's surprise comments on Friday may give beleaguered leftist leader Maduro a regional boost, just as Venezuela was on verge of becoming a pariah.

Following Trump's comment on Friday that military intervention in Venezuela was an option, Maduro's critics are caught between backing the idea of a foreign invasion of Venezuela or supporting a president they call a dictator.

The surprise escalation of Washington's response to Venezuela's crisis came as U.S. Vice President Mike Pence was set to begin a regional trip on Sunday that will bring him to Colombia, Argentina, Chile, and Panama.

Venezuela's powerful Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino on Friday disparaged U.S. threats as "craziness" and Foreign minister Jorge Arreaza said on Saturday Venezuela rejected "hostile" threats, calling on Latin America to unite against Washington.

"We want to express gratitude for all the expressions of solidarity and rejection of the use of force from governments around the world, including Latin America," said Arreaza, in a short speech on Saturday. "



Well, there you have it. Trump's behavior forced Latin America to take sides and 'support' Venezuelan dictator Maduro. Just like in North Korea, Trump has strengthened the position of its ruler.

Cheers,
Bart

Only the Venezuelans will stop Maduro. The rest of South America won't do squat. So it's possible that if military or others in Venezuela feel they have America's military backing or backing of any kind, they may go against Maduro. Otherwise Venezuelans are going to wind up like Cubans.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4924 on: August 12, 2017, 07:41:27 PM »

Only the Venezuelans will stop Maduro. The rest of South America won't do squat. So it's possible that if military or others in Venezuela feel they have America's military backing or backing of any kind, they may go against Maduro. Otherwise Venezuelans are going to wind up like Cubans.

Sure, opportunists are everywhere. But the real question is, why does the USA care?

The answer is, fossil fuel (i.e. pure self-interest, again, at the expense of others) !!!!!

That's the turn-off, short term financial benefits to none other than the USA. Unilateral benefits suggested by the USA do not benefit the general good, on the contrary. Hence, the USA experiment under Trump rule will fail big time, and those responsible will have to answer for it.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4925 on: August 12, 2017, 11:01:11 PM »

... Hence, the USA experiment under Trump rule will fail big time, and those responsible will have to answer for it...

To whom?

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4926 on: August 13, 2017, 01:15:26 AM »

To whom?

To the rest of the American voters who DIDN'T vote for the orange bumbling buffoon-you know the other 73% of American voters who either voted for somebody else or didn't get up off their butt to vote. Pretty sure they will get up off their butt next time :~(
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4927 on: August 13, 2017, 01:46:47 AM »

He had a chance but couldn't bring himself to decry white supremacists the Neo Nazis, the Alt Right or anti-Semitism.

Trump Takes Heat for Blaming Violence at Charlottesville Rally on ‘Many Sides’


President Trump speaks about events in Charlottesville on Saturday in Bedminster, N.J.

Quote
President Donald Trump sparked a backlash Saturday when he suggested "many sides" were to blame for the deadly violence at a white nationalist rally in downtown Charlottesville, Virginia.

Democrats criticized the president for failing to single out white nationalists, and many Republicans issued statements mentioning white nationalism or white supremacists. Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch said on Twitter: "We should call evil by its name."

In remarks from his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, where he has been on a working vacation, Trump made the following statement: "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides."

He added that hate and division in the country must stop, but that it is not linked to his presidency because it has "been going on for a long, long time."

"No matter our color, creed, religion, our political party, we are all Americans first," he said, adding that he'd like for his administration to "study" why such violence is occurring. He didn't take questions from reporters.

Wow, condemning violence at a white nationalist/neo nazis racist rally protesting the removal of a Civil War monument and the people who counter protested against racism and white supremacy is somehow equivalent? Trump lays the blame many sides but one side came to Charlottesville for the express purpose of raising the protest to the level of violence.

Yes, the "other side" may have been equally prepared for violence–both groups seems to be wearing armor and helmets for hand to hand combat but did Trump not get the differences between the "sides"?

Trump won't condemn neo nazis, KKK, white supremacists and outright racism? Doesn't Trump know that's a dog whistle for those groups? The fact that Trump refused to condemn them is being taken by those groups are a tacit approval of what they are doing.

