Trump II

[Alan Klein]

Another classic technique of the Trump supporter is use of the false equivalence. I am not claiming that I am a self-made, a brilliant businessman, or a job creator...nor am I running for political office using that as a basis for qualification. Comparing me to Trump serves no purpose and is literally and figuratively irrelevant.

My intent is to illustrate a pattern, as I did with a previous response to you, that the Trump and pro-Trump supporters engage in routinely: make a claim, and then shift the goalposts when that claim is shown to be false, a lie, BS, choose your adjective.

OK so let's skip the thousands of jobs he's created as a goalpost of his success.  Forbes calculates he's worth over $3 billion.  Is that a better goalpost?

Here's a breakdown of his wealth.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferwang/2016/09/28/the-definitive-look-at-donald-trumps-wealth-new/#459a88b87e2d

[Alan Klein]

I never said real estate development was unworthy (and certainly in this day one cannot discriminate thanks to the Civil Rights legislation of the LBJ era).  I just said that it was different which is a factual statement.  Developers have to take chances and there are lots of examples of real estate developers going bankrupt because they have misread the market and certainly Trump had a brush with this.  I also complement him on building a global brand even though the brand generates licensing fees and employment is not as robust compared the real estate development.  I hope this answer is satisfactory.

Yes it is satisfactory.  But if I may mention something that I noticed.  When I read your parenthetical sentence, I thought you were saying that it's against Civil Rights legislation to say real estate people were unworthy.   Now why would a nice guy like you say such a thing?  So I read it again and realized you must be referring to other types of discrimination.  But your conflating the two ideas was confusing at first. 

That's what Trump does.  All the time.  He states two things and people just put it together like the issue of Sweden.  OF course, I know you and like you so I try to figure out what you really meant.  The media of course does not do that.  They deliberately conflate two of his thoughts to be related in ways he did not mean just so they can create "fake news".  But just like you  were plainly speaking, so does he. 

One suggestion.  If you ever run for President, you'll have to stop conflating ideas like that. 

[Alan Goldhammer]

OK so let's skip the thousands of jobs he's created as a goalpost of his success.  Forbes calculates he's worth over $3 billion.  Is that a better goalpost?

Here's a breakdown of his wealth.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferwang/2016/09/28/the-definitive-look-at-donald-trumps-wealth-new/#459a88b87e2d

I read this when it was published.  It's most instructive to read the narrative attached to each of the real estate holdings.  Some of these were new construction but a lot were just purchases of existing buildings.  I always found the fact that he had to be bailed out by Chinese banks a little humorous given the anti-China rhetoric on the campaign trail and now in office.  Some of the space owned are only lease rights or parts of buildings.  The 'fact' is nobody should think that Trump owns lots of buildings as he does not.  I'm unsure whether the ownership of 13 golf courses should be considered a productive use of money in terms of people employed as upkeep of a golf course does not require 100s of people.  It also should be noted that the Stark property in South Carolina has an interesting history as President Trump had to bail out his son who originally bought the property perhaps not aware of the environmental contamination issues.  Some more interesting history of this site is HERE.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Yes it is satisfactory.  But if I may mention something that I noticed.  When I read your parenthetical sentence, I thought you were saying that it's against Civil Rights legislation to say real estate people were unworthy.   

There was no conflation but perhaps an awkward statement that many real estate developers discriminated against Blacks and other minorities prior to the Fair Housing Laws.  In 1949 my late father was looking for land in San Diego to build a house for the family.  His Greek partner in the architectural firm found a nice plot of land in La Jolla and suggested to my dad that he look there as well.  Unfortunately Jews were not welcome in La Jolla and property could not be purchased there.  This state of affairs pretty much continued until the late 1950 when a University of California campus and the Salk Institute for Biological Studies both located on the Torrey Pines bluff.  A large number of Jewish scientists were recruited by both institutions and they wanted to live close by.  this and a courageous real estate developer who broke ranks with his fellow La Jollans broke the ban.  It's also worth noting that Trump and his father Fred were sued for discrimination under the Fair Housing Act in the early 1970s.  Just as with the recent settlements with the banks that were responsible for the financial meltdown, this case was settled with no admission of guilt.

