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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 916396 times)

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6360 on: September 22, 2017, 03:44:23 pm »

That's not true.  Healthcare in the US is fine.  It's that we have more problems with drugs and other issues especially with a large black and poor white category in the younger years.  So there's  a lot more abuse that even great health care can't help.

I looked up life expectancies to compare US with UK.

Here are the results.

US for 2014
From birth Men 76.33   Women 81.11
UK for 2013-2015
From birth Men 79.4 Women 83.1
That's about a 3 year difference for men and 2 year for women favoring the Brits.  These are the statistics you usually read about.

Now let's look at expectancies from age 65.
US
Men 82.84  Women 85.44
UK
Men 83.5 Women 85.9

That's about 7 months for men and 5 months for women, favoring the Brits.  Basically the same between the two countries.

So it seems that once past the younger ages, adults in the US and UK seem to live about the same years.  Whether this has to do with health care, DNA or both, I don't know. 

Another factor is where you live in the US.  We're a big country spread out all over the place.    My friend who developed cancer was not being treated very well in the rural area he lived.  Good specialists are not available in rural areas. They tend to congregate in larger cities where there are more potential patients.   He now has been transferred to NYC and is at one of the top cancer hospitals in the country.    So care varies.  What's concerning about national health care, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is that the best doctors in NYC are opting out of government insurance programs.  So only the very wealthy would be able to afford the best doctors in the future.  Look at the floundering Veteran's Administration if you want to see how national health care might work.

That's a pretty lousy deal, I wonder why Trump (being the outstanding business man you claim he is) hasn't fixed it yet  ;)

In the US you spend (2014 data) $ 9237 per year per person on healthcare
In the UK they spend (same 2014 data) $ 3749 per year per person on healthcare

So you spend 2.5 times the UK and live shorter, wether you look at it from birth or age 65. I wouldn't call on average 6 month difference in life expectancy between the countries "basically the same". The sample is large enough for the difference to be real (and statistically significant).
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6361 on: September 22, 2017, 03:49:28 pm »

Brits will catch up with us. With morbid obesity becoming more and more European, not just American, you will catch up with us pretty soon.

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6362 on: September 22, 2017, 03:50:00 pm »

Alan, I gather that you don't like facing reality? Which is that the majority of Americans don't care about ObamaCare, for better or worse. I am just the messenger.

The reality is that Obamacare has a higher favorability rating than the president...currently polling at 46% in favor vs 42% apposed (undecided was 10% and no opinion was 2.5%)

So, it would seem that more people favor keeping Obamacare than having it repealed and replaced...which is why after 8 years and over 50 some odd votes in congress, the friggin' GOP STILL can't make a move to fix health insurance (and healthcare) in America.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6363 on: September 22, 2017, 04:04:25 pm »

That's a pretty lousy deal, I wonder why Trump (being the outstanding business man you claim he is) hasn't fixed it yet  ;)

In the US you spend (2014 data) $ 9237 per year per person on healthcare
In the UK they spend (same 2014 data) $ 3749 per year per person on healthcare

So you spend 2.5 times the UK and live shorter, wether you look at it from birth or age 65. I wouldn't call on average 6 month difference in life expectancy between the countries "basically the same". The sample is large enough for the difference to be real (and statistically significant).
We keep looking at mortality rates.  Although these are important, what about better health care that leads to a better life.  If I lose a leg to diabetes, and get a electronic leg that cot $35,000 vs. a Brit who gets a peg leg for $5.49, or get a machine to clean my blood at home at $600 a month vs having to travel to the hospital 5 times a month at $75 each time, how do you compare the two.  Now I have no reports or statistics that shows these differences.  But I do know that Canadians would cross the border to get an MRI the next day rather than waiting 6 months to get it schedule in Canada by the government.  How do you measure those things?

All I know is that everything the government does, private industry does better.  To think that I should my life care into the hands of some bureaucrat in Washington who cares little about me scares the hell out of me.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6364 on: September 22, 2017, 04:05:37 pm »

46% is still a minority, even if the number is true, and regardless what or who you are comparing it with.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6365 on: September 22, 2017, 04:15:31 pm »

That's not true.  Healthcare in the US is fine.

Really?

Maybe it's so inefficient that it affects mortality? If so, then I'd fix that first, instead of changing the number of insured people.

