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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 150965 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3720 on: June 19, 2017, 03:47:05 PM »

I think this site contradicts your premise, and it also provide evidence of such. 

https://www.engagecuba.org/cubas-private-sector/
Many changes made by Castro predates Obama's policy changes.   The Cuban economy is a disaster.  They know they have to change economic policies.  If they want to improve it even more,  let them provide additional freedoms before we give them more carrots.   Also,  let them return Chesimard to us who killed a number of state troopers from New Jersey where live.   Although I'm not Cuban,  I have as axe to grind also.  Castro is protecting her, a murderer.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3721 on: June 19, 2017, 04:04:48 PM »

Many changes made by Castro predates Obama's policy changes.   The Cuban economy is a disaster.  They know they have to change economic policies.  If they want to improve it even more,  let them provide additional freedoms before we give them more carrots.   Also,  let them return Chesimard to us who killed a number of state troopers from New Jersey where live.   Although I'm not Cuban,  I have as axe to grind also.  Castro is protecting her, a murderer.

Don't be foolish Alan. 

Are you seriously suggesting that Raul, the devout communist, the one who convinced Fidel to implement communism and socialize the whole economy, just came up with his reforms on his own?  That he suddenly had a change in heart? 

Also you seriously suggesting that talks between him and Obama did not occur long before the 2014 thawing and that maybe Obama was an influence on Raul's reforms?  And that maybe, due to negotiations, Obama could not claim part of them. 

The Cuban state economy is a disaster, but there is a free market revolution starting.  It's really sad to see so many fanboys ready to piss that away just because Trump says so.  I may have been for Trump over HRC due to fiscal concerns and over regulations, but I will not idly approve of all his policies, especially when they lack all reason and evidence of working. 

I am glad to see republicans voice their opposition to this foolish policy that has a 54 year track record of failure. 

Insofar as Chesimard, you really need to learn to cut your losses at a certain point.  Move on, get over it, and you're a New Yorker that now lives in NJ. 

And by the way, you have provided nothing but ideas that, on top of this, have 54 years of proof against them working.  My side of the argument has proof of our ideas working and improving the Cuban economy. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 04:28:55 PM by JoeKitchen »
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Joe Kitchen
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3722 on: June 19, 2017, 04:23:50 PM »

Many changes made by Castro predates Obama's policy changes.   The Cuban economy is a disaster.  They know they have to change economic policies.  If they want to improve it even more,  let them provide additional freedoms before we give them more carrots.   Also,  let them return Chesimard to us who killed a number of state troopers from New Jersey where live.   Although I'm not Cuban,  I have as axe to grind also.  Castro is protecting her, a murderer.

a citizen of country that was shielding Brazinskas' is righteously whining about Chesimard ? hilarious !
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3723 on: June 19, 2017, 05:12:56 PM »

Joe, he's keeping his campaign promise regarding Cuba.  That small group helped him win Florida and the election. 
Not really, Trump overwhelmingly won the Panhandle area in Florida.  The anti=Castro votes in the Miami area are really rather small these days.  ONe of the big anti-Castro members of Congress, Ros-Lehtinen is retiring as her district is now swinging to the Dems and she voted against the Republican healthcare bill.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3724 on: June 19, 2017, 05:56:20 PM »

Don't be foolish Alan. 

Are you seriously suggesting that Raul, the devout communist, the one who convinced Fidel to implement communism and socialize the whole economy, just came up with his reforms on his own?  That he suddenly had a change in heart? 

Also you seriously suggesting that talks between him and Obama did not occur long before the 2014 thawing and that maybe Obama was an influence on Raul's reforms?  And that maybe, due to negotiations, Obama could not claim part of them. 

The Cuban state economy is a disaster, but there is a free market revolution starting.  It's really sad to see so many fanboys ready to piss that away just because Trump says so.  I may have been for Trump over HRC due to fiscal concerns and over regulations, but I will not idly approve of all his policies, especially when they lack all reason and evidence of working. 

I am glad to see republicans voice their opposition to this foolish policy that has a 54 year track record of failure. 

