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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 916378 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3580 on: June 14, 2017, 03:13:00 pm »

Seth Abramson on Jeff Sessions charade :

Seth Abramson‏@SethAbramson 
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/874760740753768448

 (THREAD) AG Sessions just lied repeatedly—under oath—on topics that STRONGLY point toward collusion with Russia. Please read on and RETWEET.




The frustration of the committee turned to disbelief when Sessions said that since being sworn in as attorney general in February, he had not received a briefing on Russian meddling in the 2016 election, despite a consensus among US intelligence agencies that it represented a significant security threat.

“You never asked about it?” Angus King asked.
“No,” Sessions replied.

So, not only did Sessions not collude with the Russians but at no point did it even interest him enough to receive a briefing on Russian 'electioneering'. The highest law enforcement official in the United States.

Of course not.

Your post would make a nice novel.  Where's the evidence?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3581 on: June 14, 2017, 03:59:32 pm »

Bart, I wonder if you see the contradiction? You're quick to criticize Trump and America in our attitudes towards Muslim terrorists, yet you fail to see the discrimination in your laws regarding freedom to practice the religion of your choice. If hijab, and I assume Sikh's turbans, and Jews skullcaps, are prohibited for government employees, you're removing fundamental cultural and religious beliefs of people and the freedom to practice them.

No, it's not prohibited for all government employees, but it is for those who are in direct contact with the general public. The government is impartial, doesn't promote any belief system, and there is a strict separation between religion and state functions that interact with the public, similar to the separation between the legislature, executive, and judiciary parts of government.

So interactions between the government and residents will not be complicated by anything that residents might feel offended by or uncomfortable with and which might inhibit free contact between residents and the government and its public institutions.

Quote
Of course you have the right to do what you want. It's your country. But you shouldn't be so quick to criticize my country which is actually more tolerant and open than yours.

As long as you're not a black person, or of Native Indian descent, or LBGT, or Muslim, or ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3582 on: June 14, 2017, 06:02:00 pm »

No, it's not prohibited for all government employees, but it is for those who are in direct contact with the general public. The government is impartial, doesn't promote any belief system, and there is a strict separation between religion and state functions that interact with the public, similar to the separation between the legislature, executive, and judiciary parts of government.

So interactions between the government and residents will not be complicated by anything that residents might feel offended by or uncomfortable with and which might inhibit free contact between residents and the government and its public institutions.

As long as you're not a black person, or of Native Indian descent, or LBGT, or Muslim, or ...

Cheers,
Bart
Think about what that means if you're a Muslim.  Your official government's policy says that they don't want non-Muslims to feel offended by you because you have a different religion.  You're not good enough.  Can't you see how this can raise feelings of rejection in Muslim citizens, why they don't feel Dutch?  It's similar in France and other countries in Europe.  I understand that ISIS has presented feelings of threat.  We feel that here in America as well.  But I believe your Muslim problems pre-dated ISIS and Al Khaida.

While there are issues presented by our government against Islamism terrorism, there are no government policies or rules against Muslims practicing their religion in or out of the government. They can wear their hijab (or skullcap or turban, or cross)  in an official government work position except when the work requirements needs a change in dress to protect the individual.  We also have laws against any discrimination based on race, religion, sexual identity, etc. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3583 on: June 14, 2017, 06:59:59 pm »

Trump being investigated for possible obstruction of justice: Washington Post
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-idUSKBN195385

"U.S. President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, the Washington Post reported on Wednesday, citing unnamed officials.

Mueller is investigating alleged Russia interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and possible collusion with the Trump campaign. Former FBI Director James Comey told Congress last week he believes he was fired by Trump to undermine the agency's Russia probe. "


Cheers,
Bart
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3584 on: June 14, 2017, 09:03:51 pm »

Don't kid yourself.  It's all politics.

And so long as people want to make legal matters political, you'll have problem.  Partisanship is just a form of extremism, and that's the real problem.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3585 on: June 14, 2017, 11:24:42 pm »

Trump being investigated for possible obstruction of justice: Washington Post
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-idUSKBN195385

"U.S. President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, the Washington Post reported on Wednesday, citing unnamed officials.

Mueller is investigating alleged Russia interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and possible collusion with the Trump campaign. Former FBI Director James Comey told Congress last week he believes he was fired by Trump to undermine the agency's Russia probe. "


Cheers,
Bart
Well they're trying to destroy him. Mueller is a friend of Comey and his first 4 lawyers he hired to help him contributed to Hillary's campaign.  One of them was a counsel for her charity.  How can that be a fair investigation?  Trump lost his protection when Sessions wimped out and recused himself.  I guess he got "nervous".  That's why Trump was so upset when he did that.  Obama's AJ was totally loyal and never let an inch of space ever get between him and his buddy the President.  Now this thing will drag on through the 2018 elections and hurt the Republicans chance to hold Congress.  That's what this whole thing is all about.  Like that Shakespeare show about Caesar that's in the news, Trump's enemies are getting their knives out. 

