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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 204550 times)

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3640 on: June 18, 2017, 02:48:35 PM »

And already allienated the whole world against himself and USA.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said Europe must take control of its fate, because they can't rely anymore on USA. This will be a busy and eventful week for Europe.
On Monday, they will start the Brexit negotiations and on Thursday and Friday the European heads of the states will convene at the EU summit in Brussels.

And the exit polls today indicate a ginormous victory for Emmanuel Macron's party, from 0 to in the order of 61%. Macron and Merkel seem to get along fine, no white-knuckle handshakes needed.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 04:53:43 PM by BartvanderWolf »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3641 on: June 18, 2017, 07:46:12 PM »

This morning I read an interesting article in a local newspaper that tried to explain why Trump voters keep defending him, despite logic telling them that it will even hurt their cause (lower income, more cost, higher taxes, and more violent division in society). Logic and knowledge have nothing to do with it anymore, feelings are dominant, even if people know better than to hurt themselves.

It's not a new phenomenon, we have a similar group of voters in my country. They too, contribute very little positive to society.

There's actually been a lot written about what you are referring to...it's called the Dunning–Kruger effect and Trump supporters are NOT going to be happy about it, but, if the shoe fits...

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In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias, wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority when they mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.

As described by David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[1] Hence, the corollary to the Dunning–Kruger effect indicates that persons of high-ability tend to underestimate their relative competence, and erroneously presume that tasks that are easy for them to perform also are easy for other people to perform.

Although the Dunning–Kruger effect was formulated in 1999, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority has been referred to in literature throughout history.

Now, I'm not saying all Trump supporters fall under the Dunning–Kruger effect explanation. There are plenty of really smart people who seem to be Trump supporters but it's clear that a large number of Trump supporters do...

But there are more aspects to Trump supporters as outlined by this Psychology Today article: The Psychology Behind Donald Trump's Unwavering Support

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There’s no doubt that Donald Trump has said many things that would have been political suicide for any other Republican candidate. And almost every time he made one of these shocking statements, political analysts on both the left and the right predicted that he’d lose supporters because of it. But as we have clearly seen over the past year, they were dead wrong every time. Trump appears to be almost totally bulletproof. 

The only thing that might be more perplexing than the psychology of Donald Trump is the psychology of his supporters. In their eyes, The Donald can do no wrong. Even Trump himself seems to be astonished by this phenomenon. "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's, like, incredible."

The article mentions the The Dunning-Kruger Effect as well as Hypersensitivity to Threat, Terror Management Theory and High Attentional Engagement.

The article is really accurate with the description of the phenomenal success of Trump's campaign. But as we've seen since he's taken office, that success has not been able to be transferred to governing and likely won't because if the very factors that gave rise to Trump's support in the first place...a bunch of angry white folk don't really want to talk and engage with people with different ideas (which was the difference in the race).

I just hope we learn something from this lesson in civics, if you care about the way our country is governed, you would do well to actually friggin' vote when you have the chance. 92 million people sat on the sidelines and let a wing nut get into the White House.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 07:52:08 PM by Schewe »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3642 on: June 18, 2017, 08:37:45 PM »

Trump got trumped :~)

TEACHER TOOK 'SASSY' PICTURE WITH DONALD TRUMP TO HIGHLIGHT GAY PRIDE BECAUSE TRUMP WON'T



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Rhode Island’s teacher of the year saw his face-to-face meeting with Donald Trump go viral after taking a “sassy” picture with the president.

Nikos Giannopoulos, 29, visited the White House after being named the state’s teacher of the year, and whipped out a lace fan to strike a pose during his photo opportunity.

Despite the president failing to acknowledge June as Pride month in the United States, and picking a vice-president with a dubious record on LGBTQ rights, Giannopoulos managed to make his picture with Trump as gay friendly as possible.

The teacher of the year sported a rainbow pin during his visit, which he said was intended “to represent my gratitude for the LGBTQ community,” and paired it with a gold necklace and the fan, which he said was to “celebrate the joy and freedom of gender nonconformity,” in a post on his Facebook page.

Asked how Trump reacted to the fan, Giannopoulos told NPR: “Oh, he loved it!”