Other leaders seems to find their voices:

Marco Rubio  ✔ @marcorubio
Very important for the nation to hear @potus describe events in #Charlottesville for what they are, a terror attack by #whitesupremacists

4:30 PM - Aug 12, 2017


Cory Gardner  ✔ @SenCoryGardner
Mr. President - we must call evil by its name. These were white supremacists and this was domestic terrorism. https://twitter.com/sencorygardner/status/896465229181210624
3:44 PM - Aug 12, 2017


Senator Hatch Office  ✔ @senorrinhatch
We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home. -OGH

4:41 PM - Aug 12, 2017


But on the other side, they had this to say...Former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke called the event in line with Trump’s “promises.”

Quote
“THIS REPRESENTS A TURNING POINT FOR THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY. WE ARE DETERMINED TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK,” DUKE SAID. “WE ARE GOING TO FULFILL THE PROMISES OF DONALD TRUMP. THAT’S WHAT WE BELIEVED IN. THAT’S WHY WE VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, BECAUSE HE SAID HE’S GOING TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK.”
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4928 on: August 13, 2017, 02:13:15 AM »

Too bad Trump didn't have Virginia governor Terry McAuliffe's speech writer. He told the white supremacists to go home and don't come back!

Virginia governor tells white supremacists to 'go home'

Quote
Virginia's governor has ripped into the "white supremacists and the Nazis" who took part in a far-right rally in Charlottesville.

Far-right activists organised the event on Friday to protest against Charlottesville's plans to remove a statue of Confederate General Robert E Lee from the city.

But it turned ugly, as mass brawls broke out between them and anti-fascists, with people throwing punches, hurling water bottles and using pepper spray as riot police were deployed.

Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe said: "I have a message to all the white supremacists and the Nazis who came into Charlottesville today.

"Our message is plain and simple: Go home.

"You are not wanted in this great commonwealth.

"Shame on you.

"You pretend that you are patriots but you are anything but a patriot."

"You came here today to hurt people and you did hurt people.

"But my message is clear: we are stronger than you...You will not succeed. There is no place for you here. There is no place for you in America."


This is the speech Trump should have given...
10:20
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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4929 on: August 13, 2017, 04:30:35 AM »

Yes, violence is ugly, but there is also great stupidity in trying to rewrite history.

Statues are what they are: representations of the mores of an era. It makes little sense to remove them when all you achieve is short-term hatred and long-term burying of your country's history which, depending on the times and the side you adopt today, serves simply to pervert the thread of reality. You cannot undo what was done, for better or for worse.

Similar crap is happening in Spain, where all trace of Franco is being removed, bit by bit, until future generations will only have fuller foreign versions of Spanish history to read; they will then denounce the truth as propaganda and lies because they no longer have reliable reference to their own history at home. But then, I suppose all of today's political spouting is just that: lies. You see what happens when reality gets tampered with for the purpose of whitewash? Everything turns grey. At least the French have not given in: many villages still cherish their memorials to souls lost to German barbarity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

The above is one such. Would it have been better to remove the rubble and pretend, as in Virginia, that shit didn't happen? That if you deny it ever did, then it can't happen again? That's some big blanket under which to bury the (inter)national head.

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4930 on: August 13, 2017, 05:27:05 AM »

The president defended the right of Americans to free speech and admonished them to do it peacefully.   The left is anti American and anti free speech.   They're the PC police.   They only believe in free speech if they agree with it's viewpoint.    they want to shut everyone else up. They're the Castro's and Maduro's of the world who when they take power will shut you up and lock you up.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4931 on: August 13, 2017, 06:26:15 AM »

The president defended the right of Americans to free speech and admonished them to do it peacefully.   The left is anti American and anti free speech.   They're the PC police.   They only believe in free speech if they agree with it's viewpoint.    they want to shut everyone else up. They're the Castro's and Maduro's of the world who when they take power will shut you up and lock you up.

Then it must be nothing short of a miracle that Trump won and that the Republicans have majorities in both houses.

Do you honestly believe that the USA is on the verge of a socialist takeover? I mean, do you really believe that?

Is driving cars into protesters considered free speech now?
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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4932 on: August 13, 2017, 06:27:03 AM »

He had a chance but couldn't bring himself to decry white supremacists the Neo Nazis, the Alt Right or anti-Semitism.

They're his base. :)
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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4933 on: August 13, 2017, 06:45:40 AM »

Yes, violence is ugly, but there is also great stupidity in trying to rewrite history.

Statues are what they are: representations of the mores of an era. It makes little sense to remove them when all you achieve is short-term hatred and long-term burying of your country's history which, depending on the times and the side you adopt today, serves simply to pervert the thread of reality. You cannot undo what was done, for better or for worse.