Of course, for the average American, no meaningful legislation will be passed.  Congress, the President, the democrats, republicans and the media will be spending all their time with this distraction.  Putin must be laughing his butt off.  We accomplished for him what he couldn't accomplish by himself.

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3586 on: June 14, 2017, 11:42:52 pm »

We accomplished for him what he couldn't accomplish by himself.

Still don't believe he did it to us? Still denying the extent and depth that Russia played in the election and the politics? To the point of making us even more polarized and hateful due to the "Real Fake News" that was generated and propagated by Russian minions.

Trump supporters really need to get off the Trump surrogate talking points and look at the real information at least what has been either leaked or released by the intelligence community. You really should read the unclassified intelligence report from last Jan...

Trump doesn't want to believe that Russia had an impact because he doesn't want to admit that his winning was anything other than "the greatest presidential campaign EVER". It wasn't and history will treat Donny poorly...
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3587 on: June 14, 2017, 11:53:01 pm »

Of course, for the average American, no meaningful legislation will be passed.  Congress, the President, the democrats, republicans and the media will be spending all their time with this distraction.  Putin must be laughing his butt off.  We accomplished for him what he couldn't accomplish by himself.

That will be entirely on the GOP.  The Presidency and both houses.  They should be passing all the legislation they want with relative ease.
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Phil Brown

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3588 on: June 15, 2017, 12:16:51 am »

Chalk one up for the Standing Rock Sioux of North Dakota...

The Standing Rock Sioux Claim ‘Victory and Vindication’ in Court


Little Thunder, a traditional Lakota dancer and indigenous activists, protests outside the White House in March.
Kevin Lamarque / Reuters


Quote
A federal judge rules that the Dakota Access pipeline did not receive an adequate environmental vetting.

A federal judge ruled in favor of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe on Wednesday, handing the tribe its first legal victory in its year-long battle against the Dakota Access pipeline.

James Boasberg, who sits on D.C. district court, said that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers failed to perform an adequate study of the pipeline’s environmental consequences when it first approved its construction. In a 91-page decision, the judge cited the Corps’ study of “the impacts of an oil spill on fishing rights, hunting rights, or environmental justice” as particularly deficient, and he ordered it to prepare a new report on its risks.

The court did not, however, order the pipeline to be shut off until a new environmental study is completed—a common remedy when a federal permit is found lacking. Instead, Boasberg asked attorneys to appear before him again and make a new set of arguments about whether the pipeline should operate.

The tribe faces a mixed result: The ruling may establish some important precedents, particularly around environmental justice and treaty rights. But there’s no indication that the requirement to perform a new study will alter the outcome of the case—or even get the pipeline switched off in the interim.

“This is a a very significant victory and vindication of the tribe’s opinion,” said Jan Hasselman, the lead attorney for the case and an employee of Earthjustice, an environmental-advocacy group that represented the Standing Rock Sioux.

The pipeline will continue to move oil but that is subject to change ending the results of the new tests-which were rushed through under pressure from Trump.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3589 on: June 15, 2017, 01:00:14 am »

No!  She lost because she was a bad candidate and ran a very very horrible campaign.  (Are you reading those interviews and articles, or do you only concern yourself with Russia nowadays?) 

So, let's take this step by step...

I presume you don't doubt that somebody have the DNC and released info that was damaging to Democrats in general and Hillary in particular. You agree that happened, right?

So, do you believe Russia was involved or not?

Regardless of whether or not it was Russia, you claim it had no impact on Hillary's success/failure?

You probably accept that Podesta's emails were hacked and released cause great difficulty and embarrassment for Podesta and Hillary's campaign? Good...

So, do you think it hurt or helped Hillary's campaign? I presume you agree that it gave a lot of material for Trump to chew on but do you honestly think it didn't help Trump?

Ah, but who did it? We know Wikileaks released the emails but do you accept or reject the allegation that Russia was involved?

If you haven't read the report (and there's zero indication that Trump has) it's really pretty compelling and not in a spy thriller sort of way. It's pretty dry and you need to read the background and understand what the verbiage they use means.

Unclassified version of intelligence report on Russian hacking during the 2016 election on Scribd.

