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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 917143 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5000 on: August 15, 2017, 07:59:21 am »

Copied from elsewhere -

There's a massive statue of the Duke of Sutherland on the hill above Golspie. This was the man directly responsible for the forced eviction of his tenants in order to replace them with sheep. Many died as a result, either through homelessness, being forced to work at sea or during the journey to the US/Canada etc. There have been various campaigns to have the statue removed, some official, some involving pick-axes and dynamite. The statue remains. As a result, many tourists ask about it and this offers an opportunity to tell them about the Highland Clearances, something they may not have otherwise come across. By leaving the statue in place, it has therefore become a rather ironic reminder of one mans greed and a system that allowed him to get away with it.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5001 on: August 15, 2017, 08:03:38 am »

Pieter - I think we largely agree, but maybe if we had been born with a different skin colour and a different history and a different life experience we'd have a different viewpoint. Just a suggestion.
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5002 on: August 15, 2017, 08:17:36 am »

Pieter - I think we largely agree, but maybe if we had been born with a different skin colour and a different history and a different life experience we'd have a different viewpoint. Just a suggestion.
I think so too, but why couldn't the Lee statue serve the same purpose as the one from the Duke of Sutherland? I think it's much more important to fight racism today vs. trying to give a signal about racism that happened 140 or more years ago.

Regarding some of your other examples, I have no problem with statues of dictators that they raised for themselves to be removed quickly after their regime falls (Hitler, Stalin, Sadam, ....)
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jeremyrh

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5003 on: August 15, 2017, 08:28:30 am »

You could well be right about the value of keeping the Lee statue.

I suspect that the difference is that there are not any longer Scots who are suffering from the Highland Clearances and nobody regarding him as a hero whereas racial discrimination is still very real in the US. That's just an impression from a distance
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5004 on: August 15, 2017, 08:43:48 am »

More examples - exceptions to prove (sensu stricto) the rule:

Statues of Buddha in Afghanistan
Statues of Stalin
Statues of Hitler
Milan railway station (as above)
Statue of "Bomber" Harris (WW2 RAF hero/villain)

Like I suggested about starting to book burn again, where does it end?  I could justify ISIS destroying the temple of Baal in Palmyra.  After all, Baal represented idol worship and multiple Gods.  It seems perfectly reasonable to destroy an edifice that is sacrilegious if you can destroy a statue that may represent slavery.   In fact, the next step could be destroying people who refuse to conform and switch their faith to Sunni Islamism.  Wait, ISIS did that already didn't they? 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5005 on: August 15, 2017, 09:04:17 am »

Jurisdictions change their public monuments from time to time and they have every right to do so. It's not book burning, it's not re-writing history, it's not the alt-left practising mind control.

How many slavery museums are there? How many museums commemorating the genocide of American Indians are there? How many kids learn THAT history in schools? THAT's re-writing history, THAT's mind control. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5006 on: August 15, 2017, 09:25:25 am »

Jurisdictions change their public monuments from time to time and they have every right to do so. It's not book burning, it's not re-writing history, it's not the alt-left practising mind control.

How many slavery museums are there? How many museums commemorating the genocide of American Indians are there? How many kids learn THAT history in schools? THAT's re-writing history, THAT's mind control. 
Interesting you mention American Indians.  Should we tear down statues of General Custer who killed Indians and help take their lands away.  Well then we should tear down statues of President Grant who ordered Custer as president to do it.  But wait, didn't we honor and build statues for Grant when he was General of the northern Army for winning the Civil War that ended slavery and freed the South?   Gee, this is getting all so confusing.

