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Schewe

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Trump II
« on: February 05, 2017, 07:24:37 PM »

So, while I was writing my respectful response to a member's post, stuff got heated and the thread was closed. But since I took the time to write a respectful post with lots of info, I'm going to try a new post and ask that we stick to a healthy, respectful debate on the issues and resist the temptation of personal attacks (well, except to attacks on Trump :~)

So, he's my post as written: (thank goodness I wrote it in a document so I didn't lose it when the thread was closed)

I fully believe that everyone who voted for Trump fully understood what and who they were voting for, and exactly what they were voting against.

You may be right...but I'm not sure Trump voters really knew what they were voting for because it's really hard to know what Trump truely stands for in many cases because over the years he has flipped and flopped about. It's also hard to know what he actually believes because he's a serial liar–Politifact tracked him last year and ranked him as mostly false, false or pants on fire a whopping 69.6%. So, only about 30% of what comes out of his mouth is true. Hard to really know, ya know? Heck, even Kellyanne Conway said we "should judge Donald Trump based on “what’s in his heart” rather than “what’s come out of his mouth”. The problem is it's hard to know what's in his heart.

But say they knew what they were doing when they voted for Trump. Unfortunately, the people who voted for Trump represent only 27% of of the eligible voters. Of the total of 231,556,622 eligible voters, only about 60% (138,884,643) voted. That means 92,671,979 (40%) who didn't vote and the 65,979,879 who voted for Hillary were out voted by 62,979,879 of the voting population. That means the majority of the eligible voters didn't vote for Trump. That doesn't sound like much of a mandate to me...

Point in fact, Trump just barely won. If not for about 80K voters in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania that gave Trump the electoral votes required to win, Hillary would be President now.

One can debate all you want about why, but I'm pretty sure that Russia hacking the DNC computers and Podesta's email and James Comey's handling of the email server investigation and several states' attacks on voting rights (read voter suppression) had a negative impact on the Democratic Presidential Candidate's campaign. It didn't help that Hillary didn't even bother to visit Wisconsin and didn't really get out and connect with the people who Obama was able to connect with.

So, Trump is President. But he's not my choice and I don't have to accept what he is trying to do. My goal is to help generate the action and political will to get those people who didn't vote off their asses and get involved for the midterm elections to regain control of the Senate, mitigate the House and make sure Trump can't do everything he has said he wants to do because I think it's wrong for the country.

I want to see progressives (Democrats or Independents) organize in a way similar to the way the Tea party organized after Obama was elected. I saw an article in the NYT called The Alt-Majority: How Social Networks Empowered Mass Protests Against Trump that is a sign of the times (I know, Trump thinks the NYT is fake news but hey, I think he's a fake person).

I'm not going to accept Trump's attempts at reshaping America into his likeness. I reject "Alternative Facts". I reject accepting Trump's lies as the new normal. I reject having a President who suffers from a mental disability called Narcissistic Personality Disorder (from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM5)). I even wrote a post on Facebook in case you want to read more about NPD.

I can only hope that the GOP can somehow get Trump to quit being CEO of a closely help corporation that steps on everybody but answers to nobody and learn how to become a President of all Americans. If you voted for Trump, I hope you are right but fear you are wrong. Sadly the Doomsday Clock has moved to just 150 seconds from midnight–the closest setting to doom since 1953.

I'm an old white guy with money who stands to benefit by what Trump is likely to do (short of all out nuclear war) but that doesn't mean I want that for my country...so far it seems everything he's done has been at the expense of the little guy and instead of draining the swamp he's refilling the water with his own brand of billionare cronyism. Really, nominating Steven T. Mnuchin for Treasury secretary is gonna get rid of the swamp?

So, I'm going to work to bring about change. I'm an old hippy at heart. I actually walked in anti-Vietnam War marches (ok, it was only the last 2 years before the war ended, but I marched). My wife and my daughter walked in the Woman's March here in Chicago–I supported them and the other 250K that walked but couldn't make it. I donated money and joined the ACLU for the first time in my life and I'm going to write letters and work in support of the NEA, PBS and NPR. I'm actually thinking of marching in Washington on Earthday to support the The March for Science. What Trump and his Trumpets are trying to do to the EPA and climate science is truly scary. So, who's with me? What other Americans are going to step up and take action?