He added: “I popped it open when I walked into the office because I’m a very sassy person. And Trump complimented it right away. He said, ‘I love the fan!’ And he told me I had great style. Then, when I was ushered in for my private photo with the president and Melania, I was told I should put it away. So I just folded it up and held it at my side. But when it came time for the photo, I just asked the president, ‘Do you mind if I use the fan for the photo?’ He said, ‘Absolutely go for it.’ So I popped my fan and did my pose.”

It’s not often that a citizen manages to steal the limelight from the president in a single photo, but Giannopoulos’ picture proves it’s possible–and has been widely shared on the internet.

But it would be useful if Trump would do what has been done in the recent past and issue a proclamation for Pride Month...maybe it's because Obama started it that Trump is refusing to do so?

Trump’s failure to issue Pride Month proclamation called ‘deeply disappointing’

Quote
President Donald Trump has yet to issue a proclamation for Pride Month, breaking a recent tradition that Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender advocacy groups call “deeply disappointing” but not entirely surprising.

June is historically recognized as LGBT Pride Month. Former President Barack Obama issued a federal proclamation every year dating back to 2011, according to White House archives.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3643 on: June 18, 2017, 09:29:54 PM »

Well up until now, as a fiscal conservative, I have been somewhat pleased with some financial policies, but indifferent towards most anything else. 

However, Trump's rollback on Cuba is indefensible, and nothing more then a ploy to garner political points amongst a very small percentage of the population. 

I have been to Cuba, and I very much want to go back.  More then likely I can now qualify as a journalist since I am a full time photographer.  Most though will not have that luxury. 

In an effort to stop moneys from going to the military, which I would support, the ban on individual people-to-people travel will do nothing more then increase the military's influence over the economy.  The private sector in Cuba has grown fairly rapidly to 40%, largely due to American tourism.  A big plus for free market ideals, capitalism, improvements in living conditions, and a step closer to free elections, much like Nixon's opening of China did. 

This policy will do nothing more then cause the free market to contract, the military's power to increase and lower the quality of life.  And, of course, their leaders will use this as propaganda. 
Joe, he's keeping his campaign promise regarding Cuba.  That small group helped him win Florida and the election.  Also, there's nothing stopping Castro from doing a few good things like returning murderer Chesimard back to the US.  How about if he actually gave some freedom to the Cuban people before we give back to some of the giveaways Obama did.  Obama just gave them away without anything in return for the Cuban people or us.  Of course, Raul might not now trade these things.  But, he certainly won't do them if we let these giveaways stand.   
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3644 on: June 18, 2017, 09:34:25 PM »

So totally beside the truth, everything, I wouldn't know where to start, and even then it's probably a waste of my time. This morning I read an interesting article in a local newspaper that tried to explain why Trump voters keep defending him, despite logic telling them that it will even hurt their cause (lower income, more cost, higher taxes, and more violent division in society). Logic and knowledge have nothing to do with it anymore, feelings are dominant, even if people know better than to hurt themselves.

It's not a new phenomenon, we have a similar group of voters in my country. They too, contribute very little positive to society.

Cheers,
Bart
So what's beside the truth?  Go ahead and start to explain why my points of what Trump has done internationally are not good, for America and the world include the EU.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3645 on: June 18, 2017, 09:37:35 PM »

And already allienated the whole world against himself and USA.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said Europe must take control of its fate, because they can't rely anymore on USA. This will be a busy and eventful week for Europe.
On Monday, they will start the Brexit negotiations and on Thursday and Friday the European heads of the states will convene at the EU summit in Brussels.


Good.  I hope they increase their defense budget and defend themselves. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3646 on: June 18, 2017, 09:43:01 PM »

There's actually been a lot written about what you are referring to...it's called the Dunning–Kruger effect and Trump supporters are NOT going to be happy about it, but, if the shoe fits...

Now, I'm not saying all Trump supporters fall under the Dunning–Kruger effect explanation. There are plenty of really smart people who seem to be Trump supporters but it's clear that a large number of Trump supporters do...

But there are more aspects to Trump supporters as outlined by this Psychology Today article: The Psychology Behind Donald Trump's Unwavering Support

The article mentions the The Dunning-Kruger Effect as well as Hypersensitivity to Threat, Terror Management Theory and High Attentional Engagement.