[Alan Klein]

I read this when it was published.  It's most instructive to read the narrative attached to each of the real estate holdings.  Some of these were new construction but a lot were just purchases of existing buildings.  I always found the fact that he had to be bailed out by Chinese banks a little humorous given the anti-China rhetoric on the campaign trail and now in office.  Some of the space owned are only lease rights or parts of buildings.  The 'fact' is nobody should think that Trump owns lots of buildings as he does not.  I'm unsure whether the ownership of 13 golf courses should be considered a productive use of money in terms of people employed as upkeep of a golf course does not require 100s of people.  It also should be noted that the Stark property in South Carolina has an interesting history as President Trump had to bail out his son who originally bought the property perhaps not aware of the environmental contamination issues.  Some more interesting history of this site is HERE.

I think you now agreed that real estate development was an honorable profession.  Ok so now you're saying that his golf course development is not honorable because it's "...not a productive use of money."  Well, many golfers would disagree with you.  Anyway it's not your money and who are you to decide what's a productive investment? 

What investments have you made that are productive to America?  You mentioned earlier you bought some Whirlpool stock.  Well Whirlpool makes a lot of their products in foreign factories where foreigners, not Americans,  are employed.  Well that's your business and I'll defend it just as you should defend Trump's right to invest as he sees fit.  This is America after all. 

Regarding, Trump's "sleazy" business practices, I agree he does that.  I had a small specialty contracting firm in NYC for 20 years mostly working in Manhattan.  I once got stiffed by a real estate developer, not Trump. It taught me a lot in how to protect myself.  He's also admitted to making contributions to people like the Clinton's for political protection so you can get things done when you need too.  He plays in a rough and tumble business.  The people who elected him understand this and wanted someone tough, who knows how to fight, not like Obama.  Good practice for being President when you have to deal with terror regimes, killer leaders, the media and Democrats. 

[Schewe]

OK so let's skip the thousands of jobs he's created as a goalpost of his success.

One goal post is how many little people did he step on vs help on the road to achieve success?

Here's How Donald Trump Treats the Little People

"In a masterstroke of financial maneuvering, and in a tribute to the sucker-born-every-minute theorem, [Trump] managed to take two of the Trump casinos—the Plaza and the Taj Mahal—public in 1995 and 1996, at a time when Donald was unable to make his bank payments and was heading toward personal bankruptcy. The stock sales allowed Donald to buy the casinos back from the banks and unload huge amounts of debt. The offering yanked Donald out of the financial graveyard and left him with a 25 percent stake in a company he once owned entirely."



"…Just a few months after Trump Hotels absorbed the Taj, Donald sold his last Atlantic City casino, the Castle, to the public company. That is, Donald sold his own casino, with all of its heavy debts, to a public company he controlled. The $490 million price tag for the Castle was about $100 million more than analysts thought it was worth…sending the company's stock into a nosedive from which it never recovered."

And that's not to even mention all the little people who Trump told "sue me" when he or his companies refused to pay bills. From the venerable Wall Street Journal (that is ironically a bit left of center) Donald Trump’s Business Plan Left a Trail of Unpaid Bills.

"Donald Trump often boasts on the presidential campaign trail that hardball tactics helped make him a successful businessman, an approach many voters say they admire. Those tactics have also left behind bitter tales among business owners who say he shortchanged them."

So...is that the sort of man you want running the American government? Somebody whose ethics and morality is down in the slime? Trump supporters probably think that makes Trump smart...naw, it makes him dangerous to do business with.

[Alan Goldhammer]

What investments have you made that are productive to America?