It's our country and we should be willing to work to bring about change...if you don't then you deserve what you get...Donald J Trump-President of the United Staes of America. Is that what ya want? Really?

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John E

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2017, 08:06:38 PM »

Thank you, Jeff.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2017, 08:40:55 PM »

So, while I was writing my respectful response to a member's post, stuff got heated and the thread was closed. But since I took the time to write a respectful post with lots of info, I'm going to try a new post and ask that we stick to a healthy, respectful debate on the issues and resist the temptation of personal attacks (well, except to attacks on Trump :~)

So, he's my post as written: (thank goodness I wrote it in a document so I didn't lose it when the thread was closed)

You may be right...but I'm not sure Trump voters really knew what they were voting for because it's really hard to know what Trump truely stands for in many cases because over the years he has flipped and flopped about. It's also hard to know what he actually believes because he's a serial liar–Politifact tracked him last year and ranked him as mostly false, false or pants on fire a whopping 69.6%. So, only about 30% of what comes out of his mouth is true. Hard to really know, ya know? Heck, even Kellyanne Conway said we "should judge Donald Trump based on “what’s in his heart” rather than “what’s come out of his mouth”. The problem is it's hard to know what's in his heart.

But say they knew what they were doing when they voted for Trump. Unfortunately, the people who voted for Trump represent only 27% of of the eligible voters. Of the total of 231,556,622 eligible voters, only about 60% (138,884,643) voted. That means 92,671,979 (40%) who didn't vote and the 65,979,879 who voted for Hillary were out voted by 62,979,879 of the voting population. That means the majority of the eligible voters didn't vote for Trump. That doesn't sound like much of a mandate to me...

Point in fact, Trump just barely won. If not for about 80K voters in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania that gave Trump the electoral votes required to win, Hillary would be President now.

One can debate all you want about why, but I'm pretty sure that Russia hacking the DNC computers and Podesta's email and James Comey's handling of the email server investigation and several states' attacks on voting rights (read voter suppression) had a negative impact on the Democratic Presidential Candidate's campaign. It didn't help that Hillary didn't even bother to visit Wisconsin and didn't really get out and connect with the people who Obama was able to connect with.

So, Trump is President. But he's not my choice and I don't have to accept what he is trying to do. My goal is to help generate the action and political will to get those people who didn't vote off their asses and get involved for the midterm elections to regain control of the Senate, mitigate the House and make sure Trump can't do everything he has said he wants to do because I think it's wrong for the country.

I want to see progressives (Democrats or Independents) organize in a way similar to the way the Tea party organized after Obama was elected. I saw an article in the NYT called The Alt-Majority: How Social Networks Empowered Mass Protests Against Trump that is a sign of the times (I know, Trump thinks the NYT is fake news but hey, I think he's a fake person).

I'm not going to accept Trump's attempts at reshaping America into his likeness. I reject "Alternative Facts". I reject accepting Trump's lies as the new normal. I reject having a President who suffers from a mental disability called Narcissistic Personality Disorder (from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM5)). I even wrote a post on Facebook in case you want to read more about NPD.

I can only hope that the GOP can somehow get Trump to quit being CEO of a closely help corporation that steps on everybody but answers to nobody and learn how to become a President of all Americans. If you voted for Trump, I hope you are right but fear you are wrong. Sadly the Doomsday Clock has moved to just 150 seconds from midnight–the closest setting to doom since 1953.

I'm an old white guy with money who stands to benefit by what Trump is likely to do (short of all out nuclear war) but that doesn't mean I want that for my country...so far it seems everything he's done has been at the expense of the little guy and instead of draining the swamp he's refilling the water with his own brand of billionare cronyism. Really, nominating Steven T. Mnuchin for Treasury secretary is gonna get rid of the swamp?

So, I'm going to work to bring about change. I'm an old hippy at heart. I actually walked in anti-Vietnam War marches (ok, it was only the last 2 years before the war ended, but I marched). My wife and my daughter walked in the Woman's March here in Chicago–I supported them and the other 250K that walked but couldn't make it. I donated money and joined the ACLU for the first time in my life and I'm going to write letters and work in support of the NEA, PBS and NPR. I'm actually thinking of marching in Washington on Earthday to support the The March for Science. What Trump and his Trumpets are trying to do to the EPA and climate science is truly scary. So, who's with me? What other Americans are going to step up and take action?

