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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 156160 times)

Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 09:03:08 AM »

If I ran the LULA I would have a day where all the photos would be from the Ruinous Landscape.  A polluted lake, A cityscape cut off by coal pollution,  a forest damaged by acid rain, a river that smells like.....  I'm ready to resist to protect these resources and the misinformation given to us by the present administration.

Yes, but the present admin. didn't create those existing problems; it just doesn't seem to want to believe they exist or if they do exist, to help towards solving them.

Rob

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2017, 09:21:02 AM »

If I ran the LULA I would have a day where all the photos would be from the Ruinous Landscape.  A polluted lake, A cityscape cut off by coal pollution,  a forest damaged by acid rain, a river that smells like.....  I'm ready to resist to protect these resources and the misinformation given to us by the present administration.
There are some good documentary photographers who have been doing exactly this over the years both here and abroad.  I remember W. Eugene Smith's work in Minimata Japan (think he was beaten up pretty badly by thugs while working over there).  Lee Friedlander has done some nice work on the steel plants that closed down.  More recently a young photographer, Matt Eich published a good documentary book, "Carry Me Ohio."

Regarding government funding of the arts, have we not forgotten the wonderful photography that was carried out under the auspices of the WPA?  It doesn't just have to be continued government funding but let's recognize what Standard Oil did in funding the photography project in 1943-50 that Roy Stryker managed.  It would be nice to see more corporate underwriting in this area.

We can all spend some time doing some documentary photography in our own geographical areas.  I don't think LuLa wants to get into the book publishing business but perhaps they could curate an on-line exhibit.  Just a thought.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2017, 10:42:20 AM »

... The rules were the rules and like it or not Trump won by the rules....

+1 (for the whole post)

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2017, 11:08:56 AM »

Did the Rethuglicans just 'suck it up' when Obama won the presidency?

I voted twice for the magic one - once against the crippled slayer of civilians and once against the moron of the bain  ;D - so yes, the suggestion was the same back then.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2017, 11:32:54 AM »

The rules were the rules and like it or not Trump won by the rules.

Hi Craig,

Sure, technically you are correct. But that doesn't mean that the result reflects what the total (or even a majority(?) of the) population would want.

Major blame is with those who didn't vote out of disinterest, but now feel misrepresented. They should blame themselves. Another aspect is that the US electoral process as it is, has its flaws itself.

Quote
I’m not a fan of hacking, but I’m really happy the data was made public.

Yet there seems to be suspiciously little interest in Trump's business ties that limit (or worse steer) his maneuvering space in global politics. We already saw that with the ban on Muslim travel into the USA, which we are not allowed to call a ban, although he did himself. The selectivity is amazing discrimination and unconstitutional, under the guise of terrorism prevention. None of the affected countries have perpetrated acts of terrorism in the USA, yet countries that have, e.g. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libia, other Gulf states, are not mentioned. Why.

Quote
While I’m on that subject lets not be blind to the very real possibility that the US hacks governments around the world and puts its fingers into elections as well.

As revealed by Ed Snowden, programs like 'Prism' target both foreign as well as local citizens, and government officials. What they do with the information is not obvious, but I'm not naive.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:36:50 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2017, 11:40:23 AM »

I think you're right; I also think that we should get rid of state subsidies to artists.

Just to be clear the NEA doesn't give grants to individuals, the give grants to schools, museums, foundations and other organizations to help kickstart community programs-often in communities that would never be able to fund the arts themselves...

Not for nothing but if you are going to appose something it would be useful if you understood what you appose.
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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2017, 11:45:43 AM »

There are some good documentary photographers who have been doing exactly this over the years both here and abroad.  I remember W. Eugene Smith's work in Minimata Japan (think he was beaten up pretty badly by thugs while working over there).  Lee Friedlander has done some nice work on the steel plants that closed down.  More recently a young photographer, Matt Eich published a good documentary book, "Carry Me Ohio."

