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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6320 on: September 21, 2017, 10:35:02 pm »

Donald Trump: World-renowned primatologist Jane Goodall likens US President to a chimpanzee


'To impress rivals, males seeking to rise in the dominance hierarchy perform spectacular displays:
Stamping, slapping the ground, dragging branches, throwing rocks,' says prominent conservationist


Ok...I stand corrected, Trump is not a Big Orange Baboon he's a Big Orange Chimpanzee™ with a bad comb-over...


I wonder what she would say about Democrat President Clinton getting BJ's in the Oval Office?

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6321 on: September 21, 2017, 10:57:02 pm »

+1. Voter turnout and voter behaviour is set by the system. If you change the system you get will get different voter turnout and behaviour. Transposing the voting results of one system in a "what if" type scenario to another system is useless and anybody deriving serious conclusions from that is trying to fool his readers. I think utter garbage is an understatement  for the article :) 

What's ironic is that when Hillary complains that she would have been elected if it were not for the electoral system, she fails to mention Democrat Superdelegates and the non-popular vote of the Democrat nomination process.  Superdelegates make up 15% of the total Democrat delegates in the nomination process.  She had that advantage from the beginning because she locked up their votes before Iowa.  They are not bound by voters or caucuses.  They were in her pocket.  So the whole  nomination process in the Democrat party is itself not by popular vote.  The Superdelegates were grabbed up by her in the very beginning to vote for her nomination as the Democrat candidate.  Bernie didn't have a chance.   It would be refreshing if interviewers would ask her about Superdelegates whenever she complains about how she lost to the electoral process.  But of course like most of the media, they are in her corner and hate Trump.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6322 on: September 21, 2017, 11:08:01 pm »

To be clear, Flynn's phone wasn't tapped it was the Russian he was talking to (which he failed to report and lied about) whose phone was tapped. He got scooped up as incidental contact. The reason he was unmasked was because of legitimate national security conserns. Flynn was not then under surveillance (prolly is now)

The only other person related to Trump that subject to a FISA warrent was the idiot Carter Page because he was trying to be recruited by known Russian agents. The reason I called him an idiot was that's what the Russians called him.

None of which supports Trump's silly claim that Obama had his phones tapped...

Obama was listening to Flynn by receiving over a hundred transcripts of phone calls. Trump could not have known exactly how he was being "tapped".  That's just an expression for being surveilled.    But he suspected, correct it turns out, that he was being surveilled.  Now it turns out that Manafort, his campaign chief, was being tapped.  Regardless of the reason for the tapping,  Trump was again right.   His key campaign players, Manafort and Flynn, were being listened to by the Obama administration.  Considering what happened with the IRS being used to pressure conservative organizations during the election campaign of 2012, by Obama's administration, Trump was right on-the-money assuming he was being tapped or surveilled.  The media and you are just playing word games.

Why was Obama so nosey?  Don't you think it had something to do with politics?  If there was some sort of espionage going on, that would have been for the FBI to investigate, not him or Rice. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6323 on: September 21, 2017, 11:40:15 pm »

It's clearly a stupid situation.  Get a federal standard and register and you'd go a long way to sorting things out, but that won't happen in the US.
It would require a constitutional amendment. Since electors for each state are determine by each party according to their rules.  There are almost no rules in the Constitution on how electors are chosen.  If a state party wants to flip a coin, that's legal.  Even after they're selected, there's no constitutional requirement on who they vote for.  Some Hillary electors actually voted in the end for Trump.  I don't think any Trump electors voted for Hillary.  Now that's funny considering how Hillary supporters tried to get Trump electors to vote for her. 

One recommendation I have to improve the process is to have white or gray smoke sent up in the air to show who won.  Sort of like when they elect the Pope.  Very picturesque.  Also, it would minimize all the talking heads on cable who keep predicting the wrong winner all night.  :)

 A more detail description of electors is here. https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/electors.html

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6324 on: September 22, 2017, 12:06:27 am »

One recommendation I have to improve the process is to have white or gray smoke sent up in the air to show who won.  Sort of like when they elect the Pope.  Very picturesque.  Also, it would minimize all the talking heads on cable who keep predicting the wrong winner all night.  :)

Never mind the pope, we can learn from Native American Indians. I'm sure that back in November, many tribes signalled all over the country with three black of puffs of smoke.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 12:11:46 am by LesPalenik »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6325 on: September 22, 2017, 12:25:49 am »

Never mind the pope, we can learn from Native American Indians. I'm sure that back in November, many tribes signalled all over the country with three black of puffs of smoke.

