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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 242553 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3660 on: June 19, 2017, 11:13:12 AM »

From a reference cited in a previous post.

First of all, I question the credability of any mental health care professional offering a professional opinion of someone they have neither examined nor reviewed the reports of anyone who has examined the person. This is what amateurs do, not professionals.

Second I question any ethical obligation to expose this type of information to the public. It is, in my opinion, actually unethical.

Third  IF, and that is a bigly if, these mental health care professionals can make a professional opinion based on simple observation and IF (another bigly if) there is an ethical obligation to release it to the public, then the same obligation needs to apply to all elected officials, not just one... And I don't think that is what anyone really wants.

We can all make our own layperson impressions and opinions of Trump based on how we choose to interpret what he says and his actions. Some may choose to interpret it positively, others may choose to interpret it negatively.  But health care professionals need to act according to the ethics of their profession.  To do otherwise puts their credibility in question.
I agree.  Their opinions are political not scientific. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3661 on: June 19, 2017, 11:51:06 AM »

Just to reiterate, Trump was doing what he promised his Cuban supporters.  It doesn't matter what others think,  It may or may not be a good or bad idea.  But if he didn't reverse Obama's action, people would just say "See, he even lies to his own supporters.  You just can't trust Trump."   

But also, we tell a lot of other countries how they should govern. Your argument we don't doesn't comport with what we actually do all the time.  Russia, Iran, North Korea as well as Cuba.  These all have  embargoes.  To blame America not trading with Cuba for their dictatorship isn't true.  Cuba has been trading with Canada, Europe etc.  Visitors from those countries have been going there for decades with no effect on Castro's control of the Cubans and hardly any economic advantage to the people.  I see the pictures of the 60 year old cars and decrepit old buildings.  They may make interesting photos for us photographers, but it just shows how Castro and Communism has held back a country and its people.  Most of the profits from tourism and trade goes to the Castro family, the military and his close associates who rule the roost.  The people get crap and will continue to get crap while Castro's and friends just get richer and secure their future control over the country.     The only difference between North Korea and Cuba is that Cuba is warm and has nice beaches.

And that's the problem. It worked with postwar Germany and Japan, but it failed miserably in Iraq, Afghanistan, and a few other countries.
You can't tell Russia how to run their country. American system just wouldn't work there.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3662 on: June 19, 2017, 12:22:28 PM »

You could not be more wrong considering the current estate of affairs. 

First, how is that wall coming along?  I was for Trump getting in, mainly due to his fiscal policy, and I could not be happier that his wall idea is failing.  I think the general electorate is a much bigger portion of the population then those whom would like us to return to a 54+ year policy of nothing but failure. 

Second, perhaps we do tell other countries how to govern, but we don't forbade citizens from going to any of them other then Cuba, even those with worse human rights violations.  Why is Cuba so special?  Also, why do we have the right to instruct others how to conduct themselves within their own country? 

Third, lets get serious on tourism; they have not be open for decades.  Tourism really only started to be accepted as a way to produce income after the USSR stopped being their cash cow, and it took a while for it to catch on.  So yes, everyone else has been visiting them for a while, but not in droves like you are implying. 

Also, no one spends more then Americans tourists, nor is any country closer (3 1/2 hour flight from Newark), so allowing Americans to tour the country is a huge plus for the hospitality industry, both private and public.  Americans will be more likely to visit and bring more money when they do then any other tourists.

Now I would be all for not allowing Americans to stay in military run hotels, since that would mean the moneys would go directly to the Cubans.  You could also forbade Americans from shopping in military run shops and restaurants, although that would be impossible to enforce. 

But forbidding all Americans from going will only take away from the Cuban people and the free market that is finally starting to flourish after 50 years. 

Third, when Raul Castro took over the country in 2012, he implemented many capitalistic reforms (which is interesting since it was he that was the communist, Fidel just wanted to get rid of Batista).  Of course, it took a little while for Cubans to start doing their own thing, but these reforms combined with Americans visiting have brought a great deal of wealth to the island, much of which is going to the average Cuban, not just the Castros. 

Your vision of what is going on in Cuba is nowhere near the reality of the situation. 

We should be embracing the Cuban people and preparing for Raul's retiring next February.  Making good with the new leader early will be the best chance we have of helping the Cuban people by influencing policy. 