Regarding government funding of the arts, have we not forgotten the wonderful photography that was carried out under the auspices of the WPA?  It doesn't just have to be continued government funding but let's recognize what Standard Oil did in funding the photography project in 1943-50 that Roy Stryker managed.  It would be nice to see more corporate underwriting in this area.

We can all spend some time doing some documentary photography in our own geographical areas.  I don't think LuLa wants to get into the book publishing business but perhaps they could curate an on-line exhibit.  Just a thought.


Oh, I'm all for corporate funding of the arts, especially if they feel inclined to sponsor me! It used to be called advertising, but came to the same thing. My little family and I did quite well out of it too, and my wife and I got to travel and work in many parts of the world we would never have otherwise seen.

I note David Bailey shot the portrait pic for the Queen's Sapphire Jubilee; if that was state-funded, then I make an exception and approve, seeing it as a commission and not a freebie, which perhaps it was, seeing it's not his first time photographing her. Who knows?

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2017, 11:50:15 AM »

Just to be clear the NEA doesn't give grants to individuals, the give grants to schools, museums, foundations and other organizations to help kickstart community programs-often in communities that would never be able to fund the arts themselves...

Not for nothing but if you are going to appose something it would be useful if you understood what you appose.

Absolutey, and I wasn't even referring to the USA, where public money can be spent by the state in any old way it chooses without my giving a toss. You know, horses in the race etc.? I understand it's taxing, but try thinking outwith America - we, people, also exist in Europe.

Rob C

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 11:54:08 AM »

Hi Jeff,

I must say that Mr. Trump came number one in the presidential race, that is the way things work. It may be he came number one by a tiny margin, that he had no majority of the popular vote, but he was number one according to the rules.

US democracy is strong and it stands on multiple pillars. There is the House of Representatives and the Senate and an independent judiciary system.

There is a problem with democracy, the voters can make a bad choice. With a stable democracy the POTUS can only do that much and can be deposed by popular voice in four years. In less stable democracies that is not a given fact.

Citizens should protest about things they find wrong, they should write to their congress-persons and express opinion.

Best regards
Erik






So, while I was writing my respectful response to a member's post, stuff got heated and the thread was closed. But since I took the time to write a respectful post with lots of info, I'm going to try a new post and ask that we stick to a healthy, respectful debate on the issues and resist the temptation of personal attacks (well, except to attacks on Trump :~)

So, he's my post as written: (thank goodness I wrote it in a document so I didn't lose it when the thread was closed)

You may be right...but I'm not sure Trump voters really knew what they were voting for because it's really hard to know what Trump truely stands for in many cases because over the years he has flipped and flopped about. It's also hard to know what he actually believes because he's a serial liar–Politifact tracked him last year and ranked him as mostly false, false or pants on fire a whopping 69.6%. So, only about 30% of what comes out of his mouth is true. Hard to really know, ya know? Heck, even Kellyanne Conway said we "should judge Donald Trump based on “what’s in his heart” rather than “what’s come out of his mouth”. The problem is it's hard to know what's in his heart.

But say they knew what they were doing when they voted for Trump. Unfortunately, the people who voted for Trump represent only 27% of of the eligible voters. Of the total of 231,556,622 eligible voters, only about 60% (138,884,643) voted. That means 92,671,979 (40%) who didn't vote and the 65,979,879 who voted for Hillary were out voted by 62,979,879 of the voting population. That means the majority of the eligible voters didn't vote for Trump. That doesn't sound like much of a mandate to me...

Point in fact, Trump just barely won. If not for about 80K voters in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania that gave Trump the electoral votes required to win, Hillary would be President now.

One can debate all you want about why, but I'm pretty sure that Russia hacking the DNC computers and Podesta's email and James Comey's handling of the email server investigation and several states' attacks on voting rights (read voter suppression) had a negative impact on the Democratic Presidential Candidate's campaign. It didn't help that Hillary didn't even bother to visit Wisconsin and didn't really get out and connect with the people who Obama was able to connect with.

So, Trump is President. But he's not my choice and I don't have to accept what he is trying to do. My goal is to help generate the action and political will to get those people who didn't vote off their asses and get involved for the midterm elections to regain control of the Senate, mitigate the House and make sure Trump can't do everything he has said he wants to do because I think it's wrong for the country.