It's our country and we should be willing to work to bring about change...if you don't then you deserve what you get...Donald J Trump-President of the United Staes of America. Is that what ya want? Really?
Jeff,  this is one and done for me in this thread.

The rules were the rules and like it or not Trump won by the rules.  The rules stated that the candidate that collected 270 or more electoral votes, had these votes cast by the States Electors and then had those votes accepted by the Congress became the 45th President.  That person is Trump.  How many people voted is meaningless.  How many stayed home is meaningless.  The total of the national votes each candidate got is meaningless.  The ONLY number that mattered was 270.  Trumps mandate is the Presidency, the House and the Senate.  And now we might be able to add a 5-4 conservative (or at least semi-conservative) Supreme court.   I think odds are he will get to place even one more before his turn is over.  Its my opinion and that of many of the Trump voters I talk to,  the Supreme Court is perhaps the biggest reason for Trumps election.   We as a country survived Obama, we will survive Trump.  The Supreme Court however lasts a lifetime. 

I believe how and why Clinton lost will be debated for years.  IMO, she was a rotten candidate with a very weak message.  And she looked lazy.  Regardless of how the info made its way to the public ( think Posdesta’s “password” password for example), the actions of the DNC and Hillary herself did not paint her in or them in a positive fashion.  Clinton only has herself to blame for the server issue.  Period.   I’m not a fan of hacking, but I’m really happy the data was made public.  While I’m on that subject lets not be blind to the very real possibility that the US hacks governments around the world and puts its fingers into elections as well. 

Yes Trump is President and I hate to break it to you but you do have to accept what he is doing if in fact it becomes codified into law.  Well I guess you could chose to break the law, or leave the country….

I celebrate you wanting to work to motivate others to vote for your vision of what America should be.  To do so is truly American.  Best of luck with your efforts.  If you are successful, I’ll be bound, to follow the laws that may come.  Just as you are now bound to do the same for Trump.   I may end up being wrong but I think the protests are going to backfire.  I think you are just making more Trump voters, not less.   Have at it!

Yes it is our country too, and yes we are willing to work to bring about change.  We won.  We voted for Trump.  305 electoral votes worth.  Really.


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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2017, 08:43:38 PM »

Thank you, Jeff.
+1.

Absolutely right on in all details.
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ripgriffith

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2017, 09:06:10 PM »

I reject having a President who suffers from a mental disability called Narcissistic Personality Disorder (from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM5)).
Erich Fromm and others have expanded upon that diagnosis, which they call "malignant narcissism", adding sadism and psychopathy to the mix.  Fromm called it, "the most severe pathology and the root of the most vicious destructiveness and inhumanity".  Sound like Trump?  BTW, I very much like and agree with your post; very articulate and cogent.
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2017, 09:38:16 PM »

Hillary would be President now.
and if your grandma 'd have those balls... Trump played the game to win according to the rules and won, so suck it up.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2017, 10:23:25 PM »

I'm an old white guy with money who stands to benefit by what Trump is likely to do (short of all out nuclear war) but that doesn't mean I want that for my country...so far it seems everything he's done has been at the expense of the little guy and instead of draining the swamp he's refilling the water with his own brand of billionare cronyism. Really, nominating Steven T. Mnuchin for Treasury secretary is gonna get rid of the swamp?

Jeff,

Very well put! That, in my view, is the key point.

He has sold to his voters change they would benefit from. And what is shaping is change that will make their situation even worse.

The most striking example I feel is his proposal to ease financial regulations. Who could believe for a second that this is going to help the least bit the farmers of Arkansas? This is going to help his friends in Wall Street, that's it (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/03/sen-warren-goes-at-trump-for-financial-rules-rollback-were-finding-out-whose-side-hes-really-on.html).

Why am I spending time on this internal American discussion although I am not an American citizenship? Various reasons:
- I feel sorry for my American friends,
- I feel sorry for myself as a citizen of the world and as a father, because I aspire for more for my daughter and for a "better world" that Trump's actions will certainly not get any of us,
- I feel that the truth must surface quickly about the disastrous impacts of Trump's actions in order to reduce the temptation of voters in other countries, such as France, to believe in the simplistic lies of populist candidates.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 10:30:16 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2017, 10:39:51 PM »

Thanks, Schewe, for a cogent, considered post.

