Trump II

[Farmer]

The lower court stopped all reviews of vetting procedures.   It wasn't until June 12 that the appeals court removed that restriction.
SCOTUS didn't just say the lower court didn't  just consider the issue.   They stated  9-0 and you stated in your earlier post that the president is at his strongest when he restricts aliens that have no ties to America or Americans.   Why would they change that understanding in their final decision in October?

You're not reading, Alan.  They said that the lower court did not adequately consider.  They themselves have not yet considered.  But, because they feel the lower court did not consider adequately, they have ruled out part of the lower court's decision.  That in no way pre-empts what they may decide once they consider the issue.

And, as I've just said to Slobo, if Trump had any idea at all, he could have had the vetting reviewed and updated and in place by now, but that wouldn't have been showy enough or "big" enough for him, instead he stuffed it up completely because he's vastly under qualified for the job.

[Schewe]

Manaforts company work in Ukraine ended in 2014.

Did it? How do you know...

Seems like there's a lot to ponder about Manafort's finances...

Paul Manafort's off-the-books funding appears to include $20 million from Trump associates

On August 19, just weeks after the Republican convention, Paul Manafort resigned as campaign chairman of Donald Trump’s campaign. Manafort left under pressure as stories of his corruption, secret funding by the Russians, and anti-NATO activities were growing almost daily.

Fresh details of alleged secret payments allocated for Paul Manafort by the pro-Russian party of Ukraine’s former president have emerged after 12 itemised regime accounting entries, totalling $7.61 million, were obtained by The Times.
But as it turns out, Manafort did not go quietly into that good night. Or at least, he did not go cheaply.

Papers were recorded that same day creating a shell company controlled by Mr. Manafort that soon received $13 million in loans from two businesses with ties to Mr. Trump, including one that partners with a Ukrainian-born billionaire and another led by a Trump economic adviser. They were among $20 million in loans secured by properties belonging to Mr. Manafort and his wife.
Why was Manafort picking up millions from Trump’s associates as he went out the door? That’s not clear. On one front, he seems to have been going through a “personal crisis” related to bad investments. But if that’s true, how did he possibly qualify for $20 million in loans?

The idea that Manafort served on the Trump campaign “for free” has been brought up frequently by Trump, by Manafort, by Spicer, by Conway, by everyone trying to make Manafort’s role in Trump’s campaign seem smaller.

But ending up with $20 million on the day he left the campaign, doesn’t make Manafort’s work seem all that gratis. In fact, it seems like exactly the sort of off-the-books funding that Manafort was infamous for in other jobs.

So, what did Manafort do that was worth $20 million in loans?

[LesPalenik]

That is really affront to Ukrainian citizens whose average monthly salary is $200.

Why?

I don't feel I am qualified to report about the suffering of Ukrainian people under all their corrupt presidents, but if want to find out more, just google "poverty in Ukraine" or "Viktor Yanukovych corruption".
As to Manafort, what kind of person would get involved with pro-Russian and corrupt Yanukovych and other dictators (in Zaire and Philippines)?

Ernst & Young (in 2012) put Ukraine among the three most corrupted nations of the world together with Colombia and Brazil. In 2015, The Guardian called Ukraine "the most corrupt nation in Europe". United States diplomats have described Ukraine under Presidents Kuchma and Yushchenko as a kleptocracy, according to Wikileaks cables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...The Guardian called Ukraine "the most corrupt nation in Europe". United States diplomats have described Ukraine under Presidents Kuchma and Yushchenko as a kleptocracy...

And all that stopped, of course, when the US overthrew the "pro-Russian," legitimately elected president? And the new one, an oligarch himself, who became billionaire in the same corrupt system and by corrupting his way to the top, is the shining example of virtue?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...Trump is trying to sell a narrative of imminent attack...

Says who? His supporters understand it rather well that it is not just about imminence, but preventing a long-term damage from cancer. You are not going to get cancer by lighting your first cigarette. Although, to stay within the metaphor, if you light an electric cigarette, it might explode in your face

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... what kind of person would get involved with pro-Russian and corrupt Yanukovych...