The article is really accurate with the description of the phenomenal success of Trump's campaign. But as we've seen since he's taken office, that success has not been able to be transferred to governing and likely won't because if the very factors that gave rise to Trump's support in the first place...a bunch of angry white folk don't really want to talk and engage with people with different ideas (which was the difference in the race).

I just hope we learn something from this lesson in civics, if you care about the way our country is governed, you would do well to actually friggin' vote when you have the chance. 92 million people sat on the sidelines and let a wing nut get into the White House.
You just can't get over the fact that Hillary lost.  Carrying resentments is debilitating according to psychologists.  I hope you get over it soon.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3647 on: June 18, 2017, 10:16:40 PM »

... Chancellor Angela Merkel said Europe must take control of its fate, because they can't rely anymore on USA...

Gee... what took you so long? Like a dork who still lives in his parent's basement? ;)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3648 on: June 18, 2017, 10:23:44 PM »

Ah, you people of "high ability"... so able to lose an election that any idiot could have won. Wait, scratch that last part :D

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3649 on: June 18, 2017, 10:31:21 PM »

Gee... what took you so long? Like a dork who still lives in his parent's basement? ;)

Well, it's one thing to work together with a strong partner in an assisting role, the other getting fed up with an unpredictable one.
In the latter case, it's definitely better not to be dependent on an erratic ally and assume the full control of own commerce and defense.
Actually, I don't think Germany is concerned too much, it's the small countries like Baltics, Finland or Slovakia which worry most.
 
Watch Germany and Russia coming closer together. On the other hand, we've seen a similar movie before and it did not end well.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:01:47 PM by LesPalenik »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3650 on: June 18, 2017, 11:05:31 PM »

Well, it's one thing to work together with a strong partner in an assisting role, the other getting fed up with an unpredictable one.
In the latter case, it's definitely better not to be dependent on an erratic ally and assume the full control of own commerce and defense.
Actually, I don't think Germany is concerned too much, it's the small countries like Baltics, Finland or Slovakia which worry most.
 
Watch Germany and Russia coming closer together. On the other hand, we've seen a similar movie before and it did not end well.
Les, that's a two-way street.  If Europe doesn't pull its weight because it's not meeting its defense requirements, that Europe becomes unpredictable. What America is saying is come on fellows.  We support each other but you have to meet your obligations.  Saying you'll meet them in 2024 isn't good enough. 

I do agree with that "movie" though.  But, do you really think that Germany and Russia could really be pals? 
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LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3651 on: June 18, 2017, 11:24:34 PM »

Les, that's a two-way street.  If Europe doesn't pull its weight because it's not meeting its defense requirements, that Europe becomes unpredictable. What America is saying is come on fellows.  We support each other but you have to meet your obligations.  Saying you'll meet them in 2024 isn't good enough. 

I do agree with that "movie" though.  But, do you really think that Germany and Russia could really be pals?

I think the NATO obligations could be worked out to mutual satisfaction if all partners behaved in a responsible and respectable way.

As to the Molotow-Ribbentrop pact, it did not make Stalin and Hitler exactly pals, but they divided clearly their spheres of interest which worked for them for a few years. The historians will be analyzing many details which are not noticed or publicized right now and drawing all kinds of conclusions for the next few years.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:29:13 PM by LesPalenik »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3652 on: June 18, 2017, 11:26:16 PM »

You just can't get over the fact that Hillary lost.  Carrying resentments is debilitating according to psychologists.  I hope you get over it soon.

Hum, typical Trumpian deflection...rather than address the message, attack the messenger.

And interesting that you bring up psychologists...here's what Psychology Today is saying about Trump more recently...

Shrinks Define Dangers of Trump Presidency



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Mental health experts begin carving out a new role for unprecedented times.

Donald Trump may or may not be mentally ill. He may or may not have an organic brain disease. Despite those unknowns, a group of prominent mental health professionals today agreed that they have an ethical obligation to expose to the public every instance of reality distortion, impulsive decision-making, and violation of presidential norms of behavior that singularize the Trump presidency.

At a conference held at Yale University Medical School and led by Bandy Lee, assistant clinical professor in law and psychiatry, mental health experts met to discuss whether their professional responsibility includes a duty to warn the public of dangers posed by President Trump’s behavior. For them the issue is no longer what psychiatric diagnosis Donald Trump merits or not. It is how to avert the "malignant normality"—as psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton called it—now threatening American democracy.