The point is statues represent history.  And no man or woman, as famous as they are, doesn't have warts.  But the reason we build statues is because they are famous and have effected our history and the world in a great way.  I recently was watching a NatGeo show on some archeological digs of pharaohs and kings. I thought it odd when the panned the camera over painted relief walls depicting the history of wars won by various pharaohs.  In many you only see their bodies because their faces had been chopped out by subsequent leaders who wanted to erase their memory.  It was sad and disappointing to see that destruction as if we can change history with an eraser. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5007 on: August 15, 2017, 09:42:05 am »

On the lighter side, the famous 1984 New Yorker Magazine cartoon on famous men who cannot be appreciated:
https://condenaststore.com/featured/new-yorker-may-7th-1984-mischa-richter.html

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5008 on: August 15, 2017, 09:55:07 am »

North Korea backs down on firing missiles towards Guam.  Kim changes his mind.

Funny, google only had NPR article and a few other unknown links, none of the usual NY Times or Washington Post link to articles.  I guess those newspapers would rather knock Trump about statues and racism instead of giving Trump any credit for resoluteness and no more "leading from behind".  The assault on Trump is going to backfire.  People aren't stupid.  At the end of the day, if Trump gets things done, he'll have a list of accomplishments and the left will have empty, ad-hominin, political epithets only.  The Dems ran on that in 2016 and lost.   They're going to lose again unless they start leading with positive stuff about their side.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/15/543603140/north-korea-says-it-wont-fire-missiles-at-guam-after-all

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5009 on: August 15, 2017, 10:04:08 am »

Interesting you mention American Indians.  Should we tear down statues of General Custer who killed Indians and help take their lands away.  Well then we should tear down statues of President Grant who ordered Custer as president to do it.  But wait, didn't we honor and build statues for Grant when he was General of the northern Army for winning the Civil War that ended slavery and freed the South?   Gee, this is getting all so confusing.

The point is statues represent history.  And no man or woman, as famous as they are, doesn't have warts.  But the reason we build statues is because they are famous and have effected our history and the world in a great way.  I recently was watching a NatGeo show on some archeological digs of pharaohs and kings. I thought it odd when the panned the camera over painted relief walls depicting the history of wars won by various pharaohs.  In many you only see their bodies because their faces had been chopped out by subsequent leaders who wanted to erase their memory.  It was sad and disappointing to see that destruction as if we can change history with an eraser.

No. I never said nor implied any of that.

How many statues of Robert E. Lee are there? How many slavery museums are there? NOT putting up memorials to certain things is the very definition of re-writing history. Removing one statue from one town from a park in which it may not be appropriate (from a previous poster's comment) is not the thin edge of the alt-left edge, please let's be serious.

I don't think you can justifiably argue that the fact of the confederacy has been kept hidden from the public and that evil forces are trying to hush it all up. That's simply not a reasonable position to take.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5010 on: August 15, 2017, 10:22:04 am »

This is all about the left and Democrats trying to separate us from being American through division politics.   Rich vs poor,  white vs black,  male vs female,   multiculturalism,  etc.   Anything to divide us to cause us too fight and to pick up votes.     

Knowledgeable vs ignorant?

So, it would be useful if your "opinion" was based in realities vs your own prejudice. Rather than be a left/democrat vs a right/GOP situation, it reality it's a bipartisan movement to address the past and make sure that the messages being sent by local, city and state governments does not unfairly denigrate any particular group.

It was Republican Governor Nikki Haley who asked the South Carolina legislature to take up the issue of removing the Confederate flag from South Carolina’s statehouse grounds. The flag was removed and placed in a museum for storage. The debate and decision to remove the flag came after the mass shooting of nine worshipers at a historic black church in Charleston.

So, it seems it's not just the left and Democrats dealing with the issue, huh?

Guess what southern Senator supported removing the statue of Jefferson Davis from the Kentucky statehouse? Would you consider Senator Mitch McConnell to be on the left? Last I heard he was a Republican, right?

Following a massacre at a black church in Charleston, South Carolina, a bipartisan mix of officials across the country is calling for the removal of Confederate flags and other symbols of the Confederacy from public places.

Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley (R) ordered the immediate removal of four different Confederate banners, including the battle flag, from an 88 -foot-tall memorial that stands at the Capitol entrance nearest the governor's office. Jefferson Davis, the lone president of the Confederacy, is said to have laid the cornerstone at a ceremony in 1886.

Leaders of the Republican-controlled state are divided on whether to alter the Mississippi flag, a corner of which is made up of the Confederate battle flag. U.S. Sen. Roger Wicker (R) joined state House Speaker Philip Gunn (R) on Wednesday in saying the emblem is offensive and must be removed.

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan's press secretary says the Republican leader opposes the use of the Confederate flag on the state's license plates.

A spokesman for North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory says the Republican plans to ask the General Assembly to pass a law that would discontinue the use of the Confederate flag on specialty license plates for the Confederate Veterans. Like those in other states, the plate features the group's logo, which has the flag.

Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers from Tennessee called for a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate general and an early leader in the Ku Klux Klan, to be removed from an alcove outside the Senate chambers at the Statehouse. The bust, inscribed with the words "Confederate States Army," has been at the Capitol for decades.

In Texas, the Supreme Court ruled last week that the state was within its rights to refuse to issue personalized license plates showing the Confederate flag. The court rejected a free-speech challenge. The Sons of Confederate Veterans had sought a Texas plate bearing its logo with the battle flag.

Are you getting the drift here? This ain't the left wing socialist democrats trying to force things down the fine, upstanding Alt Right, Neo-Nazi, KKK White Supremacists' throats.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5011 on: August 15, 2017, 10:40:31 am »

Interesting that you bring up Custer...(course he was a Civil War hero before fighting Native Americans)

Interesting you mention American Indians.  Should we tear down statues of General Custer who killed Indians and help take their lands away.


Memorial statue of General Custer, located in New Rumley, Ohio.

Custer statues did not fare well

Quote
What I call a mystery, some might call a curse. Four major attempts to memorialize George A. Custer with large bronze statues have resulted in strange twists.

Plans were made to erect statues of Custer at the West Point Academy in New York; Washington, D.C.; Monroe, Mich.; and Fort Abraham Lincoln. Of those plans, only two were erected.

Only one statue can still be accounted for, and it was moved from a city’s public square to what Custer’s widow, Libbie, claimed to be “stuck in the woods.”

In 1879, a statue of Custer was unveiled at West Point. Five years later, because of Libbie’s disapproval, it was removed and has since disappeared. As a result, the reported plan to erect a statue in the nation’s capitol was consequently scuttled.

In 1910, his statue in the public square at Monroe was unveiled and has been relocated three times. Plans were made to erect a statue of Custer at Fort Lincoln in 1954, but after the model was molded, the chief sponsor died and the project came to a halt.

I was first alerted about a Custer statue on Oct. 24, 2011, when I received an email from Major Andrew Swedberg, an instructor at West Point. Swedberg, a native of Detroit Lakes, Minn., had been researching the whereabouts of the statue that stood at the academy from 1879 to 1884. I had no luck tracking down the statue after 1900, and also became fascinated about other proposed and actual statues of Custer.

And from Indian Country Today comes this...

5 Monuments Guaranteed to Drive Natives Nuts

Quote
Statue of Liberty
Mount Rushmore
Columbus Circle
Andrew Jackson Monument
George Armstrong Custer Equestrian Monument

Read the article to find out why...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5012 on: August 15, 2017, 10:45:32 am »

No. I never said nor implied any of that.

How many statues of Robert E. Lee are there? How many slavery museums are there? NOT putting up memorials to certain things is the very definition of re-writing history. Removing one statue from one town from a park in which it may not be appropriate (from a previous poster's comment) is not the thin edge of the alt-left edge, please let's be serious.

I don't think you can justifiably argue that the fact of the confederacy has been kept hidden from the public and that evil forces are trying to hush it all up. That's simply not a reasonable position to take.

First off, I'm a northerner from New York, never owned a slave nor did my family.  My grandparents came to America around 1900 long after the Civil War.  Regarding statues anywhere, outsiders should mind their business.  It's up to the locals to decide.