What kind of person would make such a statement? (Sorry, Les, don't mean to pick on you personally, this is a rhetorical question). Yanukovich was a legitimately elected president, elected by the majority of Ukrainians, and that majority definitely is not pro-Russian.

And what's up with that "pro-Russian" curse? Since the fall of communism, every major Western company and institution entered Russia, established its presence there or is doing business with it otherwise. Shall all they be cursed as "pro-Russian"? Russia is not the enemy, but a partner with its own geopolitical interests, just like we have ours. If we try to encroach it and bring it to its knees, they'll fight back, of course.

[kers]

...Russia is not the enemy, but a partner with its own geopolitical interests, just like we have ours. If we try to encroach it and bring it to its knees, they'll fight back, of course.

Tell that to the people living in Ukraine. Not to mention the Tartars living in the Krim

[LesPalenik]

What kind of person would make such a statement? (Sorry, Les, don't mean to pick on you personally, this is a rhetorical question). Yanukovich was a legitimately elected president, elected by the majority of Ukrainians, and that majority definitely is not pro-Russian.

And what's up with that "pro-Russian" curse? Since the fall of communism, every major Western company and institution entered Russia, established its presence there or is doing business with it otherwise. Shall all they be cursed as "pro-Russian"? Russia is not the enemy, but a partner with its own geopolitical interests, just like we have ours. If we try to encroach it and bring it to its knees, they'll fight back, of course.

Slobodan, that sentence was more about Manafort than Yanukovych.
There is nothing wrong to be an equal partner with Russia, but being a Moscow's stooge is a different story. BTW, Yanukovych was not the only leader from the former Soviet block to lean that way. 

Similar to Trump, Yanukovych won also narrowly the election - against Julia Tymoshenko (who was also not an angel and neither is Poroshenko), and he was famously gaffe-prone and appeared at times to struggle to put words to his thoughts. He even used to boast to other heads of state about how corrupt he was, according to Georgia's former president Mikheil Saakashvili. Corruption in Ukraine is about the same as in Russia.

[scyth]

As to Manafort, what kind of person would get involved with pro-Russian and corrupt Yanukovych and other dictators (in Zaire and Philippines)?

every single US president (Democrat or Republican) was involved on very good terms with brutal sunni dictators in Saudi Arabia and equally brutal nearby sunni sheikdoms 

[LesPalenik]

every single US president (Democrat or Republican) was involved on very good terms with brutal sunni dictators in Saudi Arabia and equally brutal nearby sunni sheikdoms 

Almost like working as a lobbyist for the tobacco industry.

[Alan Klein]

Did it? How do you know...

Seems like there's a lot to ponder about Manafort's finances...

Paul Manafort's off-the-books funding appears to include $20 million from Trump associates

So, what did Manafort do that was worth $20 million in loans?

You're continuing innuendos against Trump.  Who cares about Manafort, what he made, who he helped in Ukraine?  It's got nothing to do with Trump and you're just trying to smear him.  Guilt by association. 

[Alan Klein]

You're not reading, Alan.  They said that the lower court did not adequately consider.  They themselves have not yet considered.  But, because they feel the lower court did not consider adequately, they have ruled out part of the lower court's decision.  That in no way pre-empts what they may decide once they consider the issue.

And, as I've just said to Slobo, if Trump had any idea at all, he could have had the vetting reviewed and updated and in place by now, but that wouldn't have been showy enough or "big" enough for him, instead he stuffed it up completely because he's vastly under qualified for the job.

The 9-0 SCOTUS ruling pretty strongly backed the president's right to exclude aliens with no relationship to America.  They're not going to  change their minds when they fully consider the whole case  That part is baked in stone.  You're just trying to undermine the "win" Trump received from SCOTUS. 

In fact, it's interesting how the fake news liberal press dropped the whole SCOTUS decision after the first day.  After using the topic against Trump for months and month, now that they lost, suddenly they're not talking about it and switched to other fake news to knock Trump.  People get it.     