Trump will continue to do whatever is best for Trump - that is the only thing that interests him.  If that benefits others, that's great, but he doesn't really care.  He attacks and name-called a GOP-appointed judge and pre-emptively blames him "if anything happens", yet the responsibility for signing a legal and constitutionally valid executive order remains with Trump.  That his order isn't proof against challenge is his fault.  If "something happens" then he's in charge and he's the blame - that's what happens when you're in charge - there's no one else to blame.  He will never accept that, though.  In his mind, he's never wrong, and whilst all politicians lean toward that bent, Trump is sitting at the top.


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Phil Brown

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 10:47:17 PM »

Jeff stick to photography you can see thru the lens but you can't see the forest through the trees?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 01:05:11 AM »

FYI...

H.R.861 - To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency.
115th Congress (2017-2018)

Sponsor: Rep. Gaetz, Matt [R-FL-1](Introduced 02/03/2017)
Committees: House - Energy and Commerce; Agriculture; Transportation and Infrastructure; Science, Space, and Technology
Latest Action:   02/03/2017 Referred to House Science, Space, and Technology (All Actions)
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 01:26:31 AM »

FYI...

Preserve the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities

The Arts and Humanities are a vital part of our cultural identity and enhance the quality of our lives. They connect us to the past, they speak to us in the present, and they are our legacy, our gift to the future. Investing in them is never a waste, and I strongly urge that both the National Endowment for the Arts and National Endowment for the Humanities continue to receive federal funding.

Sign This Petition

Needs 22,647 (as of this post) signatures by February 20, 2017 to get a response from the White House

77,353 SIGNED 100,000 GOAL
(only US citizens need vote–sorry)
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 01:44:00 AM »

FYI...

INDIVISIBLE

A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR RESISTING THE TRUMP AGENDA
Former congressional staffers reveal best practices for making Congress listen.

DOWNLOAD THE GUIDE

[VIDEO 2:28] Introduction to the Indivisible Guide

NOTE FROM THE INDIVISIBLE TEAM
Since this guide went live as a Google Doc, we’ve received an overwhelming flood of messages from people all over the country working to resist the Trump agenda. We’re thrilled and humbled by the energy and passion of this growing movement. We’ll be updating the guide based on your feedback and making it interactive ASAP. You can sign up for updates at www.IndivisibleGuide.com.

Indivisible: A Practical Guide for Resisting the Trump Agenda is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial- ShareAlike 4.0 International License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/.

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Chairman Bill

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 05:18:49 AM »

and if your grandma 'd have those balls... Trump played the game to win according to the rules and won, so suck it up.
I detest this anti-democratic attitude. Did the Rethuglicans just 'suck it up' when Obama won the presidency? No, they didn't; they did everything they could to frustrate his plans, including the descent into lies & misinformation that has so underpinned Trump's whole campaign & presidency so far. US democrcay isn't a one-time event, something that happens just every four years. Democracy is a process, on-going, never settled. Yes Trump won, but a fair bit of gerrymandering (aka 'cheating') underpinned that win. He won whilst losing the popular vote. He still won, but that's no reason why the rest of the people should just 'suck it up'. They have the right to complain, bitch & moan, protest, agitate for change, lobby their representatives, bitch & moan some more, throw legal challenges at the administration, refuse to comply with instructions and unjust laws, and to say "Not in my name" when Donald Little Hands tries to impose his racist, misogynist, hate-filled policies. Other than that, I agree with you 100%.

Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 06:34:52 AM »

The real problem, however, is that Mr Trump isn't operating in a vacuum. But that he were! Like it nor not, and it is a responsibility long fostered, the USA power structure affects not only the USA. Exactly as does Mr Putin sitting in one of the scales, so does My Trump squatting within the other. Where the central pointer comes to its temporary rest affects the entire world, not just two major players.

This, of course, doesn't preclude the other huge elephant: China. Perfectly able, I believe, to knock the entire set of scales over on its ass.

Common sense, restraint and extremely finely tuned diplomacy is of the essence. Remove but a single element from that list, and we are in deep shit. It starts with respect for the planet, the common base upon which we all depend if the exercise of government is not to become irrelevant due to the resulting melt-down of all else.

