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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 915312 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #680 on: February 21, 2017, 10:06:08 am »

Correct. But it doesn't mean that the court will inevitably treat Trump's apeal on expedited bases either. So, why take the risk to submit it to the court and than potentially wait a year?
I think we can safely move on from debating this point and declare victory for both of us.  the most expeditious thing to do is re-draft as they are donig.
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #681 on: February 21, 2017, 10:07:25 am »

Correct. But it doesn't mean that the court will inevitably treat Trump's apeal on expedited bases either. So, why take the risk to submit it to the court and than potentially wait a year?
Nothing stops him writing a new order and still claim a "win" a year from now and get a leg up on his critics. So it's not the risk of the long time that is stopping him continuing the battle, it's the risk of losing another one and look even more foolish then today.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #682 on: February 21, 2017, 10:09:50 am »

this was no different from what has happened in Afro-American communities as a result of police actions...

Ah, those racist police forces... not letting honest criminals go about their business unimpeded.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #683 on: February 21, 2017, 10:19:51 am »

Riots erupt in Sweden’s capital just days after Trump comments:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/21/riots-erupt-in-swedens-capital-just-days-after-trump-comments/?utm_term=.e92a0f883f1e

Since the riots erupted after the police arrested a suspect on drug charges, are you suggesting that Trump is involved with Drugs? Or does it even have anything to do with Trump?

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #684 on: February 21, 2017, 10:22:21 am »

Ah, those racist police forces... not letting honest criminals go about their business unimpeded.

I do not like negroes (see, I even use almost an N word on purpose) but of course there is enough racism present in police forces at the same time... you are not seriously thinking that you are safe being black than white when facing a police ?
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ppmax2

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #685 on: February 21, 2017, 10:23:56 am »

Riots erupt in Sweden’s capital just days after Trump comments:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/21/riots-erupt-in-swedens-capital-just-days-after-trump-comments/?utm_term=.e92a0f883f1e

Here's a post on another forum from a fellow that actually lives there. I think the narrative that Slobodan is promoting is that poor white peaceful Sweden is being corrupted by filthy brown violent muslims...and that the same will happen here in the US...ergo, #MAGA.

Quote
For the record: there was a riot in Rinkeby last night (hashtag #LastNightInSweden!), but calling it a migrant riot is incorrect. Police are reporting that the majority of the rioters were known to them and most of them are residents of Rinkeby or Tensta. I won't deny that suburbs like Rinkeby and Tensta in Stockholm, Biskopsgården in Göteborg and Rosengård in Malmö have problems, but the overwhelming majority of those problems are related to integration, not immigration. This is a case of children of immigrants, who have either been here for a long time or who were born here, feeling excluded from society (and in many cases they sadly are).

It's a real problem, but sites like Breitbart and newspapers like the Daily Mail, who are trying to present these areas as no-go zones for the police, are just spreading bullshit. Most cities around the world have or have had these problems.

I live in one of these Stockholm suburbs that Swedish right-wing sites like Avpixlat and Fria Tider are calling no-go zones ("Don't go there, it's Little Arabia", "lots of drug addicts", "police won't go there during the night", "several shootings in the last five years", "crime-ridden" etc.). I have never felt afraid or worried, I have no problems with letting my kids play outside in the park, my wife doesn't feel worried when she has to go to the store after sunset and so on. None of our local friends do. And we're all mostly middle class or working class from all parts of the world.

There are problems, but there is an immense amount of propaganda being spread by these sites who are pushing their right-wing agenda, where one of the most important things to do is to make people distrust the established media. It's hardly surprising that the US alt-right sites are getting their info from outlets direcly connected to representatives for the right-wing Sweden Democrats.

The fear is how they get to people and they know it.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #686 on: February 21, 2017, 10:40:30 am »

Trump's business "was" (I used the past tense as he says he is not involved in running it anymore) real estate development.  This business relies heavily on debt financing and is one reason he almost went bankrupt when his two casinos in Atlantic City and one hotel in NYC failed.  He was able to negotiate some favorable loan conditions so that the main enterprise was not impacted though the hotels did enter bankruptcy.  Real Estate developers do create construction jobs early on (assuming new or refurbished construction; purchasing existing real estate to take advantage of the depreciation tax laws creates very little job employment but is one of the main reasons you see hotel sites shift brands all the time) and may create a small or moderate number of ongoing jobs (maintenance or hotel staff depending on the use of the building).  One can get job numbers from government databases on this industry but it doesn't provide the same economic impact as an industrial manufacturer who has high value added products.