[Alan Klein]

Tell that to the people living in Ukraine. Not to mention the Tartars living in the Krim

While it's terrible what some countries do to other peoples, Americans can't bleed, and pay for and get involved in every conflict.   The American Neo-cons who gave us the war in Iraq now want us to go to war with Russia.  The Democrats, who once blamed the Neo-Cons for Iraq,  are now joining them for domestic political reasons against Republicans and Trump, that has nothing to do with our security.   We should be developing good relations with Russia as the problem in the future will be China.  Having a Russian ally of ours on China's northern border will help keep China in check. 

[kers]

While it's terrible what some countries do to other peoples, Americans can't bleed, and pay for and get involved in every conflict. 

Nobody stated that…. to what post are you referring to?

The American Neo-cons who gave us the war in Iraq now want us to go to war with Russia.
 

Nobody stated that…

  The Democrats, who once blamed the Neo-Cons for Iraq,  are now joining them for domestic political reasons against Republicans and Trump, that has nothing to do with our security. 
 

sorry?  i do not understand…

We should be developing good relations with Russia as the problem in the future will be China.  Having a Russian ally of ours on China's northern border will help keep China in check.

About the first thing Trump decided was to end the proposed TTP treaty ( Trans-Pacific Partnership)
making it easy for China to enlarge its influence in the region.
https://www.ft.com/content/2fe572fc-ff39-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30

[Robert Roaldi]

While it's terrible what some countries do to other peoples, Americans can't bleed, and pay for and get involved in every conflict.   The American Neo-cons who gave us the war in Iraq now want us to go to war with Russia.  The Democrats, who once blamed the Neo-Cons for Iraq,  are now joining them for domestic political reasons against Republicans and Trump, that has nothing to do with our security.   We should be developing good relations with Russia as the problem in the future will be China.  Having a Russian ally of ours on China's northern border will help keep China in check.

Interesting how you seem to always need an enemy. Why is that? China is next, it seems. After the jihadists have been dealt with, I presume, because I thought they were the existential threat du jour, or do you think that Trump has fixed that already? In any case, what are you getting at? China is a major trading partner of the US. They have 1 billion people over there, a huge market. They're not your enemy, they're the best friend you could have. And please don't tell me that it's because of their heinous regime, because the US has been in bed with and bankrolled far worse regimes.

Your first sentence is also interesting about how America can't afford to save the world. Did anyone ask you to? I'm not saying that the US does not play a major role in world affairs, but it may not be as big as your ego would like to think. There are only 300 million of you. There are 7 billion others on the planet who get by just fine every day without your help. You are not at the centre of the universe. All empires have their day and yours didn't even have the staying power to linger and help rebuild Afghanistan. Somehow, your behaviour seems to be to drop a few bombs, tell the people at home what a great job you did, and leave a mess behind. Sooner of later, the rest of the planet is going to get sick and tired of that kind of help, if they haven't already. It's difficult to take that kind of foreign policy seriously.

As Slobodan stated above about Russia. They are a sovereign nation with their own geopolitical interests. So is China. So is everyone else. You seem to insist on viewing the world as an extension of America. I don't think it's really like that.

[Schewe]

You're continuing innuendos against Trump.  Who cares about Manafort, what he made, who he helped in Ukraine?  It's got nothing to do with Trump and you're just trying to smear him.  Guilt by association.

Well, how do YOU know his $20 million loan given him on the day he left as Trump's campaign manager had nothing to do with Trump–considering the sources of that loan. Considering Manafort DID have close ties to Russians and friends of Putin and considering Manafort is the SECOND member of Trump's campaign after Flynn to retroactively register as an agent of a foreign government what makes you think that their activities had zero to do with Trump and his campaign? That's what an investigation is all about...in the case of Flynn and potentially Manafort, they are looking at Federal charges and the possibility of jail time.