This move is only going to make his successor more skeptical of us and help continue the same ideals of the past. 

Insofar as those in Miami, get over it!  At a certain time, one should cut their losses. 
Joe,  I just read this article and it appears that Castro made out a lot better than we did.  His reversal of Obama's measures are half hearted, more for show.  Many of them are being left in placed or modified.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/politics/cuba-trump-engagement-restrictions.html?_r=0

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3663 on: June 19, 2017, 12:46:35 PM »

Really? 

The article has nothing that supports your statement other then one quote from one Cuban.  A mere paragraph.  No evidence is shown at all. 

However, there is plenty within it that supports my side. 

Article after article is showing more free market activity in Cuba mainly due to American tourism and investment.  People are starting to make money in Cuba from the free market. 

In 54 years, this is the best thing that has happened to undermine communism on the island. 

This last clutch of a policy that has failed over and over again is going to due more harm then good. 

From your article, Senator Jeff Flake, Republican of Arizona, "By denying Americans the freedom to travel to Cuba, we will be denying them (Cuban people) customers, and they will be worse off." 
The following was extracted from the NY Times article:

"Still, Mr. Trump’s action allowed him to claim credit for taking a tough stand while leaving in place many of the changes made by Mr. Obama, which polls have shown are broadly supported, including by most Republicans.
Under the directive, embassies in Washington and Havana will stay open and cruises and direct flights between the United States and Cuba will be protected under an exception from the prohibition on transactions with military-controlled entities.
Nor does the measure affect the ability of Cuban-Americans to travel freely to the island and send money to relatives there, or a broad array of rules the Obama administration put in place aimed at making it easier for American companies to do business in Cuba."

Also, the one Cuban you motioned is the leader of the major opposition group, not some minor figure:

"But some Cuban dissidents who had backed Mr. Obama’s thaw in the hopes it would lead to greater openness on the island said the opposite had occurred. Among them was José Daniel Ferrer García, head of the Cuban Patriotic Union, the largest opposition group in Cuba, who was among the dissidents Mr. Obama met last year in Cuba.
“We believe that this is the moment for a maximum reversal of some policies that only benefit the Castro regime and does very little or nothing for the oppressed people,” Mr. Ferrer wrote in an open letter to Mr. Trump last week. “It is time to impose strong sanctions on the regime of Raúl Castro.”

In the end, Cuban Americans still have a lot of power here and their voice is more important since it effects them and their compatriots and relatives still living in Cuba. the most.  While the polls may indicate support for loosening, those people aren't Cuban or have as deep a concern for Cuba as Cuban Americans. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3664 on: June 19, 2017, 12:59:46 PM »

What changed in Cuban governance since Obama changed the policy?  Nothing.  They're no more freer.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3665 on: June 19, 2017, 03:21:10 PM »

The only difference between North Korea and Cuba is that Cuba is warm and has nice beaches.

And you, having apparently visited neither, are the authority on this?

“Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance…”
― H.L. Mencken, Notes on Democracy
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3666 on: June 19, 2017, 03:47:05 PM »

I think this site contradicts your premise, and it also provide evidence of such. 

https://www.engagecuba.org/cubas-private-sector/
Many changes made by Castro predates Obama's policy changes.   The Cuban economy is a disaster.  They know they have to change economic policies.  If they want to improve it even more,  let them provide additional freedoms before we give them more carrots.   Also,  let them return Chesimard to us who killed a number of state troopers from New Jersey where live.   Although I'm not Cuban,  I have as axe to grind also.  Castro is protecting her, a murderer.

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3667 on: June 19, 2017, 04:23:50 PM »

Many changes made by Castro predates Obama's policy changes.   The Cuban economy is a disaster.  They know they have to change economic policies.  If they want to improve it even more,  let them provide additional freedoms before we give them more carrots.   Also,  let them return Chesimard to us who killed a number of state troopers from New Jersey where live.   Although I'm not Cuban,  I have as axe to grind also.  Castro is protecting her, a murderer.

a citizen of country that was shielding Brazinskas' is righteously whining about Chesimard ? hilarious !
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3668 on: June 19, 2017, 05:12:56 PM »

Joe, he's keeping his campaign promise regarding Cuba.  That small group helped him win Florida and the election. 
Not really, Trump overwhelmingly won the Panhandle area in Florida.  The anti=Castro votes in the Miami area are really rather small these days.  ONe of the big anti-Castro members of Congress, Ros-Lehtinen is retiring as her district is now swinging to the Dems and she voted against the Republican healthcare bill.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3669 on: June 19, 2017, 05:56:20 PM »

Don't be foolish Alan. 