I want to see progressives (Democrats or Independents) organize in a way similar to the way the Tea party organized after Obama was elected. I saw an article in the NYT called The Alt-Majority: How Social Networks Empowered Mass Protests Against Trump that is a sign of the times (I know, Trump thinks the NYT is fake news but hey, I think he's a fake person).

I'm not going to accept Trump's attempts at reshaping America into his likeness. I reject "Alternative Facts". I reject accepting Trump's lies as the new normal. I reject having a President who suffers from a mental disability called Narcissistic Personality Disorder (from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM5)). I even wrote a post on Facebook in case you want to read more about NPD.

I can only hope that the GOP can somehow get Trump to quit being CEO of a closely help corporation that steps on everybody but answers to nobody and learn how to become a President of all Americans. If you voted for Trump, I hope you are right but fear you are wrong. Sadly the Doomsday Clock has moved to just 150 seconds from midnight–the closest setting to doom since 1953.

I'm an old white guy with money who stands to benefit by what Trump is likely to do (short of all out nuclear war) but that doesn't mean I want that for my country...so far it seems everything he's done has been at the expense of the little guy and instead of draining the swamp he's refilling the water with his own brand of billionare cronyism. Really, nominating Steven T. Mnuchin for Treasury secretary is gonna get rid of the swamp?

So, I'm going to work to bring about change. I'm an old hippy at heart. I actually walked in anti-Vietnam War marches (ok, it was only the last 2 years before the war ended, but I marched). My wife and my daughter walked in the Woman's March here in Chicago–I supported them and the other 250K that walked but couldn't make it. I donated money and joined the ACLU for the first time in my life and I'm going to write letters and work in support of the NEA, PBS and NPR. I'm actually thinking of marching in Washington on Earthday to support the The March for Science. What Trump and his Trumpets are trying to do to the EPA and climate science is truly scary. So, who's with me? What other Americans are going to step up and take action?

It's our country and we should be willing to work to bring about change...if you don't then you deserve what you get...Donald J Trump-President of the United Staes of America. Is that what ya want? Really?

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 12:12:38 PM »


US democracy is strong and it stands on multiple pillars. There is the House of Representatives and the Senate and an independent judiciary system.

There is a problem with democracy, the voters can make a bad choice. With a stable democracy the POTUS can only do that much and can be deposed by popular voice in four years. In less stable democracies that is not a given fact.

Citizens should protest about things they find wrong, they should write to their congress-persons and express opinion.

Best regards
Erik
Erik,

While your statement is correct on its surface, we do not see any move by the Republican Congress to investigate our President's business ties.  We don't know how much President Trump's companies owe to foreign banks, we have not seen any evidence that he has adequately stepped away from his companies, and his sons, who ostensibly run the companies, get US taxpayer subsidized protection when traveling on business ($100K for a trip by Don Jr. to Uruguay).  Regarding the independent judiciary, Trump accused an American born jurist who has Hispanic roots of being unfit to adjudicate a trial involving Trump University.  This past weekend he insulted the Appellate Court judge who overturned the travel ban as a "so-called judge."  These are the types of behaviors that are bothering many of us.  I tolerated the victories by Richard Nixon in 1968, Ronald Reagan in 1980 and even the disputed victory of George W. Bush in 2000.  I agree that President Trump won the election because of the antiquated Constitutional provisions governing presidential elections.  I do not regard him as fit for office and find his behavior demeaning to the majority of the American public that did not vote for him.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2017, 12:14:36 PM »

... Unfortunately, the people who voted for Trump represent only 27% of of the eligible voters. Of the total of 231,556,622 eligible voters, only about 60% (138,884,643) voted. That means 92,671,979 (40%) who didn't vote and the 65,979,879 who voted for Hillary were out voted by 62,979,879 of the voting population. That means the majority of the eligible voters didn't vote for Trump. That doesn't sound like much of a mandate to me...

Ah! The 27% argument.