I've got it.  Blue smoke if Democrat. Red smoke if Republican.

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6326 on: September 22, 2017, 01:54:01 am »

Why was Obama so nosey?  Don't you think it had something to do with politics?  If there was some sort of espionage going on, that would have been for the FBI to investigate, not him or Rice.

I think it might have had something to do about national security? You know, like Flynn talking to the Russians about lifting sanctions or Flynn talking to Saudi Arabia about installing Russian nuclear reactors or Flynn talking about kidnapping a Turkish dissident and sending him to Turkey or how about Jared Kushner talking to the Russians about using a back channel method (the Russian consulate) to negotiate so the US intelligence agencies couldn't eavesdrop or how about Kushner meeting with a Russian bankers who is under sanction and can't do business in the US or how about Kushner and Flynn secretly meeting with the King of Abdullah II of Jordan (to again pitch  build nuclear reactors there) and Kushner and Flynn as well as Bannon met with United Arab Emirates crown prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan. Why all that contact?

Boy, Flynn and Kushner sure were doing a lot of talking to people who they prolly shouldn't have been talking to about stuff they prolly shouldn't have been talking about.

But no worries...good ol' Bob Mueller will be taking care of all of that stuff and if somebody broke the law, then they will go to prison.

But the House intelligence committee had Barbara Rice in close session to explain exactly why she did what she did and the committee stated (even the GOP members) that Rice did nothing wrong or illegal. So, unless you know something the House intelligence committee doesn't know, ya might want to get over the whole Obama being nosey business. He and the rest of his administration were doing the people's business.

Here's the article that contains information about Rice...

SUSAN RICE EXPLAINS WHY SHE UNMASKED TRUMP OFFICIALS

Quote
Susan Rice, Obama’s national security adviser, has finally come clean on why she unmasked Trump campaign officials—an act President Donald Trump said he thinks is a crime.

Rice met with the House intelligence committee last week. Multiple sources told CNN Wednesday that Rice testified she unmasked the names of multiple members of the Trump campaign who were picked up on intelligence intercepts of foreign sources.

Her goal at the time, she said, was to find out who was meeting with United Arab Emirates crown prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan in New York last December after the election. In a break from custom, the prince had not told President Barack Obama he would be visiting the U.S.

--snip--

During Rice’s testimony last week, Representative Tom Rooney, the Republican from Florida and a member of the House intelligence committee, told CNN Wednesday, “I didn't hear anything to believe that she did anything illegal.”

South Carolina Republican Trey Gowdy, another committee member, told the Daily Caller “nothing that came up” during Rice’s interview “led me to conclude” she improperly unmasked the Trump officials.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6327 on: September 22, 2017, 02:06:02 am »

Wow...I wonder where those notes are? Betcha good ol' Bob Mueller knows where they are...

Spicer's note-taking could give investigators a Trump roadmap



Quote
(CNN)Sean Spicer's copious note-taking during his time as White House press secretary could provide investigators with a behind-the-scenes roadmap of what transpired early in President Donald Trump's tenure.

Spicer was a zealous notetaker in the White House, sources tell CNN, a habit that dates to his time as the top strategist at the Republican National Committee. Spicer filled notebooks over his eight-month tenure as Trump's spokesperson, taking copious notes as the administration got off the ground.

Now, as special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russia's 2016 meddling begins to broaden and he seeks an array of documents from inside the White House, those notebooks could prove useful to investigators who hope to establish what was happening inside the West Wing at the time.

Multiple White House officials declined to comment on Spicer's note-taking or whether Mueller has asked for Spicer's notes.

One WH official is quoted as saying: "People are going to wish they'd been nicer to Sean...He was in a lot of meetings"
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6328 on: September 22, 2017, 04:01:06 am »

It would require a constitutional amendment.