Insofar as Chesimard, you really need to learn to cut your losses at a certain point.  Move on, get over it, and you're a New Yorker that now lives in NJ. 

And by the way, you have provided nothing but ideas that, on top of this, have 54 years of proof against them working.  My side of the argument has proof of our ideas working and improving the Cuban economy. 
Yes I'm a New Yorker that moved to NJ 4 years ago.  But as a New Yorker living miles from the killing and with Chesimard very much in  the news at the time, it put all people in the NY Metro area with a lot of hate for her.  She held up banks in the Bronx where I grew up.  She and her Black Liberation Party terrorist cohorts held up banks in Queens where I lived for over 40 years.  She also attacked NYPD police with a hand grenade two miles from my home in Queens, NYC.  You're very nonchalant about it which isn't right.   

I have no idea what you mean when you say cut my loses.  What does that even mean?  I'm not losing anything when the President is tough on the Communist Cuban regime that protected Chesimard.  So you're saying screw the families of the cops, who cares that this women killed them that she escaped from jail 35 years ago?    She has a $1 million reward on her head from the FBI.  She was sentenced to life in prison and escaped to Cuba where Fidel gave her political asylum. If Raul wants us to help economically, let them return her. 
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3725 on: June 19, 2017, 06:10:50 PM »

a citizen of country that was shielding Brazinskas' is righteously whining about Chesimard ? hilarious !
The US should have returned him to Russia.  At least there's poetic justice.  His son who helped him hijack the plane, shot and killed him years later in an argument. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3726 on: June 19, 2017, 06:13:43 PM »

Yes I'm a New Yorker that moved to NJ 4 years ago.  But as a New Yorker living miles from the killing and with Chesimard very much in  the news at the time, it put all people in the NY Metro area with a lot of hate for her.  She held up banks in the Bronx where I grew up.  She and her Black Liberation Party terrorist cohorts held up banks in Queens where I lived for over 40 years.  She also attacked NYPD police with a hand grenade two miles from my home in Queens, NYC.  You're very nonchalant about it which isn't right.   

I have no idea what you mean when you say cut my loses.  What does that even mean?  I'm not losing anything when the President is tough on the Communist Cuban regime that protected Chesimard.  So you're saying screw the families of the cops, who cares that this women killed them that she escaped from jail 35 years ago?    She has a $1 million reward on her head from the FBI.  She was sentenced to life in prison and escaped to Cuba where Fidel gave her political asylum. If Raul wants us to help economically, let them return her. 
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard

In so many words, yes, that is exactly what I am saying to your Red Herring of an argument on not opening diplomatic relations with Cuba. 

It happened in 1977, another era, and I could care less about some trivial event, albeit a tragedy, that happened 40 years ago.

What I care about is allowing free markets to do their job, which they are doing in Cuba. 

The one thing that has finally happened in 54 years that is undermining the regime you want to nix because of someone whom you don't know was murdered two generations ago. 

It's time to cut our losses here.  Meaning we've lost this to Cuba, repeatably.  It is time to realize this and move on. 
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Joe Kitchen
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3727 on: June 19, 2017, 06:20:12 PM »

In so many words, yes, that is exactly what I am saying to your Red Herring of an argument on not opening diplomatic relations with Cuba. 

It happened in 1977, another era, and I could care less about some trivial event, albeit a tragedy, that happened 40 years ago.

What I care about is allowing free markets to do their job, which they are doing in Cuba. 

The one thing that has finally happened in 54 years that is undermining the regime you want to nix because of someone whom you don't know was murdered two generations ago. 
Joe, she's still alive.  She's been living high off the hog down there for 35 years with Castro using her as a foil, rubbing our noses in it for all that time.  All you seem to be concerned with is getting Americans on cruise ship to Havana so they can enjoy vacationing in the Caribbean.   I wonder why you're so strong on this?  Is there some business or monetary thing going on that you would benefit from closer ties? Why are you so concerned with free markets? 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3728 on: June 19, 2017, 06:25:33 PM »

Joe, she's still alive.  She's been living high off the hog down there for 35 years with Castro using her as a foil, rubbing our noses in it for all that time.  All you seem to be concerned with is getting Americans on cruise ship to Havana so they can enjoy vacationing in the Caribbean.   I wonder why you're so strong on this?  Is there some business or monetary thing going on that you would benefit from closer ties? Why are you so concerned with free markets?