Cheers,
Bart
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6366 on: September 22, 2017, 04:33:32 pm »

We keep looking at mortality rates.  Although these are important, what about better health care that leads to a better life.  If I lose a leg to diabetes, and get a electronic leg that cot $35,000 vs. a Brit who gets a peg leg for $5.49, or get a machine to clean my blood at home at $600 a month vs having to travel to the hospital 5 times a month at $75 each time, how do you compare the two.  Now I have no reports or statistics that shows these differences.  But I do know that Canadians would cross the border to get an MRI the next day rather than waiting 6 months to get it schedule in Canada by the government.  How do you measure those things?
Since you have no reports or statistics I guess it's fine to show more anecdotal evidence about the "better" care in the US vs. elsewhere. When my wife had a Caesarean section for the birth of our second daughter she was kicked out of hospital after just over 48 hours, she could barely walk, had to stay in bed and we had to get a private caretaker to help her and take care of our other two kids. I bet the cost for this caretaker is not in the healthcare statistics. When our first daughter was born 2 years before (Rotterdam) she stayed 8 days in the hospital and when she got home she was sufficiently recovered to slowly pick up her normal activities. Comparing the two bills for the total cost (~3days in a Texas hospital and ~8 days in a Rotterdam hospital) for the entire procedure the US cost was more then twice the cost in Rotterdam. So some things might be better in the US (if I believe your examples), but our personal experience was that it was worse and much more expensive.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6367 on: September 22, 2017, 05:03:25 pm »

46% is still a minority, even if the number is true, and regardless what or who you are comparing it with.

Interesting, isn't that the same 46% Trump won with?
(technically it was 45.9% but so what)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6368 on: September 22, 2017, 05:18:56 pm »

Since you have no reports or statistics I guess it's fine to show more anecdotal evidence about the "better" care in the US vs. elsewhere. When my wife had a Caesarean section for the birth of our second daughter she was kicked out of hospital after just over 48 hours, she could barely walk, had to stay in bed and we had to get a private caretaker to help her and take care of our other two kids. I bet the cost for this caretaker is not in the healthcare statistics. When our first daughter was born 2 years before (Rotterdam) she stayed 8 days in the hospital and when she got home she was sufficiently recovered to slowly pick up her normal activities. Comparing the two bills for the total cost (~3days in a Texas hospital and ~8 days in a Rotterdam hospital) for the entire procedure the US cost was more then twice the cost in Rotterdam. So some things might be better in the US (if I believe your examples), but our personal experience was that it was worse and much more expensive.

Yeah but there are other advantages of paying more.  When the American comes home with his expensive, electronic,  titanium false leg and makes love to his wife, she admiringly comments, "Wow. You're better than ever."

Meanwhile across the pond, the Brit comes home, unscrews and removes his peg leg, makes love to his wife, and she complains, "Nah. Something's missing.  You were better before."  Feeling insulted, the Brit then commences to beat his wife with his leg. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6369 on: September 22, 2017, 05:24:55 pm »

First the president fires you.  Than you're shouted down at a university. You just can't get no respect.
‘James Comey, you’re not our homie!’: Protesters disrupt ex-FBI director’s speech at Howard University
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/protesters-disrupt-former-fbi-director-comeys-speech-at-howard-university/2017/09/22/ae75d1c8-9fae-11e7-9c8d-cf053ff30921_story.html

kers

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6370 on: September 22, 2017, 05:27:55 pm »

Brits will catch up with us. With morbid obesity becoming more and more European, not just American, you will catch up with us pretty soon.

So where is your source? Or did you make it up yourself?
the % USA starts where Europe ends
It will be hard for Europe to catch 'UP'  to USA levels
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 05:31:46 pm by kers »
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Pieter Kers
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6371 on: September 22, 2017, 05:48:01 pm »

... It will be hard for Europe to catch 'UP'  to USA levels

Well, you are generally behind the U.S. in many aspects, so no wonder ;)

P.S. I was talking about trends, not the current snapshot that you provided. And trends are ticking upward. Just check the U.K., a nation of generally slender people, already leading Europe in obesity.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6372 on: September 22, 2017, 05:53:02 pm »

Speaking about obesity and mortality:

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6373 on: September 22, 2017, 05:54:08 pm »

Yeah but there are other advantages of paying more.  When the American comes home with his expensive, electronic,  titanium false leg and makes love to his wife, she admiringly comments, "Wow. You're better than ever."

Meanwhile across the pond, the Brit comes home, unscrews and removes his peg leg, makes love to his wife, and she complains, "Nah. Something's missing.  You were better before."  Feeling insulted, the Brit then commences to beat his wife with his leg.