Regarding Lee, all I'm saying is that we don't want to start ripping down representations of our history.  He was a very consequential man.   Lee was a Union officer for 32 years who fought in the US Army in the Mexican War.  He was superintendent of New York's West Point - the US Military Academy.  In any case, Lee represented more than slavery which was legal at the time.  He thought the south was wrong for wanting to leave the Union.  But during a time when people still said The United States of America are....rather than the singular ...is..., people had loyalty as much maybe more to the State they came from.  He was offered to lead a Union army when the Civil War broke out.      But he refused as his honor would not allow him to raise his sword against his beloved State (Commonwealth) of Virginia, where this statue issue in Charlottesville, VA is happening. 

He was a very interesting man.  A great leader and humanist despite his approval of slavery.  A big contradiction just like other slave owners like Washington, Jefferson and others earlier.  If he was alive today, I think he'd be at the forefront of equal liberties for everyone.  If you'd like to read more about this impressive man, here's a link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5013 on: August 15, 2017, 10:48:25 am »

Funny, google only had NPR article and a few other unknown links, none of the usual NY Times or Washington Post link to articles.

From Google:

North Korea Says It Will Wait 'a Little More' Before Acting on Guam ...
New York Times-4 hours ago


North Korea’s Kim Jong Un appears to ease rhetoric in standoff over nuclear weapons

WaPo: By Anna Fifield and Dan Lamothe August 14 at 8:23 PM

Maybe your Google is broken?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5014 on: August 15, 2017, 10:58:00 am »

WAPO did have this story...

After Charlottesville, Trump retweets — then deletes — image of train running over CNN reporter

Quote
President Trump's war with CNN went off the rails Tuesday morning after he retweeted an image of a Trump train running over a CNN reporter, then quickly deleted it after the meme sparked criticism as inappropriate just days after the Charlottesville violence.

Trump was in the middle of his usual morning tweetstorm when he sent the image, posted by a supporter who added “Nothing can stop the #TrumpTrain!!," to his nearly 36 million followers.



The president quickly deleted his handiwork but not before the original tweet had been retweeted hundreds of times and was captured on screen shots by journalists and activists.

Trump's promotion of the image came three days after a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville turned into a violent clash between the supremacists and counterprotesters.

So, idiot or asshole or both?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5015 on: August 15, 2017, 10:58:38 am »

Interesting that you bring up Custer...(course he was a Civil War hero before fighting Native Americans)

Custer statues did not fare well

And from Indian Country Today comes this...

5 Monuments Guaranteed to Drive Natives Nuts

Read the article to find out why...

Yes, our forebears were terrible people.  I think all we Americans should pack our bags and move back to where we came from. 

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5016 on: August 15, 2017, 11:01:27 am »

Has there been a history in the United States of either states or local communities removing statues unrelated to the Civil War?  I am trying to research that now.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5017 on: August 15, 2017, 11:05:13 am »

 Veni, vidi, vici.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5018 on: August 15, 2017, 11:09:39 am »

From Google:

North Korea Says It Will Wait 'a Little More' Before Acting on Guam ...
New York Times-4 hours ago


North Korea’s Kim Jong Un appears to ease rhetoric in standoff over nuclear weapons

WaPo: By Anna Fifield and Dan Lamothe August 14 at 8:23 PM

Maybe your Google is broken?
I just clicked on my regular Google news link and got nothing this time on this NK backdown.

I think the headlines you posted tell it all.  The way they write it, so blasé.   "...Wait a Little More..." and "...appears to ease rhetoric..."   Neither liberal, anti-Trump paper used words like "Kim Backs Down", or "Trump Pressure Causes Kim to Reverse Threat."  It's the same "fake" news biased to never give Trump credit for anything. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5019 on: August 15, 2017, 11:11:32 am »

Veni, vidi, vici.
In what way do you mean, Slobodan?
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