What about the paid internet trolls? From the report:
"Moscow's influence campaign followed a Russian messaging strategy that blends covert intelligence operations -- such as cyberactivity -- with overt efforts by Russian government agencies, state-funded media, third-party intermediaries and paid social media users or 'trolls.'"

Do you believe Putin himself ordered the effort? From the report:
"We assess that influence campaigns are approved at the highest levels of the Russian government - particularly those that would be politically sensitive."
If you understand the way Russia operates, nobody would expect anybody in Russia to be freelancing like he mentioned a few weeks ago. No, Vlad, it wasn't a bunch of patriotic hackers screwing with us...

Do you believe that Putin was crying a grudge against Hillary? Also from the report:
"Putin most likely wanted to discredit Secretary Clinton because he has publicly blamed her since 2011 for inciting mass protests against his regime in late 2011 and early 2012, and because he holds a grudge for comments he almost certainly saw as disparaging him."

Do you believe that is was a goal of Russia to undermine the US faith in democratic process and throughout the world? Again from the report:
"We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia's goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump."

You're a smart guy Joe, do you honestly reject the premise that Russia tried to and successfully meddled in the 2016 election? And if you accept that it was Russia, do you honestly think it had zero impact on the two campaigns; hurting Hillary while helping Trump?

Do I think Russian meddling was the only reason Hillary lost? Nope...she was a flawed candidate who ran a poor campaign. But I'm pretty sure that it had an impact and that impact might have been the difference in the results.

Then ya gotta ask why so many people in Trump's world had ties and connections to Russia and why Trump STILL talks favorably about Putin and Russia? Do I think the campaign colluded with Russian operative? I don't know...the investigation is still going on and I'm willing to wait until it's over to make that determination.

But, the real issue isn't about collusion...that's looking backwards which does no good, the real issue is what the Russians did and how do we prevent that from EVER happening again...don't ya think that's important?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3590 on: June 15, 2017, 01:31:19 am »

Jeff, have you noticed that every statement you quoted starts with "we assess..." ? Or, to translate, "we speculate...".

You claim you know "how Russia operates." Do not kid yourself, you don't. You are simply descending  into an echo-chamber frenzy.

I've witnessed how the reports like the one you quated are generated. All it takes is a low-level analyst with a preconceived world view (like yours) to start the snow-ball effect.

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3591 on: June 15, 2017, 01:43:57 am »

I've witnessed how the reports like the one you quated are generated. All it takes is a low-level analyst with a preconceived world view (like yours) to start the snow-ball effect.

So, to be clear, are you saying that 16 intelligence agencies are wrong? That Russia didn't try to influence the election?

And I don't presume to understand how Russia works other than to say that I seriously doubt that anything done by Russian branches of government and the military does not get the approval by Putin...I also think that crossing Putin is hazardous for your health as indicated by the trail of dead Russians since the end of last year.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3592 on: June 15, 2017, 03:08:26 am »

The Art Of The Deal

First, sell $110 billions worth of arms to Saudi Arabia, and then follow up with 36 F15's to Katar for 12 billions.

USA is not alone profitting from the conflict. According to preliminary figures, in 2016 Germany exported armaments to Saudi Arabia to the tune of more than half a billion euros. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3593 on: June 15, 2017, 09:15:59 am »

So, let's take this step by step...

I presume you don't doubt that somebody have the DNC and released info that was damaging to Democrats in general and Hillary in particular. You agree that happened, right?

So, do you believe Russia was involved or not?

Regardless of whether or not it was Russia, you claim it had no impact on Hillary's success/failure?

You probably accept that Podesta's emails were hacked and released cause great difficulty and embarrassment for Podesta and Hillary's campaign? Good...

So, do you think it hurt or helped Hillary's campaign? I presume you agree that it gave a lot of material for Trump to chew on but do you honestly think it didn't help Trump?

Ah, but who did it? We know Wikileaks released the emails but do you accept or reject the allegation that Russia was involved?...

Jeff, most people myself included, agree the Russians hacked the Hillary campaign emails.  But if she lost votes, its wans't because the Russians did that but because the hack revealed once again how corrupt she is.  She colluded with Congresswomen Schultz, Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), to put the fix in against Bernie Sanders, to make sure he lost the nomination.   If Hillary and the DNC didn't collude, there would be no story.

In any campaign there are all sorts of stories and things that happen on both sides that effect the vote.  I'm sure you're aware that Democrat operatives were paid to "salt" Trump's rallies with provocateurs who would start fights and obstruct the rallies to create a greater sense of violence in Trump's campaign.  There were paid trolls on the internet against Trump.  NBC deliberately conspired with Hillary to release the tape of Trump telling Bush about "grabbing" women.  And how about all those phony women who suddenly appeared a couple of weeks before the vote claiming Trump a misogynist.  What did happen to all those women since the election anyway?  So there are all sorts of things that effect the votes.  If this thing didn't happen, or that thing wasn't exposed, or whatever, sure the vote changes.  But that's what happens in every campaign on both sides.  You're cherry picking.