Because it is stupid policy.  Because allowing old wounds to prevent better relations makes no sense.  Because allowing Americans to visit may spark even more freedoms.  Because having good relations with a country so close is a good thing. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 06:28:57 PM by JoeKitchen »
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Joe Kitchen
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3729 on: June 19, 2017, 07:27:52 PM »


Because it is stupid policy.  Because allowing old wounds to prevent better relations makes no sense.  Because allowing Americans to visit may spark even more freedoms.  Because having good relations with a country so close is a good thing. 
So let Raul show he's serious about change.  Let him return Chesimard and allow some personal freedoms at the same time Trump can change and allow more openings.  You just don't give things away and hope the other side responds.  There has to be good faith on both sides.  When you sell your services., do you just give in to the other sides demands?  Or do you negotiate, in good faith, a little give and take, and make a deal BOTH sides can live with. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3730 on: June 19, 2017, 09:33:33 PM »

So let Raul show he's serious about change.  Let him return Chesimard and allow some personal freedoms at the same time Trump can change and allow more openings.  You just don't give things away and hope the other side responds.  There has to be good faith on both sides.  When you sell your services., do you just give in to the other sides demands?  Or do you negotiate, in good faith, a little give and take, and make a deal BOTH sides can live with.

Well here is the thing, we did get something in return. 

Raul's policy changes in 2012 were most surely influenced by outside sources, especially considering he is a lifelong communist, and, since it can be rightly assumed talks between Obama and Raul began long before 2014, that source might have been Obama.

Not to mention, you are in the small minority (<25%) of people who actually want and think we can get something out of this. 

Let bygones be bygones.  We should move on and continue normalizing our relationship. 

By the way, do you think Americans should not be allowed to visit say Saudi Arabia?  Or North Korea?  Both have much worse track record with human rights. 

Even though I think it is foolish to visit North Korea, I would not restrict it. 
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Joe Kitchen
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3731 on: June 19, 2017, 11:07:52 PM »

Well here is the thing, we did get something in return. 

Raul's policy changes in 2012 were most surely influenced by outside sources, especially considering he is a lifelong communist, and, since it can be rightly assumed talks between Obama and Raul began long before 2014, that source might have been Obama.

Not to mention, you are in the small minority (<25%) of people who actually want and think we can get something out of this. 

Let bygones be bygones.  We should move on and continue normalizing our relationship. 

By the way, do you think Americans should not be allowed to visit say Saudi Arabia?  Or North Korea?  Both have much worse track record with human rights. 

Even though I think it is foolish to visit North Korea, I would not restrict it. 
There's a scene in The Godfather, where Generalissimo and President Batista, who was overthrown by Castro in real life, accepted a huge payments from the Corleone family of the Godfather to do gambling business in Cuba.  So now American companies will be making deals with Cuban companies to do business but with the military of Castro's government.  The true owners might appear to be non-military on the surface.  But you know it will be Castro and his cronies who actually control and own the front companies.  Trump is allowing that to continue.  Airlines and cruise ship will continue their operations.  So you really got what you want despite Trump's "tough" stand.

So in 57 years we've gone from Batista to Castro.  Nothing's changed.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3732 on: June 19, 2017, 11:42:38 PM »

Ok, back to Trump. Occasionally, anti-Trumpers can make some good humor:

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3733 on: June 20, 2017, 12:48:15 AM »

Meanwhile is seems the White House hopes that if they quit letting reporters actually record things, the bad news will go away? Yeah, they wish...

President Trump’s White House Media Blackout Has Reporters Talking Mutiny


This may be the empty briefing room of the future...

Quote
After Sean Spicer banned live broadcasts of press briefings, many long-suffering White House correspondents are openly wondering whether it’s worth the hassle anymore.

Nearly every president in office, at one time or another, is confronted with a near-impossible decision.

Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus. Truman relieving General MacArthur. Kennedy’s blockade of Cuba during the missile crisis. And now, the great question of President Donald Trump’s era: does he care more about his image? Or about his ratings?

The president’s unquenchable thirst for the attention of “the crooked media” and his ravenous hunger to punish them is the pushmi-pullyu of the Trump era—the political equivalent of what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. But as Trump’s faith in his press shop reportedly wears thinner with every briefing gone awry, the White House communications team appears ready to make the president’s choice for him.

On Monday, reporters were barred from broadcasting live video or audio during the afternoon White House press briefing, the second briefing at which journalists were explicitly banned from making audio broadcasts since the previous Thursday. Press secretary Sean Spicer, flanked by counselor Kellyanne Conway and former Apprentice agitator-turned-communications liaison Omarosa Manigault, explained that the president’s appearance earlier with the president of Panama was enough for the whole class to share.

Although it looks like we won't have Spicy to kick around much longer...seems he's being "promoted" up and off camera...the position of White House Press Secretary might be a tough one to find somebody who would be willing to work for Trump.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3734 on: June 20, 2017, 07:22:53 AM »

There's a scene in The Godfather, where Generalissimo and President Batista, who was overthrown by Castro in real life, accepted a huge payments from the Corleone family of the Godfather to do gambling business in Cuba.  So now American companies will be making deals with Cuban companies to do business but with the military of Castro's government.  The true owners might appear to be non-military on the surface.  But you know it will be Castro and his cronies who actually control and own the front companies.  Trump is allowing that to continue.  Airlines and cruise ship will continue their operations.  So you really got what you want despite Trump's "tough" stand.

So in 57 years we've gone from Batista to Castro.  Nothing's changed.

Mixing Hollywood with real life now?  You did read the recent articles on how the latest Churchill movie gets all the important parts wrong, so sorry if I can't help but question this. 

A lot has changed in 57 years; the Cubans are getting their economic freedom back.  Political change will come as this flourishes. 

I think you are also over looking that Castro retires in February. 
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Joe Kitchen
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3735 on: June 20, 2017, 08:06:48 AM »

Mixing Hollywood with real life now?  You did read the recent articles on how the latest Churchill movie gets all the important parts wrong, so sorry if I can't help but question this. 

A lot has changed in 57 years; the Cubans are getting their economic freedom back.  Political change will come as this flourishes. 

I think you are also over looking that Castro retires in February. 
What area you questioning?  It's been estimated that the Castro family and cronies have enriched themselves with 800-900 billion dollars over the years.   I believe Castro's son in law will take over after Raul.   Like I said,  it's like North Korea but warmer.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3736 on: June 20, 2017, 08:42:08 AM »

What area you questioning?  It's been estimated that the Castro family and cronies have enriched themselves with 800-900 billion dollars over the years.   I believe Castro's son in law will take over after Raul.   Like I said,  it's like North Korea but warmer.

You have no idea what you are talking about.  Your statement about Cuba being like North Korea but warmer shows your utter lack of knowledge on the subject.  Not to mention your arrogance is amazing since you have been to neither and I have been to one of them. 

In all your retorts, you have only provided the reasoning behind the embargo, that you approve of, is because we have axes to grind. 

I on the other hand recognize your policy has a 54 year track record of pure and utter failure and that it's time to try something else.  I also recognize that Cuba is beginning to go through a capitalist revolution and that now would be the time to get on board.   
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 09:03:07 AM by JoeKitchen »
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Joe Kitchen
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3737 on: June 20, 2017, 10:50:35 AM »

Joe,  I guess we just disagree about Cuba. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3738 on: June 20, 2017, 11:17:02 AM »

Australia is stopping its air operations against ISIS in Syria because of Russian threats. I hope they reconsider.  This must also disappoint the anti-Trumpers who want us to go toe-to-toe against Russia.  It'll make it harder for Trump to "collude" with them to make peace. 
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/20/middleeast/australia-syria-conflict/index.html
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3739 on: June 20, 2017, 11:55:17 AM »

The US should have returned him to Russia. 

but US didn't, did it ? so Cuba follows the example ...

and Luis Posada Carriles ?
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