But the conference itself exemplified the unusual problems created by the 45th president. Even in organizing the gathering, Lee said, she encountered “a sudden wave of fear" that led to withdrawal of official support from the school of public health and the department of psychiatry, where she specializes in studying and treating violent offenders and preventing violence. "Colleagues are concerned about the repercussions of speaking,” she observed, because they lack legal protections from a president who has demonstrated his willingness to publicly target those who say something he doesn't like.

Further, ever since 1973, mental health experts have been professionally restrained by the Goldwater Rule from commenting on the mental fitness of any person they have not personally examined. Although the rule was established by the American Psychiatric Association and psychologists are not expressly forbidden from making public pronouncements about the mental health of public figures, the American Psychological Association has affirmed the rule and psychologists generally abide by it.

But, by all means, stick your head in the sand and keep telling yourself that Trump is doing a fine job and it's just all the liberals who are still morning the loss of Hillary that is causing all the problems for Trump. Russia didn't influence our election? #FAKENEWS The liberal biased MSM is telling lies? #FAKENEWS Climate science is bogus? #FAKENEWS Coal miners will get their jobs back? #FAKESNEWS Obama wiretapped Trump Tower? #FAKENEWS

Ironically, my mental health is actually rather good in no small part because I find it therapeutic to point out the problems Trump and the GOP are causing our country and the world. I'm not the one yelling at my TV...I'm actually rather amused by the TV news these days :~)
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3653 on: June 18, 2017, 11:26:56 PM »

Ah, you people of "high ability"... so able to lose an election that any idiot could have won. Wait, scratch that last part :D

Thanks to the Russians...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3654 on: June 18, 2017, 11:45:27 PM »

Hum, typical Trumpian deflection...rather than address the message, attack the messenger.

And interesting that you bring up psychologists...here's what Psychology Today is saying about Trump more recently...

But, by all means, stick your head in the sand and keep telling yourself that Trump is doing a fine job and it's just all the liberals who are still morning the loss of Hillary that is causing all the problems for Trump. Russia didn't influence our election? #FAKENEWS The liberal biased MSM is telling lies? #FAKENEWS Climate science is bogus? #FAKENEWS Coal miners will get their jobs back? #FAKESNEWS Obama wiretapped Trump Tower? #FAKENEWS

Ironically, my mental health is actually rather good in no small part because I find it therapeutic to point out the problems Trump and the GOP are causing our country and the world. I'm not the one yelling at my TV...I'm actually rather amused by the TV news these days :~)
There's nothing wrong with my mental health either.  But I tell you.  I keep hearing clicks on my phone and think someone is tapping my line.  It must be one of Obama's left-over supporters in the deep state.  I wish Trump would get rid of those guys once and for all.   
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3655 on: June 19, 2017, 01:18:05 AM »

It must be one of Obama's left-over supporters in the deep state.  I wish Trump would get rid of those guys once and for all.   

Well, in a somewhat ironic twist, it seems Donny & The Admins (I should TM that) are having a hard time finding people to work for them...

White House Faces Talent Shortage Thanks to Wariness of Trump: Report


You’d think a CEO would know a lot more about the dangers of toxic company culture.
Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images


Quote
The Trump administration’s penchant for chaos, controversy, and legal uncertainty is hurting its ability to recruit Republican talent to help it run the government, according to a new report in the Washington Post. Almost 30 Republican operators who have been approached about taking jobs in the administration have told the Post that they have turned down or are leaning against the opportunities, citing anxiety about Trump’s temperament and his record of disloyalty and mistreatment toward his senior staff. Some have even consulted professional headhunters over whether or not working with Trump could cause permanent damage to their reputations, or are worried about potential legal expenses down the line should current or future scandals require as much. Ultimately, it seems the typical sacrifices that GOP job candidates would normally be more than willing to make in exchange for the pomp and prestige of working in the White House are no longer worth it for many.

The White House denies that they are having any problems sourcing talent, of course. Press Secretary Sean Spicer even made it sound like they were, in fact, overwhelmed with interest. “I have people knocking down my door to talk to the presidential personnel office,” he claimed in response to the story.