Now I'm not approving Russian interference.  We should try to stop it in the future.  But it was the truth it revealed about Hillary's continuing corruption that would have effected any votes. 

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3594 on: June 15, 2017, 11:27:55 am »

I think it is important to get some terminology straight.

What exactly are we accusing the Russians of doing with respect to the 2016 elections?  Interfering or influencing?  While the two are related, they have some significant differences.

Interfering with an election means prohibiting/inhibiting Election Officers in their duties of running a fair running of the polls, collection of the votes, accurate reporting of the results. Interfering with an election is a violation of both Federal and State laws. I have not seen evidence of the Russians doing this.  I can only speak for my precinct, but there was no interference either foreign or domestic.

Influencing an election, or more accurately, influencing a campaign is attempting to change the minds/desires of the voter to sway their voting decision either for or against a specific candidate. Influencing a campaign is not intrinsically illegal.  The whole concept of a campaign, after all, is to influence the decisions of the voters.  Now the methods used to influence a campaign can be legal (advertisements for example) or illegal (voter intimidation for example).  Countries trying to influence campaigns is not unusual.  The United States spends a lot of money trying to influence the campaigns either in favour of a candidate we approve of or against a candidate we disapprove of.  The US is hardly unique in this. 

While we may not like the idea of Russia trying to influence our elections (just as I am sure Russia does not like the idea of the US trying to influence their elections), we need to look at whether any action on the part of the Russians, or their agents, was legal or illegal.  We have some laws that pertain to foreign influence.  For example, a campaign can't accept direct funding into a campaign.  But there are no laws against a foreign government sending directly to a campaign money.... just that the campaign can't legally accept it. However, there are few limitations on how a federal government can contribute funds to PACs. 

If we are accusing the Russians of trying to influence our election, we first have to determine whether the Russians did anything that was in violation of our federal or state laws. We may not like the idea of the Russians influencing our elections but that does not necessarily make it illegal. Just like I am sure the Russians and other countries don't like that the US is trying to influence their elections but that does not necessarily mean that the US is doing something illegal.

Hacking into a campaign database, may indicate that Russia was trying to influence a campaign and may be illegal (probably is), but that is not the same as the Russians interfering with our election process.

The media uses/misuses the terms influencing and interfering indiscriminately.  This may be due to ignorance or bias or perhaps a little bit of both.  I feel that in order to have a logical discussion on this topic that terms need to be defined and used properly.

1.  Is there any evidence that the Russians, or their agents tried to interfere with the election process?
2.  Is there any evidence that the Russians, or their agents tried to influence one or more of the campaigns?
2a.  Was this influential activity illegal?

I don't know what the answer is.  Perhaps the answer is that yes, the Russians attempted to influence campaigns but their activity was not illegal.

Before we embark on an investigation, I feel it is important to know exactly what we are accusing the Russians of doing.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3595 on: June 15, 2017, 11:55:46 am »

I would say we want the Russians to neither interfere or influence our elections by using sneaky methods.  We reserve the right to do those things ourselves. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3596 on: June 15, 2017, 12:41:43 pm »

I would say we want the Russians to neither interfere or influence our elections by using sneaky methods.  We reserve the right to do those things ourselves.

Nothing new under the sun:
Matthew 7:12
Luke 6:31

Geopolitics on the other hand ...

That's why in the recent elections in my country, where the number of Russian hacking attempts started increasing (as reported by the intelligence community) as the election date came nearer, preventative measures were put in place early in the process. The weakest link is usually the human factor, (spear) phishing attempts are sometimes rather sophisticated. Keeping computers off-line usually helps a lot, but there are other things that can be done as well. Proper process management should reduce the risks.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 04:30:29 am by BartvanderWolf »
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3597 on: June 15, 2017, 01:04:49 pm »

as reported by the intelligence community

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3598 on: June 15, 2017, 01:34:28 pm »



I don't get your point, what Powell did was geopolitics and had little to do with foreign intelligence gathering. He knew from the CIA that their sources were unreliable, yet Bush pushed for war. The intelligence was good, the politicians not.

Our national intelligence agency and military intelligence agency are supervised by a select number of members of Parliament and the relevant government ministers, and it was that that led to countermeasures to prevent foreign interference.

Cheers,
Bart
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3599 on: June 15, 2017, 01:48:40 pm »

Our
indeed... so they serve whatever "your" political goals are
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