Wouldn't the same argument apply in case Hillary won? Would her 28% be a mandate?

As for the popular vote "win" or "loss" (you can't actually win or lose in a game you didn't compete in)... Hillary "won" the popular vote thanks to California, where Trump didn't bother campaigning much (just like she didn't bother campaigning in Wisconsin - or campaigning at all - preparing for debates instead).

Now, take CA out of the equation (given that CA wants to secede anyway) and Trump actually "won" the popular vote in the other 49 states with a 1.4 million margin. In other words, it isn't "backward" USA, flyover USA, rural USA, redneck USA that voted Trump, it is the majority of 49 states voting, it is CA vs. the rest of the USA.

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2017, 12:21:05 PM »

If you believe yourself an artist, great, just don't imagine that the rest of society might owe you for that.



Back in the '80's, I worked with this guy who truly believed that he should be able to "register" with the government as an "artist" and that the government would then give him a stipend to support himself while he did his art.  Yikes!
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2017, 12:22:50 PM »

An interesting read is Bryan Caplan's The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies

I don't agree with everything he writes and I certainly don't agree with the way he puts forth his arguments, but it is an interesting read.
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Manoli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2017, 12:23:49 PM »

Unfortunately, the people who voted for Trump represent only 27% of of the eligible voters. Of the total of 231,556,622 eligible voters, only about 60% (138,884,643) voted. That means 92,671,979 (40%) who didn't vote and the 65,979,879 who voted for Hillary were out voted by 62,979,879 of the voting population. That means the majority of the eligible voters didn't vote for Trump. That doesn't sound like much of a mandate to me...

Point in fact, Trump just barely won. If not for about 80K voters in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania that gave Trump the electoral votes required to win, Hillary would be President now.



Now, take CA out of the equation (given that CA wants to secede anyway) and Trump actually "won" the popular vote in the other 49 states with a 1.4 million margin. In other words, it isn't "backward" USA, flyover USA, rural USA, redneck USA that voted Trump, it is the majority of 49 states voting, it is CA vs. the rest of the USA.

Sure as hell doesn't look that way ..
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stamper

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2017, 12:52:25 PM »

In a democracy a strong opposition is essential. The "winner" doesn't become a dictator and do what they like. A strong opposition will push Trump into overstepping himself and his four years won't run it's full time and a sane leader will be elected and the world, as well as the USA, will be a safer place. The more you prod Trump the bigger the reaction will reveal his hubris and eventually there will be a reaction which will get him impeached. :)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2017, 12:59:57 PM »

Hi,

I find that statement of Mr. Trump very much disrespectful, ignorant, stupid and unethical.

Best regards
Erik

This past weekend he insulted the Appellate Court judge who overturned the travel ban as a "so-called judge." 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2017, 01:01:44 PM »

... Sure as hell doesn't look that way ..

What exactly are you disputing from what I said? That Trump "won" the popular vote with a 1.4 million margin in 49 states, except in CA? That is a mathematical fact. Your map is showing electoral votes.

Kevin Gallagher

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2017, 01:02:00 PM »

" I actually walked in anti-Vietnam War marches (ok, it was only the last 2 years before the war ended, but I marched). My wife and my daughter walked in the Woman's March here in Chicago"

 Well it's to bad that you didn't spend some time "walking" in Viet Nam itself at the time. I'm sure we could have gotten you into a uniform somehow.
All this drama reminds me of a spoiled child the first time it's told "no" and the ensuing tantrums.

 Kevin in CT
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2017, 01:06:14 PM »

... Well it's to bad that you didn't spend some time "walking" in Viet Nam itself at the time. I'm sure we could have gotten you into a uniform somehow...

Even better, I am sure that Jeff's Hawaiian shirts would have blended in quite nicely in the Vietnam jungle. No need for a camouflage. ;)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 01:10:19 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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stamper

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2017, 01:08:14 PM »

The speaker in the Uk parliament has stated that Trump will not be allowed to address the members of parliament if he visits the UK on a state visit. Loud applause greeted the announcement.
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