The first lesson Mr T should be encouraged to learn is that social networks may sway the innocent, but they are no platform for international relationships and decisions. That work is best done at diplomatic level, not within a public chat show.

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 06:38:29 AM »



The Arts and Humanities are a vital part of our cultural identity and enhance the quality of our lives

I would agree.  However, I am not sure that the Federal Government needs to get involved in the funding of the Arts and Humanities.
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kers

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2017, 06:41:02 AM »


... Yes Trump is President and I hate to break it to you but you do have to accept what he is doing if in fact it becomes codified into law.  Well I guess you could chose to break the law, or leave the country….


It will show how stabile this country is for mr Trump does not make 'the Law' on his own.

'the Law'  as he seems to see it-  is as something that has to benefit him or else it was a 'so-called judge' that made a wrong (stupid) decision.
It looks he may grow into being be the Christian Erdogan equivalent of the USA- making the country less democratic, with no free press.
Democratically chosen to bring democracy down.


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Re: Trump II
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2017, 07:27:52 AM »

From outside the USA it looks pretty obvious why Mr Trump won. It is not a surprise. The American system isn't working properly - and the same could be said of much of Europe. I guess the paradox is that peaceful, stable, prosperous government can only return when the system is working properly again but how does one bring that about without having to endure the anger and chaos of the present moment? The risk is that the present moment could drag on for years and become very unpleasant indeed. For myself, I think the disastrously one-sided settlement imposed after the bankers' crash of 2007-2008 has a lot to answer for. It's the one thing absolutely everyone has had burned into them. One law (and no penalties) for them, another law (and all the costs) for us. I'm not surprised people are hacked off.

I don't know what the answer is and I doubt a single person does. I do know, however, that the answer is not Mr Trump. He is a symptom but no solution, just as over here in the UK "Brexit" isn't going to make anything better. Perhaps in time, when the promises made by Mr Trump (or the Brexit movement) fail to materialize - they are too big and too numerous for that - people will start forgetting they voted Trump and instead begin to blame him for all the stuff that hasn't turned up. That is if he lasts the full term. I'd have thought the chances of that are rockier than they are with most previous presidents. He'll have to deal with ineptitude from his more ideological advisors, resistance from the government machine, protests and more resistance at street level and the inevitable meeting with reality in the form of Russia, China and the Middle East. A greater man might survive all that, but one handicapped by a mysterious business empire whose tax returns and loan agreements are bound to surface at some stage, not to mention an erratic personality with an itch to pick unnecessary arguments (environmental stewardship, e.g) ... one can see the professional politicians eventually deciding that Trump is an outsider they would be better off without. As an outsider Trump doesn't have much of a powerbase in politics itself and he does have a few people on his team whose resignations would be disastrous for him. None of this would be a fix for a broken system but it's still a possible outcome.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:15:05 AM by mecrox »
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2017, 07:37:48 AM »

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2017, 08:50:14 AM »

If I ran the LULA I would have a day where all the photos would be from the Ruinous Landscape.  A polluted lake, A cityscape cut off by coal pollution,  a forest damaged by acid rain, a river that smells like.....  I'm ready to resist to protect these resources and the misinformation given to us by the present administration. 
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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 09:00:10 AM »

I would agree.  However, I am not sure that the Federal Government needs to get involved in the funding of the Arts and Humanities.

I think you're right; I also think that we should get rid of state subsidies to artists. I see grants as a very doubtful strategy.

By all means fund art schools, but then let that education be the limit of the state's intervention. I see no reason at all why individuals should be funded through the public coffers once they have had their training. Subsidies simply create unnatural prices and extend the misery or, alternatively, the publicly-funded pleasures of ego-trippers riding a horse they never personally learned to break in to their requirements: a horse called Business. If you believe yourself an artist, great, just don't imagine that the rest of society might owe you for that.

I think public museums and galleries should get good funding in order to keep and also to buy great work, but not so the folks who want to get their stuff hanging inside them. Ditto dancers: because you want to leap around showing the size of your upholstered cluster is fine, just as long as you do it on your own dollar, pound, euro or whatever; I'm sure lots of rubles are still headed that way - so there's an idea.

Why would one think it moral to draw the line at artists? Why not pay weekend fishermen and hang-gliders for having their versions of fun, too? It's unreasonable to limit public funds to one section of self-entertainment but not to all others.

;-)

Rob C
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