Similar crap is happening in Spain, where all trace of Franco is being removed, bit by bit, until future generations will only have fuller foreign versions of Spanish history to read; they will then denounce the truth as propaganda and lies because they no longer have reliable reference to their own history at home. But then, I suppose all of today's political spouting is just that: lies. You see what happens when reality gets tampered with for the purpose of whitewash? Everything turns grey. At least the French have not given in: many villages still cherish their memorials to souls lost to German barbarity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

The above is one such. Would it have been better to remove the rubble and pretend, as in Virginia, that shit didn't happen? That if you deny it ever did, then it can't happen again? That's some big blanket under which to bury the (inter)national head.

Rob


I take your point and have some sympathy for it. But archives and history books are full of descriptions of what happened in the past, the info not hard to find. There are numerous documentaries available, probably for free on youtube. Then there's the interweb. It's an open question what a country should celebrate in statues and town squares. There's a sizeable number of Americans who have a fetish about the Confederate flag, for example. How many of them do you think know any history, other than what they see in Hollywood movies? The Confederate flag is a stand-in, a metaphor for generic rebellion. Rebellion against what, I can't tell anymore, can you?

Should there be swastikas all over Germany as a reminder? How about statues of lynchings in public squares in Alabama and Mississippi?

I've been saying for years now that we should have rules in place that no statues of politicians should be erected until they've been dead for at least 50 years. Best to let to let some time pass before deciding if they're worth remembering let alone celebrating.

Do you really think that the supremacist crowd in Virginia that organized that demonstration truly care about history?

Myself, I'd be interested to know what Homeland Security knows about those neo-Nazi and other white supremacist groups. Are they tracking them? Are any of them on no-fly lists?
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4934 on: August 13, 2017, 06:53:48 AM »

Is driving cars into protesters considered free speech now?
Touché

The problem with extremists (on all sides of the spectrum) is that they are too stupid to defend their case with free speech and need to resort to violence to try and "make their point". I think as soon as that happens they actually prove they're wrong and lost their cause.
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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4935 on: August 13, 2017, 07:27:03 AM »

.... Do you honestly believe that the USA is on the verge of a socialist takeover? I mean, do you really believe that?...

Yes.

Though, to be precise, at the beginning of the road that leads to the verge.

Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4936 on: August 13, 2017, 09:05:24 AM »


I take your point and have some sympathy for it. But archives and history books are full of descriptions of what happened in the past, the info not hard to find. There are numerous documentaries available, probably for free on youtube. Then there's the interweb. It's an open question what a country should celebrate in statues and town squares. There's a sizeable number of Americans who have a fetish about the Confederate flag, for example. How many of them do you think know any history, other than what they see in Hollywood movies? The Confederate flag is a stand-in, a metaphor for generic rebellion. Rebellion against what, I can't tell anymore, can you?

Should there be swastikas all over Germany as a reminder? How about statues of lynchings in public squares in Alabama and Mississippi?

I've been saying for years now that we should have rules in place that no statues of politicians should be erected until they've been dead for at least 50 years. Best to let to let some time pass before deciding if they're worth remembering let alone celebrating.

Do you really think that the supremacist crowd in Virginia that organized that demonstration truly care about history?

Myself, I'd be interested to know what Homeland Security knows about those neo-Nazi and other white supremacist groups. Are they tracking them? Are any of them on no-fly lists?

The problem with books is that they can vanish, either into populist bonfires or government-sponsored ones. A statue has a better chance of survival unless it's called Sadam; guess who pulled that one down for the greater glory of tv news... That flag-raising photo in WW2 has quite a legacy as behavioural fashion icon. I quite liked the Dixie flag (as design) and considered having it painted onto the roof of my old car but didn't for two reasons: no paint shops here can do that sort of artwork - they have problems respraying straight repairs; I realised that somebody not familiar with the Dukes of H. would probably vandalise the old bus thinking I was an American. Maybe the local cop who made me remove my US vanity plate (bearing my website name) after thirty-five years of hassle-free display of such a plate in various iterations was actually doing me a favour, but I doubt it.