Yup, I know exactly how it works.  That's why I said it wouldn't change in the US!
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Phil Brown

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6329 on: September 22, 2017, 05:14:14 am »

Quote from: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/21/africa/trump-nambia-un-africa-trnd/index.html
"President Donald Trump lavished praise on the health care system of Nambia during a speech at the United Nations.
But there's one little problem -- there's no such country."...
The gaffe lit up social media, with many speculating whether he meant Namibia, Zambia or Gambia....
"Trump mentioned Nambia twice during the session attended by leaders of several nations, including Ghana, Namibia and Uganda..."

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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6330 on: September 22, 2017, 06:14:01 am »

5 (maybe 6) out of 45 (although there have actually been 58 elections).  There were 3 in the 19th Century and 2 in the 21st Century.  The whole of the 20th Century had no such events officially, but there is some doubt about the 1960 election due to the way Alabama worked out its EC electors in which case it would have had 1 (hence my "5 (maybe 6)" comment to start with.

That's not really in the realms of "so many".  It's not without precedent, but it's uncommon, being at best 10.3% of the time and probably 8.6% of the time.

Five

In 1824, John Quincy Adams
In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes
In 1888, Benjamin Harrison
In 2000, George W. Bush
In 2016, Donald Trump

Not insignificant, but I agree, hardly so many.

But good call on Alabama. Not too many know that.  The way Alabama worked their electors was .... unusual.

The intent of the electoral college is to elect the candidate that garners the majority of the votes in the majority of states. Not just the majority of votes.  Like most things in our government, it was a compromise.  Similarly with representation in the Congress, there was a schism between large population states and low population states and how each can partake in the election of the chief executive.  The compromise was the Electoral College. Imperfect, but it works.

According to the archives, when it comes to amending the constitution, the issue of the electoral college leads the way by far with over 700 proposed constitutional amendment bills. Significantly more that for any other single issue.

To me, the issue is not the Electoral College, but in how each state chooses (and it is their choice) of how to assign the electors.  There is no federal law that mandates a "winner take all" schema as illustrated by Nebraska and Maine who have a modified proportional way of assigning electors.

Perhaps the solution is for each state to decide to assign their electors according to the proportion of the popular vote in that state.  No more of this winner take all. No Constitutional Amendment needed, just a change to the individual state law.

The downside of using proportional allotment of electors is that it is quite possible that at the end of the election, no candidate will get the majority of electors across the nation. The Electoral College is one of the few if not the only election in the US that requires a majority instead of just a plurality to win. This would necessitate a run-off election of the top candidates.  Other countries have run-off elections.

I wonder how the American people would react to a run off election?  One thing that American's like is to get the election over and done with so they can go back to posting on the Internets Tubes.  :)

Prolonging the agony of elections by having a run-off election (or worse two?) would be a cultural change. 

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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6331 on: September 22, 2017, 06:24:03 am »

I agree with you about the nature of laws, crime, and punishment.

But... do we really have to make it so easy, so enticing, so tempting?

Would you risk 10 Years in prison and a felony conviction for the rest of your life just to be able to cast one additional vote out of 50,000,000 votes?

I sure wouldn't. The "benefit" of my one extra vote is no where worth the risk of prison and a felony record.

Each state runs elections according to their laws.  I also don't agree with the way NH runs their elections, but I am not a resident of NH.  Clearly the legislation (which was republican at the time) agreed to running their election that way.  Their state, their choice, their consequences.

I don't think the states want the federal government dictating how the individual states run elections..... but it may come to that.

To me, a much better solution is for the states to fix these problems themselves and work with the other states to have an interstate (instead of federal) voter registration database. 

The problem is that each state does not consider this problem to be a problem... and that can be a problem.  ;)

Perhaps what will happen is that we may have separate elections for State and Federal offices.

State elections are run according to the individual state laws
Federal elections are run according to federal laws.

That might be an acceptable compromise.  And expensive one, but a workable one.
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6332 on: September 22, 2017, 06:29:18 am »

Presidential elections need to be decided by a cage match.

Pay per view to help out with the debt.  The international viewership alone will take care of a lot of it.

Primaries:  10 walk in, 1 walks out

Final election:  2 walk in, 1 walks out

"How badly do you want to be president?"