Are you seriously suggesting that Raul, the devout communist, the one who convinced Fidel to implement communism and socialize the whole economy, just came up with his reforms on his own?  That he suddenly had a change in heart? 

Also you seriously suggesting that talks between him and Obama did not occur long before the 2014 thawing and that maybe Obama was an influence on Raul's reforms?  And that maybe, due to negotiations, Obama could not claim part of them. 

The Cuban state economy is a disaster, but there is a free market revolution starting.  It's really sad to see so many fanboys ready to piss that away just because Trump says so.  I may have been for Trump over HRC due to fiscal concerns and over regulations, but I will not idly approve of all his policies, especially when they lack all reason and evidence of working. 

I am glad to see republicans voice their opposition to this foolish policy that has a 54 year track record of failure. 

Insofar as Chesimard, you really need to learn to cut your losses at a certain point.  Move on, get over it, and you're a New Yorker that now lives in NJ. 

And by the way, you have provided nothing but ideas that, on top of this, have 54 years of proof against them working.  My side of the argument has proof of our ideas working and improving the Cuban economy. 
Yes I'm a New Yorker that moved to NJ 4 years ago.  But as a New Yorker living miles from the killing and with Chesimard very much in  the news at the time, it put all people in the NY Metro area with a lot of hate for her.  She held up banks in the Bronx where I grew up.  She and her Black Liberation Party terrorist cohorts held up banks in Queens where I lived for over 40 years.  She also attacked NYPD police with a hand grenade two miles from my home in Queens, NYC.  You're very nonchalant about it which isn't right.   

I have no idea what you mean when you say cut my loses.  What does that even mean?  I'm not losing anything when the President is tough on the Communist Cuban regime that protected Chesimard.  So you're saying screw the families of the cops, who cares that this women killed them that she escaped from jail 35 years ago?    She has a $1 million reward on her head from the FBI.  She was sentenced to life in prison and escaped to Cuba where Fidel gave her political asylum. If Raul wants us to help economically, let them return her. 
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3670 on: June 19, 2017, 06:10:50 PM »

a citizen of country that was shielding Brazinskas' is righteously whining about Chesimard ? hilarious !
The US should have returned him to Russia.  At least there's poetic justice.  His son who helped him hijack the plane, shot and killed him years later in an argument. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3671 on: June 19, 2017, 06:20:12 PM »

In so many words, yes, that is exactly what I am saying to your Red Herring of an argument on not opening diplomatic relations with Cuba. 

It happened in 1977, another era, and I could care less about some trivial event, albeit a tragedy, that happened 40 years ago.

What I care about is allowing free markets to do their job, which they are doing in Cuba. 

The one thing that has finally happened in 54 years that is undermining the regime you want to nix because of someone whom you don't know was murdered two generations ago. 
Joe, she's still alive.  She's been living high off the hog down there for 35 years with Castro using her as a foil, rubbing our noses in it for all that time.  All you seem to be concerned with is getting Americans on cruise ship to Havana so they can enjoy vacationing in the Caribbean.   I wonder why you're so strong on this?  Is there some business or monetary thing going on that you would benefit from closer ties? Why are you so concerned with free markets? 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3672 on: June 19, 2017, 07:27:52 PM »


Because it is stupid policy.  Because allowing old wounds to prevent better relations makes no sense.  Because allowing Americans to visit may spark even more freedoms.  Because having good relations with a country so close is a good thing. 
So let Raul show he's serious about change.  Let him return Chesimard and allow some personal freedoms at the same time Trump can change and allow more openings.  You just don't give things away and hope the other side responds.  There has to be good faith on both sides.  When you sell your services., do you just give in to the other sides demands?  Or do you negotiate, in good faith, a little give and take, and make a deal BOTH sides can live with. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3673 on: June 19, 2017, 11:07:52 PM »

Well here is the thing, we did get something in return. 