I spent my working career in pharmaceutical regulatory affairs and drug safety.  I helped start an Initiative that is exploring how biomarkers can enhance drug development. I was the project director for a Partnership that is using observational medical data to enhance the detection of adverse reactions as well as confirming new benefits of pharmaceuticals.  For this latter organization I secured the initial $20M to get it started, recruited the executive director, and served on the advisory board for two years.  Today, I manage a diversified portfolio that invests in American businesses.

You mentioned earlier you bought some Whirlpool stock.  Well Whirlpool makes a lot of their products in foreign factories where foreigners, not Americans,  are employed.  Well that's your business and I'll defend it just as you should defend Trump's right to invest as he sees fit.  This is America after all.

The same can be said of virtually every major US manufacturing company.  Most manufacture product and/or source parts on a world wide market.  No where did I comment on Trump's right to invest as he sees fit; his two sons were in the Middle East over the weekend at a Trump golf course which was opening up.  I only commented, again factually, that golf courses employ fewer people than the vast majority of real estate ventures.  Nothing wrong with that but if one is discussing employment numbers it is important.  Leased space to a retail store in a Trump building generates more  than a golf course in terms of jobs. 

[Schewe]

Interesting article in Wired magazine (don't know if tech media is considered #FAKE NEWS).

Astoundingly Complex Visualization Untangles Trump’s Business Ties.

"BEFORE DONALD TRUMP was the president, he was a businessman. He came to office leading a vast business enterprise that includes real estate, casinos, and a lucrative branding operation. “The network is huge,” says designer Kim Albrecht, whose riveting data visualization Trump Connections attempts to untangle it all."



"Albrecht used data from BuzzFeed’s TrumpWorld investigation into the president’s 1,500-odd business connections to create two visualizations. The first places Trump at the center of an enormous web.

An interactive version of the data viz lets you click on a name or business to view an expanded list of connections. For instance, clicking on Donald Trump brings up what seems like an endless list of corporations of which he is president. Albrecht organizes the data into a tree denoting the president’s relationship people in the organization.

Albrecht doesn’t offer any commentary on the data, only a means of making a massive dataset accessible to anyone interested in reaching their own conclusions. But the president’s byzantine business interests and his refusal to divest himself from them create a diversified portfolio of potential conflicts of interest. The man who promised to “drain the swamp” is himself a hub of potential corruption—as Albrecht’s visualizations so vividly illustrate."

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Just saying...

[Alan Klein]

...So...is that the sort of man you want running the American government? Somebody whose ethics and morality is down in the slime? Trump supporters probably think that makes Trump smart...naw, it makes him dangerous to do business with.

Exactly the man we need to negotiate with the Chinese, Iranians, Russians, North Koreans, and others who will give no quarter to take advantage of America and Americans.    Being President isn't tiddlywinks.  That's why his voters elected him.  To be a pr**k in defending our country. 

[Schewe]

Just saying...

I don't think there's a danger of that...

Trump's pick for US health secretary has pushed to cut science spending

Oh, wait...is nature–The International weekly journal of science #FAKE NEWS?

[Schewe]

Being President isn't tiddlywinks.

He has no friggin' clue what being president is...

If you lay down with dogs, don't be surprised when you catch fleas.

[Alan Klein]

...Albrecht doesn’t offer any commentary on the data, only a means of making a massive dataset accessible to anyone interested in reaching their own conclusions. But the president’s byzantine business interests and his refusal to divest himself from them create a diversified portfolio of potential conflicts of interest. The man who promised to “drain the swamp” is himself a hub of potential corruption—as Albrecht’s visualizations so vividly illustrate."[/i]

But the voters who elected him understood that he was this type of person.  But he never was a politician.  Hillary was and is.  So the people had to compare her corrupt political ways against a non-politician businessman who promised to clean up the political swamp and get them jobs.  If you were a person effected negatively by the economic situation, who would you vote for?  The corrupt politician part of the hated elites in Washington who called you deplorable and forget about getting a job?  Or the non-politician, manipulative, rich and pugilistic businessman who promises you to "fire" the political and business elites and make the country great again with good jobs? 