 ...and your point is what?  That we should shoot Trump and all other real estate developers because they don't create as many jobs as industrial manufacturer's.  Well ask all the architects, engineers, electricians, steel workers, plumbers, and other tradesmen who build his buildings about your thinking of their jobs that feed their families..  Ask the thousands of workers who clean apartments and hotels, the concierges and others who support the running of his hotels and apartments, renovate them as tenants move in and out.    What about the workers who work in the stores in the commercial portion of their buildings?  They also have on-going jobs.   Also what about the industrial manufacturers who have gone totally out of business losing all their jobs to China?  Meanwhile, real estate developers are still building here in America providing American jobs.  The hate of Trump so blinds people to thinking irrationally.  Work is work.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #687 on: February 21, 2017, 10:54:40 am »

Just to let you know that Trump paid plumbers in NYC about $55 per hour plus additional union benefits to build his buildings here.  Other tradesmen make comparable wages.  That's over $100,000 a year.  Plumbers make double that when working overtime.  Electricians make 1 1/2 times base rate for overtime.  What do factory workers earn assuming they still have their jobs? 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #688 on: February 21, 2017, 11:05:05 am »

Since the riots erupted after the police arrested a suspect on drug charges, are you suggesting that Trump is involved with Drugs? Or does it even have anything to do with Trump?

Cheers,
Bart
Well at least we've moved on from the annoying and repetitive "well it's Bush's fault" during the last 8 years of Obama.  So now it's "Trump's fault".  Isn't it great that Obama never did anything wrong? 

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #689 on: February 21, 2017, 11:20:24 am »

Just to let you know that Trump paid plumbers in NYC about $55 per hour plus additional union benefits to build his buildings here.  Other tradesmen make comparable wages.  That's over $100,000 a year.  Plumbers make double that when working overtime.  Electricians make 1 1/2 times base rate for overtime.  What do factory workers earn assuming they still have their jobs?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/your-money/sweet-smell-of-money-for-plumbers.html

you don't assume that every single dude dealing with pipes was a full blown plumber though - a lot were apprentices  ;)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #690 on: February 21, 2017, 11:28:52 am »

Ah, those racist police forces... not letting honest criminals go about their business unimpeded.
there is a long history of this in Los Angeles and a lot of good journalism about how the emerging middle class blacks who worked in the aircraft industry in the area during WWII were prevented from buying property outside of the south central area of LA which turned into a de facto ghetto because of this.  almost all real estate transactions contained racial covenants which were not illegal at the time.  (as in aside my own area of Bethesda all houses built before about 1952 contained a racial covenant.  There was always a toilet on the lowest level of the house, usually next to the laundry sink that was set aside for the "colored" help as they were not expected to use facilities on the main floors of the house)  The enforced ghettoization and the extreme police methods that evolved in the post war era led to the riots.  I'm speaking only of Los Angeles and not the other areas that erupted in the mid 1960s.  Mike Davis's excellent history of Los Angeles, "City of Quartz", documents the rise of the quasi-police state in the city. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #691 on: February 21, 2017, 11:37:05 am »



 ...and your point is what?  That we should shoot Trump and all other real estate developers because they don't create as many jobs as industrial manufacturer's.  Well ask all the architects, engineers, electricians, steel workers, plumbers, and other tradesmen who build his buildings about your thinking of their jobs that feed their families..  Ask the thousands of workers who clean apartments and hotels, the concierges and others who support the running of his hotels and apartments, renovate them as tenants move in and out.    What about the workers who work in the stores in the commercial portion of their buildings?  They also have on-going jobs.   Also what about the industrial manufacturers who have gone totally out of business losing all their jobs to China?  Meanwhile, real estate developers are still building here in America providing American jobs.  The hate of Trump so blinds people to thinking irrationally.  Work is work.
As I said in my early post, I am only posting facts and not engaging in any diatribes as I want to keep my temper.  I most certainly take umbrage against your statement alluding that I "hate" Trump.  I don't think I have ever said that.  I was only pointing out "factually" that real estate development is different from manufacturing which constantly has to invent new and better products in order to stay in business.  Once a hotel is built, the major sunk costs are over and the debt, if any, needs to be repaid.  Ongoing maintenance costs that employ people are not as significant a cost.  These are all facts.  Contrast the Real Estate business with a company I have an equity position and just announced it's earnings this morning, Whirlpool.  this company operates internationally, just as Trump enterprises does.  It employs 95,000 people and has revenues of $21B.  It is also in a highly competitive industry and if they don't come up with new products that consumers want they will slowly whither.  My factual point is that real estate development or the owning of real estate (and I was an owner of an apartment building at one point in time) is far different from manufacturing.

I will make one opinionated statement here that I will not subsequently respond to (breaking my rule of only discussing facts).  I believe is is easier to be successful in real estate than in manufacturing.
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ppmax2

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #692 on: February 21, 2017, 11:38:53 am »



 ...and your point is what?  That we should shoot Trump and all other real estate developers because they don't create as many jobs as industrial manufacturer's.  Well ask all the architects, engineers, electricians, steel workers, plumbers, and other tradesmen who build his buildings about your thinking of their jobs that feed their families..  Ask the thousands of workers who clean apartments and hotels, the concierges and others who support the running of his hotels and apartments, renovate them as tenants move in and out.    What about the workers who work in the stores in the commercial portion of their buildings?  They also have on-going jobs.   Also what about the industrial manufacturers who have gone totally out of business losing all their jobs to China?  Meanwhile, real estate developers are still building here in America providing American jobs.  The hate of Trump so blinds people to thinking irrationally.  Work is work.