As for statues to lynchings - do they exist? Swastikas are problematic: a backwards swastika is perfectly legitimate in the whole of India... I'd be amazed if no swastika is alive and perfectly well in some public, German forum if only for its curiosity value today. The whole concept of whitewash frightens me more than what's being erased - allow it in one sphere of public life and all truth is at once under threat, subject to the existing power structure of the day. Didn't ISIS do the same with historical sites because they didn't dig the message? Would you think that might be okay? Not a lot of difference between an old (in US terms) statue and some old ruins a few centuries out of date...

Supremacy crowds don't justify anything other than the need for control, but that's easy to say if one lives in another neighbourhood than the one they might occupy. It's what seems to have driven Brexit, after all.

It would be nice if we could all coexist in peace, but many of us dislike our own neighbours, regardless of however pale - or dark - their skin may be.  Love can't be legislated.

Rob

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4937 on: August 13, 2017, 09:26:51 AM »

I'd be interested to know what Homeland Security knows about those neo-Nazi and other white supremacist groups. Are they tracking them? Are any of them on no-fly lists?

Their members probably are not being tracked and, in general, it wouldn't be possible for the government to place them on no-fly lists.  U.S. law enforcement agencies—both federal and state—can only begin investigations if they have "probable cause" that a crime has been committed or is about to be, at which point they can obtain judicial warrants to conduct searches, but the "about to be" part requires evidence that is difficult to obtain without an informant who is participating in an active plan to commit a crime.  Political speech and belief, per se, are constitutionally protected no matter how extreme, and do not constitute probable cause to trigger law enforcement investigations.

Unlike most countries, the United States has no domestic intelligence service that can monitor individuals who are suspected to be likely to commit crimes but have not yet done so.  There have been proposals over the years to give the FBI limited intelligence authority similar to that exercised by the domestic intelligence agencies of some European democracies—perhaps not as extensive as the British MI-5, but something similar to the powers of the German BfV—however Congress has never acted on them.  (The FBI does have counter-intelligence jurisdiction: the ability to monitor individuals who are believed to be spying for foreign governments, whether they are foreigners, or citizens or permanent residents of the United States.)

Most terrorist plots that have been detected involve individuals with foreign connections, and, as the whole world is aware, the United States has a number of agencies that gather foreign intelligence, as well as information-sharing arrangements with the intelligence agencies of numerous other governments.  Based on the press accounts, it apparently is through involvement with foreign collaborators that most plans to commit terrorist acts here have been discovered.  But domestic groups, even if they are actively planning violence, probably find it fairly easy to fly under the law enforcement radar.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4938 on: August 13, 2017, 10:29:03 AM »

Unlike most countries, the United States has no domestic intelligence service that can monitor individuals who are suspected to be likely to commit crimes but have not yet done so.  There have been proposals over the years to give the FBI limited intelligence authority similar to that exercised by the domestic intelligence agencies of some European democracies—perhaps not as extensive as the British MI-5, but something similar to the powers of the German BfV—however Congress has never acted on them.  (The FBI does have counter-intelligence jurisdiction: the ability to monitor individuals who are believed to be spying for foreign governments, whether they are foreigners, or citizens or permanent residents of the United States.)

J. Edgar made a valiant attempt to track rock and roll singers and Martin Luther King (and probably other civil rights workers), but I guess that was idiosyncratic and not part of a widespread effort, although I don't know that for a fact. I have no idea how many "communists" were monitored during the red scare years, hundreds, thousands? But as you say, that was nowhere near the efforts of KGB and Stasi.

Funny how some people will staunchly support the free speech rights of white supremacist groups, even the Neo-Nazi anti-semitic ones, but freak if some "socialist" politician advocates universal health care or environmental protection. The fact that Trump explicitly used the phrase 'all sides' (or whatever the words were) and failed, at least at first blush, to condemn those far right views that were being expressed is not encouraging, since it was probably not an accident and the omission may have been intended to make a point (fits the pattern). It will be interesting to see if the voters remember that in the future. There were some grumblings reported yesterday about Republican politicians not being happy about it, which may be the right noise to make, but we'll see if they're actually willing to risk losing those votes (assuming those folks vote, that is). I'm not optimistic about that. Politicians tend to pander nowadays, but maybe that's all they are capable of; the "best and the brightest" may not be choosing careers in public service as much as they used to.

This is so sad to watch.
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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4939 on: August 13, 2017, 10:30:15 AM »

And a friend just sent me this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/neo-nazis-white-supremacists-celebrate-trump-response-virginia-charlottesville-a7890786.html.

Somehow, in my spotty reading, I managed to miss the fact that the KKK was represented at this rally. The clan? Really? What year is this?
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