And, why all the lying? Why all the trying to hide meetings? Why are Trump's people looking and acting so guilty of something? If they have nothing to hide, quit acting like they do and get on with running the government instead of constantly re-litigating the darn election and blaming the Fake News for everything that's going wrong.

[Alan Klein]

Robert: ask the Europeans if they would like us to pull out of NATO. Ask Pacific countries if they would like us to pull out of the Pacific and leave them to the Chinese.  As a Canadian, you're also under the American Military umbrella. 


It's the Democrats and anti Trumpists who are stirring up problems with Russia.  I agree with you though that we should be friends with China.   What concerns me is that as they grow,  they will test their military power.   They've already illegally militarized islands against the world court directives in the South China Sea.   Isn't that a serious matter.   Will Canada stop their future territorial designs?   Will Canada stop them from seizing Taiwan and their free people.?  Should we leave the middle east to the Iranians?  Should we pull back too a fortress America? We did that before WWI and WWII and looked what happened.  Whay do you propose to keep peace in the world.  I'm all for getting America to stop being policeman.   We should be spending our money at home.

[Alan Klein]

Well, how do YOU know his $20 million loan given him on the day he left as Trump's campaign manager had nothing to do with Trump–considering the sources of that loan. Considering Manafort DID have close ties to Russians and friends of Putin and considering Manafort is the SECOND member of Trump's campaign after Flynn to retroactively register as an agent of a foreign government what makes you think that their activities had zero to do with Trump and his campaign? That's what an investigation is all about...in the case of Flynn and potentially Manafort, they are looking at Federal charges and the possibility of jail time.

And, why all the lying? Why all the trying to hide meetings? Why are Trump's people looking and acting so guilty of something? If they have nothing to hide, quit acting like they do and get on with running the government instead of constantly re-litigating the darn election and blaming the Fake News for everything that's going wrong.

I don't know what Manafort did with the $20 million if there was that transaction.  But neither do you.  Yet , you keep making assumption that there was collusion.  We know that Manafort was selling legally his services to foreign countries for years.

You forget that Comey, Clapper and even now some of the Democrats are admitting there's nothing there.  It just came out that even Obama knew what was going on with the Russians.  If they had seen collusion, and they were "tapping" his phone through NSA surveillance, they would have known.  Yet the Obama administration came up with no collusion. 

In any case stop the innuendos and let Mueller do his investigation.

[Schewe]

You forget that Comey, Clapper and even now some of the Democrats are admitting there's nothing there.

That may be the Trump surrogate talking points but that's not the reality.

Comey was asked about collusion of the Trump campaign with the Russians but he said he couldn't answer that in a public hearing. He never said there was no collusion, he said the investigation was ongoing...

Clapper said what he said initially about not knowing of any collusion evidence but clarified the fact that he wouldn't have known about investigations of collusion and wasn't aware that the FBI was already investigating.

What Democrats what you heard say there was no collusion?

All we know is that the investigation of collusion between Russians and the Trump campaign is on going...

We know that Trump personally had not been under investigation at least while Comey was at the FBI but we're now pretty sure Trump is under investigation by Mueller now...we know there are multiple investigations ongoing about potential collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian efforts to interfere in our election.

We also know that a lot of Trump people have lied about meeting with Russians and are under investigation and Flynn and Manafort are facing potential criminal charges and jail time and at least Flynn has asked about immunity in exchange for testimony and that his attorney has said Flynn "has a story to tell".

In any case stop the innuendos and let Mueller do his investigation.

Ok...how's this, the President of the United States of America is under investigation and Russia interfered with the election that put him in office. And it seems every day brings more bad news that exposes how poorly this president is performing his job and he seems to have an unhealthy fixation on all of the investigations to the point that he seems incapable of getting much of anything done.

Right?

[Farmer]

Says who? His supporters understand it rather well that it is not just about imminence, but preventing a long-term damage from cancer. You are not going to get cancer by lighting your first cigarette. Although, to stay within the metaphor, if you light an electric cigarette, it might explode in your face

Says Trump.  Go read his earlier rhetoric.