I can just imagine that Star Trek "Kirk vs Spock" fighting soundtrack for this.  ;D
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6333 on: September 22, 2017, 10:08:39 am »

I think it might have had something to do about national security? You know, like Flynn talking to the Russians about lifting sanctions or Flynn talking to Saudi Arabia about installing Russian nuclear reactors or Flynn talking about kidnapping a Turkish dissident and sending him to Turkey or how about Jared Kushner talking to the Russians about using a back channel method (the Russian consulate) to negotiate so the US intelligence agencies couldn't eavesdrop or how about Kushner meeting with a Russian bankers who is under sanction and can't do business in the US or how about Kushner and Flynn secretly meeting with the King of Abdullah II of Jordan (to again pitch  build nuclear reactors there) and Kushner and Flynn as well as Bannon met with United Arab Emirates crown prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan. Why all that contact?

Boy, Flynn and Kushner sure were doing a lot of talking to people who they prolly shouldn't have been talking to about stuff they prolly shouldn't have been talking about.

But no worries...good ol' Bob Mueller will be taking care of all of that stuff and if somebody broke the law, then they will go to prison.

But the House intelligence committee had Barbara Rice in close session to explain exactly why she did what she did and the committee stated (even the GOP members) that Rice did nothing wrong or illegal. So, unless you know something the House intelligence committee doesn't know, ya might want to get over the whole Obama being nosey business. He and the rest of his administration were doing the people's business.

Here's the article that contains information about Rice...

SUSAN RICE EXPLAINS WHY SHE UNMASKED TRUMP OFFICIALS


Rice is a liar.  This is the same Susan Rice who lied on 5 different Sunday news stations about the Benghazi attack.  She said the attackers were not terrorists or combatants but just some regular people upset about what someone said about the Koran.  Those were all lies.  She and Obama and the Administration already knew days earlier that they were armed combatants who used machine guns and rocket propelled grenades who deliberately planned their attack on the anniversary of 9-11 on our embassy that killed our ambassador.  Rice hid the real reasons to protect Obama for the upcoming election of 2012 so it wouldn't appear he lost control and terrorists were again gaining an upper hand.   

They read the Flynn transcripts hoping to find some dirt on Flynn so they could weaken Trump during the presidential campaign.  She lied to the Senate about unmasking as she lied to the news stations about Benghazi. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6334 on: September 22, 2017, 10:10:17 am »

This is quite an indictment of the process: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/21/obamacare-repeal-division-earlier-bills-242997 , the idea that it's more important to pass something, anything, before an arbitrary deadline just so that a campaign promise appears fulfilled. Shouldn't the needs of citizens be paramount? Aren't the details the most important part?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6335 on: September 22, 2017, 10:20:36 am »



Gotcha!

See, the news media would rather dump on Trump about his gaffe rather than tell us what he said about their health system that he liked.  Unfortunately, that's what the fake news media does all the time.  They just want to tear Trump down.  They look for stupid little things to attack him and don't even mention the good things he said or minimize them.  When Obama once said there were 58 states the USA, the media still told the world the main thrust of his speech.  They didn't focus on Obama's gaffe. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6336 on: September 22, 2017, 10:39:04 am »

...Shouldn't the needs of citizens be paramount?...

You say that as if ObamaCare matters to all citizens. It doesn't to a vast majority.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6337 on: September 22, 2017, 10:41:28 am »

Five

In 1824, John Quincy Adams
In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes
In 1888, Benjamin Harrison
In 2000, George W. Bush
In 2016, Donald Trump

Not insignificant, but I agree, hardly so many.

But good call on Alabama. Not too many know that.  The way Alabama worked their electors was .... unusual.

The intent of the electoral college is to elect the candidate that garners the majority of the votes in the majority of states. Not just the majority of votes.  Like most things in our government, it was a compromise.  Similarly with representation in the Congress, there was a schism between large population states and low population states and how each can partake in the election of the chief executive.  The compromise was the Electoral College. Imperfect, but it works.

According to the archives, when it comes to amending the constitution, the issue of the electoral college leads the way by far with over 700 proposed constitutional amendment bills. Significantly more that for any other single issue.

To me, the issue is not the Electoral College, but in how each state chooses (and it is their choice) of how to assign the electors.  There is no federal law that mandates a "winner take all" schema as illustrated by Nebraska and Maine who have a modified proportional way of assigning electors.