Wow, you really are a piece of work, aren't you?  Why am I not surprised that you joke about beating your wife?
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Phil Brown

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6374 on: September 22, 2017, 06:03:09 pm »

My wife and I are both healthy with no serious or chronic problems. I've been self-employed for most of my adult life so I am the employer who provides health insurance for my wife and I. Before Obamacare our insurance premiums were around $2000 per month, and it was only that low because we have group insurance through a regional council of smaller enterprises. Is $2000/month a "reasonable amount"? In the 5 or so years before Obamacare we were seeing annual increases on the order of 30%, so we increased the deductible to higher levels several times just to keep premiums in check. A year before Obamacare happened our deductible was already at very high catastrophic insurance levels. Since Obamacare happened our premiums have not decreased but we get all of the preventative care and tests at no charge only because of Obamacare. Without that we'd be paying 100% of all of that, plus a couple thousand dollars per month.

My wife recently had 5 one hour physical therapy appointments. On two (first and last) occasions an actual physical therapist saw her, and on the others she was seen by an "assistant". All of the sessions consisted of the person telling her what exercises to do and her doing them. No active treatment, like traction, etc., was ever performed and no special equipment except a big rubber band that you can buy for a couple dollars) was used. The bill to our insurance for this was $500 per session. Is that reasonable? Her appointment with the orthopedic surgeon, which included several x-rays was cheaper.

The health care system in America was broken long before Obamacare happened. Before Obamacare around 60% of all personal bankruptcies had a medical cause and now that's down to around 25%, so there has been a positive impact. Here's some "fake news" for you to digest:
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-obamacare-bankruptcy-20170509-story.html

Our kids in Australia don't sweat healthcare or insurance costs. Both have gone through having their own kids, and caring for one of those with special medical needs, all without a financial worry. Whenever I think about that I wonder why America can't do half as well for its citizens. My guess is because many fear any sort of change, bury their heads in the sand, and convince themselves that what we have is fine even though it's near the bottom of the heap for any developed nation.

In Australia, when you go to a physio, you get seen by a physio.  My local practice has the owner with 25 years experience and his related degree, and his staff all have either a Masters or a Doctorate.  The price for a normal 45 minute session (using any equipment required, hands on, and often with a colleague consulting as well if it's a tricky matter) is $90 at the top rate.  If you are in one of the private health funds you'll generally pay slightly less - $85-, and then your health fund will cover a portion of that depending on your level of cover (for me, I'm 10% out of pocket).  Of course, if you can't afford that you can get cover, based on a referral from a GP, for up to 4 sessions per injury, from Medicare which means you pay nothing.  Or, you can be a public hospital outpatient and get unlimited care and pay nothing (but you may not be able to get short notice bookings - but when I snapped my leg in half 20 years ago, I had 2 sessions a week for 4 months learning how to walk again).

Of course, we pay taxes and a levy that covers that Medicare, but our tax rate is comparable to the US overall and we spend much less on health for better outcomes (I've posted the data before, and relevant data has been posted recently on this thread).

Private healthcare is optional, and gives you additional benefits.  My wife and I have the highest possible level of private health insurance on top of our underlying universal cover through Medicare.  It's $400- odd a month covering both of us.

So, yeah, the US problem is that every step of the way someone is making a margin and they throw people in between who aren't needed (like physio "assistants" and who knows what else).

Alan tells us 85% of people were happy.  I would wager that 85% of that 85% simply didn't know they were being ripped off.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6375 on: September 22, 2017, 06:16:18 pm »

Speaking about obesity and mortality:

It's not entirely due to the language, maybe more due to bicycling (or drinking red wine).
USA shows twice the coronary heart disease (78%)  of Netherlands, Spain or France (30%), but actually it doesn't fare so bad - compared to Hungary (172%), Afghanistan, Ukraine (384%) or Russia. The attached table compares 172 countries, and some of the results look quite surprising.

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/coronary-heart-disease/by-country/
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6376 on: September 22, 2017, 06:30:03 pm »

... you joke about beating your wife?

What's not to love and joke about it? Your Muslim friends think it is man's duty and their imams teach them how to do it without leaving much trace. ;)

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6377 on: September 22, 2017, 06:35:32 pm »

What's not to love and joke about it? Your Muslim friends think it is man's duty and their imams teach them how to do it without leaving much trace. ;)

Not my Muslim friends - not any of my friends.  But this whole "god" caper does have a lot to answer for:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-18/domestic-violence-church-submit-to-husbands/8652028

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Phil Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6378 on: September 22, 2017, 06:39:04 pm »

Not my Muslim friends - not any of my friends.  But this whole "god" caper does have a lot to answer for:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-18/domestic-violence-church-submit-to-husbands/8652028

Individual idiots is one thing, but imams going on tv to advise how to do it "lightly" is quite a different thing. You can't possibly compare contemporary Christian treatment of women with contemporary Muslim one.

texshooter

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6379 on: September 22, 2017, 06:59:08 pm »

« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 06:50:28 am by texshooter »
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