Raul's policy changes in 2012 were most surely influenced by outside sources, especially considering he is a lifelong communist, and, since it can be rightly assumed talks between Obama and Raul began long before 2014, that source might have been Obama.

Not to mention, you are in the small minority (<25%) of people who actually want and think we can get something out of this. 

Let bygones be bygones.  We should move on and continue normalizing our relationship. 

By the way, do you think Americans should not be allowed to visit say Saudi Arabia?  Or North Korea?  Both have much worse track record with human rights. 

Even though I think it is foolish to visit North Korea, I would not restrict it. 
There's a scene in The Godfather, where Generalissimo and President Batista, who was overthrown by Castro in real life, accepted a huge payments from the Corleone family of the Godfather to do gambling business in Cuba.  So now American companies will be making deals with Cuban companies to do business but with the military of Castro's government.  The true owners might appear to be non-military on the surface.  But you know it will be Castro and his cronies who actually control and own the front companies.  Trump is allowing that to continue.  Airlines and cruise ship will continue their operations.  So you really got what you want despite Trump's "tough" stand.

So in 57 years we've gone from Batista to Castro.  Nothing's changed.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3674 on: June 19, 2017, 11:42:38 PM »

Ok, back to Trump. Occasionally, anti-Trumpers can make some good humor:
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3675 on: June 20, 2017, 12:48:15 AM »

Meanwhile is seems the White House hopes that if they quit letting reporters actually record things, the bad news will go away? Yeah, they wish...

President Trump’s White House Media Blackout Has Reporters Talking Mutiny


This may be the empty briefing room of the future...

Quote
After Sean Spicer banned live broadcasts of press briefings, many long-suffering White House correspondents are openly wondering whether it’s worth the hassle anymore.

Nearly every president in office, at one time or another, is confronted with a near-impossible decision.

Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus. Truman relieving General MacArthur. Kennedy’s blockade of Cuba during the missile crisis. And now, the great question of President Donald Trump’s era: does he care more about his image? Or about his ratings?

The president’s unquenchable thirst for the attention of “the crooked media” and his ravenous hunger to punish them is the pushmi-pullyu of the Trump era—the political equivalent of what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. But as Trump’s faith in his press shop reportedly wears thinner with every briefing gone awry, the White House communications team appears ready to make the president’s choice for him.

On Monday, reporters were barred from broadcasting live video or audio during the afternoon White House press briefing, the second briefing at which journalists were explicitly banned from making audio broadcasts since the previous Thursday. Press secretary Sean Spicer, flanked by counselor Kellyanne Conway and former Apprentice agitator-turned-communications liaison Omarosa Manigault, explained that the president’s appearance earlier with the president of Panama was enough for the whole class to share.

Although it looks like we won't have Spicy to kick around much longer...seems he's being "promoted" up and off camera...the position of White House Press Secretary might be a tough one to find somebody who would be willing to work for Trump.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3676 on: June 20, 2017, 08:06:48 AM »

Mixing Hollywood with real life now?  You did read the recent articles on how the latest Churchill movie gets all the important parts wrong, so sorry if I can't help but question this. 

A lot has changed in 57 years; the Cubans are getting their economic freedom back.  Political change will come as this flourishes. 

I think you are also over looking that Castro retires in February. 
What area you questioning?  It's been estimated that the Castro family and cronies have enriched themselves with 800-900 billion dollars over the years.   I believe Castro's son in law will take over after Raul.   Like I said,  it's like North Korea but warmer.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3677 on: June 20, 2017, 10:50:35 AM »

Joe,  I guess we just disagree about Cuba. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3678 on: June 20, 2017, 11:17:02 AM »

Australia is stopping its air operations against ISIS in Syria because of Russian threats. I hope they reconsider.  This must also disappoint the anti-Trumpers who want us to go toe-to-toe against Russia.  It'll make it harder for Trump to "collude" with them to make peace. 
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/20/middleeast/australia-syria-conflict/index.html

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3679 on: June 20, 2017, 11:55:17 AM »

The US should have returned him to Russia. 

but US didn't, did it ? so Cuba follows the example ...

and Luis Posada Carriles ?
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