Perhaps the solution is for each state to decide to assign their electors according to the proportion of the popular vote in that state.  No more of this winner take all. No Constitutional Amendment needed, just a change to the individual state law.

The downside of using proportional allotment of electors is that it is quite possible that at the end of the election, no candidate will get the majority of electors across the nation. The Electoral College is one of the few if not the only election in the US that requires a majority instead of just a plurality to win. This would necessitate a run-off election of the top candidates.  Other countries have run-off elections.

I wonder how the American people would react to a run off election?  One thing that American's like is to get the election over and done with so they can go back to posting on the Internets Tubes.  :)

Prolonging the agony of elections by having a run-off election (or worse two?) would be a cultural change. 



Elector process as required in the Constitution is what causes us to have a two party system.  The fact you need 50+% of the electoral vote to become president reduces the chances that third party candidates will run.  That's why the states allocate all the electoral votes to the majority vote getter in their state.  Apportioning them would guarantee third and fourth party runs.  If no one gets the majority of electoral votes, likely if there are more than two parties as in a Parliamentary system, then the House of Representatives decides who the next president will be.  Of course, the party who is in power in the House will select their party's candidate.  So states have no incentive to divide their electoral votes by proportioning them to the popular vote in their state.  It's winner take all. (Maine is one state that splits its vote.  They're strange up there :)) 

Because of the electoral vote, the whole two party system filters down to Senate, Congressman, and individual State and local government positions elections.  The two parties garner all the power so the entire country is running on democrats and republicans.  Sure there are other parties that enter candidates such as the Liberal Party, Green Party, Communist Party, Know-Nothing Party, etc.  But most people belong to the two main parties. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6338 on: September 22, 2017, 10:42:29 am »

Would you risk 10 Years in prison and a felony conviction for the rest of your life just to be able to cast one additional vote out of 50,000,000 votes?

I sure wouldn't...

You and I wouldn't, but this guy would (and did). Though just for 100 days in prison. I am sure he would carry those 100 days as a badge of honor for the rest of his life.

https://saboteur365.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/student-gets-prison-term-for-registering-dead-people-as-democratic-voters/

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6339 on: September 22, 2017, 11:00:36 am »

You say that as if ObamaCare matters to all citizens. It doesn't to a vast majority.
+1. 

85% of Americans were perfectly happy with their health plans before Obamacare.  Most got theirs  through their employer and paid a reasonable amount.  Because of Obamacare, the whole system has been turned topsy turvy.  Regular people who had insurance can't afford it any longer or their deductibles are so high, they can't really use the insurance except if they have major health issues.

If we wanted to help people in the 15%, we should address only those people.  Keeping a competitive system otherwise would continue to provide the best research and doctors generally for everyone.  Going to a government system is just going to result in lousy health care. 

I'm on Medicare for over age 65.  All the better doctors in NYC are opting out of Medicare because they refuse to accept the low payments Medicare requires them to accept.  If you want their services, you have to pay out-of-pocket, the full amount they charge.  Secondary insurance policies won't pick up any of the charges either because primary, Medicare, refuses. So you would have to pay for full services. 

My wife when she was 63 had bone surgery to repair a break by one of the best orthopedic surgeons in the country.  It cost her nothing for his operation.  It was all picked up by her private health insurance paid for by her and her employer.  Two weeks ago, she needed additional surgery by this same surgeon to remove the plate he had put in  during the first operation.  Because she is now on Medicare and this same surgeon had opted out of Medicare, it cost us $5300 in direct payments to him.   We will get no reimbursements from Medicare or our secondary private insurance.  Fortunately for us, the anesthesiologist, who had not opted out of Medicare, charged us $2800.  However, Medicare is paying him only $250 which he'll have to accept.  How long will he continue to accept Medicare's low payments? 

So unless you're rich, your stuck with crappy surgeons and other specialists.  If Medicare or government single payer goes national, the same thing will happen for younger people.  If the government forces better doctors to accept low Medicare or government mandated fees, then smart students will switch to law and other professions and we'll no longer have the best doctors available to care for us even if we're willing to pay out of pocket.
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