Now it may turn out that Trump screws his voters by not keeping his promises and becoming part of the swamp.   But Hillary already promised them no jobs and has been part of the swamp for decades.  It was a no-brainer for people in Wisconsin, PA and the other states that swung the election to Trump.

[jeremyrh]

  That's why his voters elected him.  To be a pr**k in defending our country.

Unfortunately for them he's just a pr**k.

[JoeKitchen]

This is a conversation I have been staying out of because it has been going in circles. 

However, Alan's recent observation about real estate develop being less productive for the economy then other areas is only true if you look at only the number of jobs contributed to that particular project.  Unfortunately, economics is never that simple. 

Now, if you look at the overall effect a good development has on a neighborhood or community, it is clear his observation is wrong. 

The world is truly shaped by good design, and the design of spaces and buildings can have a tremendous impact on how economically successful a particular area is, or is not.  How willing we are to visit an area is directly related to the development of that area and the architecture employed. 

Take for instance out door seating at a restaurant.  You instantly feel safer to walk down a street with it, and will go out of your way to be there.  So a good developer will build his buildings with this mind, making sure to get the right permits, etc.  This then increases the economic success of the area and compounds on itself. 

Sure, it makes the developer more, but also allows for greater returns for all other businesses in the area. 

Of course, areas with little or sub-par development go the opposite direction, and the micro economy of that area suffers. 

(Note, I am looking at this from the point of view of a city slicker.  I will contest that suburban development has little effect on the economy, but I would never be caught dead living in suburbia.) 

[Rob C]

1.  This is a conversation I have been staying out of because it has been going in circles.   

(Note, I am looking at this from the point of view of a city slicker.  I will contest that suburban development has little effect on the economy, but I would never be caught dead living in suburbia.)

1.  Not only circles, but into walls that few seem able to see. I'm counting the dents, but the victims have gone numb and feel nothing and are like the creatures in the Duracell ads, running on until they fade...

2.  When I was young, suburbia was a wonderful place for raising a family; maybe your sense of suburbia is different to mine, or the available suburbs are different. Now that I'm not quite young anymore, I would like to live in a city like Rome. Unfortunately, that damned lottery win keeps making mistakes and going to the wrong addresses, but when it gets its act together and becomes mine, I shall be able to afford Rome. Like any place worth being, if you can't do it properly, might as well just stay where you are. It's like a boat: if you can't afford one big enough, why bother? Because bother is all it will be.

;-(

Rob

[JoeKitchen]

2.  When I was young, suburbia was a wonderful place for raising a family; maybe your sense of suburbia is different to mine, or the available suburbs are different. Now that I'm not quite young anymore, I would like to live in a city like Rome. Unfortunately, that damned lottery win keeps making mistakes and going to the wrong addresses, but when it gets its act together and becomes mine, I shall be able to afford Rome. Like any place worth being, if you can't do it properly, might as well just stay where you are. It's like a boat: if you can't afford one big enough, why bother? Because bother is all it will be.

;-(

Rob

If I was in my 30s when you were instead of now, I would be crazy to live where I live now; it was a war zone.  Now though, the city is very nice, and I have been living in one, or another, almost my entire life. 

And to be honest, I hate driving!  Sure, I drive to my shoots because I have so much equipment to bring, but in suburbia in the USA, you need to drive everywhere for everything.  I want to be able to walk to the store or the park or the pub when I want to. 

Not to mention, everything in the suburbs is planned and non-organic.  Most suburban towns don't even have villages or hamlets; they're just a collection of cookie cutter houses, shopping malls and asphalt.  There ain't nothin special about that. 

[Alan Klein]

If I was in my 30s when you were instead of now, I would be crazy to live where I live now; it was a war zone.  Now though, the city is very nice, and I have been living in one, or another, almost my entire life. 