Again, the narrative spun by the Trump crowd is that he's a self-made man, a brilliant businessman, etc etc. Compelling arguments have been made that he is none of those things. When confronted with these things the Trump crowd shifts the goal posts...as you've done above. Sure, Trump employed some people. Big deal.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #693 on: February 21, 2017, 11:40:56 am »

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/your-money/sweet-smell-of-money-for-plumbers.html

you don't assume that every single dude dealing with pipes was a full blown plumber though - a lot were apprentices  ;)

There is a rule that allows apprentices.  For example, 1 apprentice for every 4 or 5 journeymen hired for a particular job.  I'm not sure of the exact ratio.  It takes 5 years as an apprentice to reach journeyman level and full pay.  But still, why go to college?   :)
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/your-money/sweet-smell-of-money-for-plumbers.html?_r=0

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #694 on: February 21, 2017, 11:42:47 am »

Just to let you know that Trump paid plumbers in NYC about $55 per hour plus additional union benefits to build his buildings here.  Other tradesmen make comparable wages.  That's over $100,000 a year.  Plumbers make double that when working overtime.  Electricians make 1 1/2 times base rate for overtime.  What do factory workers earn assuming they still have their jobs?
there are also lots of reports that Trump stiffed workers and vendors.  there is some ongoing litigation by parties here (fact:  three current case against the Trump Hotel in DC) but also cases where small vendors were forced to settle for ten cents on the dollar as they could not afford prolonged court hearings (the best example was the piano supplier to one of the Trump casinos in Atlantic City who was stiffed and then settled). 

Yes, electricians and other guilds that are involved in construction make good salaries but their jobs are gone once the construction ends.  As a sobering analysis, look at what happened to these workers in areas where the housing boom abruptly cratered when the bubble popped.  It was just as dire as a manufacturing worker losing his/her job when the factory closed.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #695 on: February 21, 2017, 11:47:03 am »

There is a rule that allows apprentices.  For example, 1 apprentice for every 4 or 5 journeymen hired for a particular job.  I'm not sure of the exact ratio.  It takes 5 years as an apprentice to reach journeyman level and full pay.  But still, why go to college?   :)
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/your-money/sweet-smell-of-money-for-plumbers.html?_r=0
An excellent point as there are good jobs in maintenance all over the place.  Look at how much good HVAC people make,  I have my furnace inspected in the fall and AC in the spring and the 10 minute call is costs $90 as I have a service contract.  A plumbing or electrician visit to take care of a problem costs over $100.  I try to do most of this myself to save on the call but there are times when I'm not up to the task.  We need good vocational training as these jobs are never going to be automated.   Similarly, good handymen can do quite well in our area where the houses are on the older side and things need to be repaired.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #696 on: February 21, 2017, 11:48:38 am »

Again, the narrative spun by the Trump crowd is that he's a self-made man, a brilliant businessman, etc etc. Compelling arguments have been made that he is none of those things. When confronted with these things the Trump crowd shifts the goal posts...as you've done above. Sure, Trump employed some people. Big deal.
How many people have you employed?  How much in salaries do you pay out every year?

ppmax2

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #697 on: February 21, 2017, 12:05:38 pm »

How many people have you employed?  How much in salaries do you pay out every year?

Another classic technique of the Trump supporter is use of the false equivalence. I am not claiming that I am a self-made, a brilliant businessman, or a job creator...nor am I running for political office using that as a basis for qualification. Comparing me to Trump serves no purpose and is literally and figuratively irrelevant.

My intent is to illustrate a pattern, as I did with a previous response to you, that the Trump and pro-Trump supporters engage in routinely: make a claim, and then shift the goalposts when that claim is shown to be false, a lie, BS, choose your adjective.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #698 on: February 21, 2017, 12:10:07 pm »

...Yes, electricians and other guilds that are involved in construction make good salaries but their jobs are gone once the construction ends.  As a sobering analysis, look at what happened to these workers in areas where the housing boom abruptly cratered when the bubble popped.  It was just as dire as a manufacturing worker losing his/her job when the factory closed.

Alan, you're original point about  Trump's businesses, construction jobs are lost after the construction ends.  So what.  Does that make his businesses not worthy?  That there is something wrong about being a real estate developer?  That's what you were implying.   Why not credit him for taking chances, developing buildings that create construction and other jobs that add to the economy?   Instead, your arguments just try to diminish him as a person so you pick on real estate development as an unworthy profession. 

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #699 on: February 21, 2017, 12:17:07 pm »

Alan, you're original point about  Trump's businesses, construction jobs are lost after the construction ends.  So what.  Does that make his businesses not worthy?  That there is something wrong about being a real estate developer?  That's what you were implying.   Why not credit him for taking chances, developing buildings that create construction and other jobs that add to the economy?   Instead, your arguments just try to diminish him as a person so you pick on real estate development as an unworthy profession.
I never said real estate development was unworthy (and certainly in this day one cannot discriminate thanks to the Civil Rights legislation of the LBJ era).  I just said that it was different which is a factual statement.  Developers have to take chances and there are lots of examples of real estate developers going bankrupt because they have misread the market and certainly Trump had a brush with this.  I also complement him on building a global brand even though the brand generates licensing fees and employment is not as robust compared the real estate development.  I hope this answer is satisfactory.
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