According to the Post’s sources, however, the only jobs the White House hasn’t had trouble filling are mid- and entry-level positions, but not for the top roles that require more discerning and experienced candidates. In addition, the Trump administration has already set a historically slow pace when it comes to even trying to fill out the federal government. White House hiring efforts have increased over the past few months, but they are still far behind the pace set by the last two presidential administrations. The Trump administration, for instance, has less than one-third of the confirmed appointees for senior posts that the Obama administration had by this point. Furthermore, the White House has yet to nominate candidates for 415 key administration positions out of a total of 558 requiring Senate confirmation.

I know Bannon wanted to destroy Washington as we knew it but I didn't think it would be by simply not hiring staff. But even if they did want to hire people, who would want Donald J Trump as a boss?
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3656 on: June 19, 2017, 02:16:32 AM »

If Europe doesn't pull its weight because it's not meeting its defense requirements, that Europe becomes unpredictable.
Europe is meeting its agreed NATO obligation so there is no unpredictability on this side. The unpredictability comes from Trump who misrepresents what was agreed. The worst thing is he doesn't do that for the whole USA, but only for himself and a couple of close moguls in the defense industry.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3657 on: June 19, 2017, 07:24:40 AM »

I tend to side with Joe on Cuba.

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3658 on: June 19, 2017, 08:38:03 AM »

From a reference cited in a previous post.

Quote
  a group of prominent mental health professionals today agreed that they have an ethical obligation to expose to the public every instance of reality distortion, impulsive decision-making, and violation of presidential norms of behavior that singularize the Trump presidency.

First of all, I question the credability of any mental health care professional offering a professional opinion of someone they have neither examined nor reviewed the reports of anyone who has examined the person. This is what amateurs do, not professionals.

Second I question any ethical obligation to expose this type of information to the public. It is, in my opinion, actually unethical.

Third  IF, and that is a bigly if, these mental health care professionals can make a professional opinion based on simple observation and IF (another bigly if) there is an ethical obligation to release it to the public, then the same obligation needs to apply to all elected officials, not just one... And I don't think that is what anyone really wants.

We can all make our own layperson impressions and opinions of Trump based on how we choose to interpret what he says and his actions. Some may choose to interpret it positively, others may choose to interpret it negatively.  But health care professionals need to act according to the ethics of their profession.  To do otherwise puts their credibility in question.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3659 on: June 19, 2017, 11:09:11 AM »

Sorry Alan, I don't buy it.

We are for freedom and free markets and this move does nothing buts hurts the Cuban people and free markets.  When I was there in January, I saw the beginnings of a thriving free market, very much brought on by American tourism.  This free market certainly undermines the government since it so successful, and the best way to chip away at the regime. 

Now it will contract due to this move. 

I could support restrictions on Americans dealing with military run businesses, but cutting off Cuba to Americans will only hurt the Cuban people and increase the Regime's control. 

Also, this is not a split issue like most things.  75% of the country want better relations with Cuba and the ability to visit.  Not to mention we have 54+ years of experience with the embargo, and guess what, it has done nothing. 

Absolutely nothing! 

This is a decision based on no logic, but on the emotions of a small group of people in FL. 

Not to mention we deal with countries that have much worse human rights records.  We, rightly so, don't tell them how to govern.  We should have no business lecturing Cuba either. 
Just to reiterate, Trump was doing what he promised his Cuban supporters.  It doesn't matter what others think,  It may or may not be a good or bad idea.  But if he didn't reverse Obama's action, people would just say "See, he even lies to his own supporters.  You just can't trust Trump."   

 But also, we tell a lot of other countries how they should govern.  Your argument we don't doesn't comport with what we actually do all the time.  Russia, Iran, North Korea as well as Cuba.  These all have  embargoes.  To blame America not trading with Cuba for their dictatorship isn't true.  Cuba has been trading with Canada, Europe etc.  Visitors from those countries have been going there for decades with no effect on Castro's control of the Cubans and hardly any economic advantage to the people.  I see the pictures of the 60 year old cars and decrepit old buildings.  They may make interesting photos for us photographers, but it just shows how Castro and Communism has held back a country and its people.  Most of the profits from tourism and trade goes to the Castro family, the military and his close associates who rule the roost.  The people get crap and will continue to get crap while Castro's and friends just get richer and secure their future control over the country.     The only difference between North Korea and Cuba is that Cuba is warm and has nice beaches. 
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