And to be honest, I hate driving!  Sure, I drive to my shoots because I have so much equipment to bring, but in suburbia in the USA, you need to drive everywhere for everything.  I want to be able to walk to the store or the park or the pub when I want to. 

Not to mention, everything in the suburbs is planned and non-organic.  Most suburban towns don't even have villages or hamlets; they're just a collection of cookie cutter houses, shopping malls and asphalt.  There ain't nothin special about that. 

Well my wife and I left NYC three years ago after living there all our lives.  We retired moving to New Jersey where they grow corn around the corner and there are lots of horses, chickens, goats and other things people grow and farm.   Of course there are strip malls, as well as more formal malls.  We went to a nearby race track yesterday.  It's safer too.  I doubt if a terrorist could find this place.   If we want to be daring and get our adrenaline going, we'd drive back to Manhattan about an hour away and take in a Broadway show or whatever.  Best of both worlds. 

[Alan Goldhammer]

This is a conversation I have been staying out of because it has been going in circles. 

However, Alan's recent observation about real estate develop being less productive for the economy then other areas is only true if you look at only the number of jobs contributed to that particular project.  Unfortunately, economics is never that simple. 

Now, if you look at the overall effect a good development has on a neighborhood or community, it is clear his observation is wrong. 

Development is in the eye of the beholder and as Jane Jacobs so well documented in "the Death and Life of Great American Cities" never all that simple.  Of course Robert Caro also covered this in what some believe to be nauseating detail in "The Power Broker:  Robert Moses and the Fall of New York"  Let me clarify, if we are talking about the overall impact on urban living and it's relationship to development I agree with Joe's remark.  However, let us consider that Donald Trump, fresh out of U Penn, decides to go to work for Acme Widget and makes a nice career in the Widget industry eventually rising to CEO.  Would the quality of life in New York be different today?  I don't think so.  The things that made New York (and of course we are speaking of Manhattan but it can probably also extend to parts of Brooklyn these days) were already laid out years before the first Donald Trump development.  All the development in the loft space in Manhattan was underway before Trump and not impacted by his projects at all.

The world is truly shaped by good design, and the design of spaces and buildings can have a tremendous impact on how economically successful a particular area is, or is not.  How willing we are to visit an area is directly related to the development of that area and the architecture employed. 

Take for instance out door seating at a restaurant.  You instantly feel safer to walk down a street with it, and will go out of your way to be there.  So a good developer will build his buildings with this mind, making sure to get the right permits, etc.  This then increases the economic success of the area and compounds on itself. 

Sure, it makes the developer more, but also allows for greater returns for all other businesses in the area. 

Of course, areas with little or sub-par development go the opposite direction, and the micro economy of that area suffers.

Let us also not ignore the impact on local industry and the community.  Rochester NY had a lot of what you describe, great design, wonderful parks, and unfortunately a dependency on a couple of large companies that are no more. I would venture that a number of large cities in the US would not fit in this mold either.  Certainly Los Angeles is a total mess, Houston is worse, downtown San Diego is nice but the rest of it is just big suburbia.  Some of the most livable big cities are ones whose economies are centered around universities such as Pittsburgh and Boston.

(Note, I am looking at this from the point of view of a city slicker.  I will contest that suburban development has little effect on the economy, but I would never be caught dead living in suburbia.)

Sometimes suburbia becomes suburbia no more.  My area of Bethesda (6 miles or so from The White House) is undergoing citification (probably not a word but it sounds good) with new highrises going up every 3-4 months.  I came here in 1978 when there were two buildings of 12 stories and now many more (haven't counted them lately).  Marriott will have a 23 story world headquarters & hotel a mile down the road from where I live.  Lots of multistory condos and apartment buildings built and being built (I don't know who can afford to live in them).  The population density when all the building is done won't be as high as Manhattan but certainly be greater than any of the areas around here.

Interesting comments from Joe!!!!  We've been having lots of fights in Bethesda over all the building and what is the right cityscape.

[Alan Klein]

Ok, Quinn is gone and we have McMaster. So?