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Author Topic: Moving to BIG prints...  (Read 7651 times)

keithcooper

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Moving to BIG prints...
« on: February 04, 2017, 05:50:19 am »

I've often wondered how people who make BIG prints (A1 and above) consider differences in their approach to editing and composition, compared with smaller prints (say 13" x 19" and below)

For the first time in many years I don't have a working wide format printer here (Karen is marvelling at how big our kitchen is) and with all the printer and paper testing/reviews I've been doing over the last year, got round to thinking about just how my approach to very big prints differs from others I make.

I've some specific points at http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/art-big-photo-print/ but was curious as to how people that make big prints, see people interact with them?

I guess my biggest surprise was that for more prints than I'd thought (hoped?), people just aren't that bothered about the ultimate in resolution - photographers are, but they don't buy big prints. That's not to say I don't go overboard with detail sometimes (multi-gigabyte images), but it's not the prime mover for more of my work that people actually pay for.

BTW Innova have asked me to do a series of talks about making big prints at 'The Photography Show' (used to be 'Focus') at the NEC (Birmingham, UK) in March (18-21), so if anyone wants to meet...

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-coopers-talks-printmaking/
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hogloff

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2017, 08:57:43 am »

I first and foremost shoot for myself and if the resulting image does not meet my standards, it does not make it out of my computer for others to see.

If we all stepped down to what the masses thought was ok from an image, we'd all be shooting cell phones as that is what the masses feel is just fine.
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keithcooper

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2017, 09:17:29 am »

I first and foremost shoot for myself and if the resulting image does not meet my standards, it does not make it out of my computer for others to see.

If we all stepped down to what the masses thought was ok from an image, we'd all be shooting cell phones as that is what the masses feel is just fine.

Not quite sure what your actual point is other than you decide what you like and we all produce the odd shot that sucks? That said, I believe photographers are rarely as good curators of our own work as we like to think we are ;-)

Since I do get people who want to buy very large prints, I'd be remiss in running my business without listening to and soliciting the views of people willing to stump up their own money...

Perhaps I should have refined my original question to give more prominence to large prints that are made for others?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2017, 01:00:14 pm »

I'm not sure I have a good answer for you Keith, but in my case my end goal when out shooting is creating compelling images that can be displayed at large sizes so the process of printing big begins when leaving for a shoot.  As such even when shooting I'm always using the maximum resolution device I can carry and even with my 100mp back I'm stitching whenever the scene allows it. While many images don't make the "cut" as it were, I don't know this when shooting and I've been burned too many times creating a nice image with less than adequate tools.

 As I work on the images I determine if I've met the goal, and through the process images which succeed go through a series of 3 test prints, first 13x19, then 17x22 on fine art paper (currently favorite is Epson Baryta), and finally 24x30 Fine art paper.  Even though I get a nice match from display to paper, there is something about how your eye interprets the print  which might make something on print look unfavorable, and despite trying hard it's amazing how often something very "small" ends up obvious on the printed image. Admittedly this work flow isn't for everyone.  To be honest I'm usually happy if I get one or two "keepers" from any shoot, and I'm pretty happy if I can add 20 or so images to my portfolio in a year.

Once I print the 24x30 and examine it closely, I then determine how large I feel it can be printed, and categorize the image based on several factors, mostly personal based on my decisions as the "artist" if you will. I have 3 "categories" which determine the available sizes and the price range of the images.  the category is entirely my decision. While I might seek some input from a trusted friend who is a very talented photographer, I personally do not seek any input from customers.  I also do not enter "contests" or engaged in other types of feedback.  I just feel I'm the artist and if my choices as an artist are poor then perhaps I'm not much of an artist.

If the image has appeal but perhaps doesn't lend itself to being printed large (subject matter, not enough resolution, etc) then it might be offered as an accent type print at sizes from 13x19 up to 24x30. If I determine it is be offered at larger sizes I examine the test print a little closer, and will perhaps work on the image a little further.  Images which I feel represent my best work both artistically and technically end up in a category with a smaller edition size and a minimum print size of 42" on the long dimension.

Even after all of that examination, after printing a large print (my sizes range from 42" to 85") I often will find small flaws on the final print, so a careful examination of the print often requires me to do some additional work on the file(missed camera spot, sometimes a mask needs tweaking because of a halo, things  like that). The biggest challenge I've had is getting the same "pop" from the image once it is printed large that it appears to have on the display or even in the 24x30 test print.  I've found that I often need to add a tiny bit of density and contrast, and perhaps even a little saturation to the image. I've also had images which looked fine small but some areas tended to look "muddy" for lack of a better word in the large print, required some adjustment brush work to optimize them.  It's not uncommon that I have to work the file further when printing the first large print, especially if it's a 74 or 85" size.

Good luck with your presentation.

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keithcooper

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2017, 01:55:36 pm »

Thanks Wayne - thats exactly what I was wondering about.

Very true about things becoming noticeable only in the biggest of prints - annoying when it happens, but keeps you on your toes.

One of the reasons I do end up talking with customers is that often they may have been involved in the design or development of a location - although it often more of a do you prefer A or B since I know that 'just' asking for opinions is something to be very wary of ;-) ... as for competitions, definitely not my thing!
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hogloff

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2017, 05:27:05 pm »

Not quite sure what your actual point is other than you decide what you like and we all produce the odd shot that sucks? That said, I believe photographers are rarely as good curators of our own work as we like to think we are ;-)

Since I do get people who want to buy very large prints, I'd be remiss in running my business without listening to and soliciting the views of people willing to stump up their own money...

Perhaps I should have refined my original question to give more prominence to large prints that are made for others?

I do make large prints for others. I sell into the high end house remodeling market where many of my prints are a main focal point in the living room. I'm just saying its me that determines if a image passes my own standards before I decide it is available for others to see or purchase. I don't rely of others to tell me this as "others" have a huge varying opinion of what's great from cell phone snaps to high end art work. At least my standard is just that...a standard.
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keithcooper

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2017, 07:47:14 pm »

... I don't rely of others to tell me this as "others" have a huge varying opinion ...
Indeed, exactly why I do listen to them...

I'm interested in what people do and don't notice in images - especially when it perhaps challenges my arbitrary preconceptions ;-)
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hogloff

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2017, 09:36:17 pm »

Indeed, exactly why I do listen to them...

I'm interested in what people do and don't notice in images - especially when it perhaps challenges my arbitrary preconceptions ;-)

Well, I guess we are different then. When I take a image...it is my vision I'm trying to capture. If when I get this image onto my computer and I feel I have failed to capture that vision...then I've failed. No one needs to tell me if I failed...only I know what I was trying to achieve. It really does not matter to me if some joe off the street is willing to pay money for a print of that image...I failed at what I was trying to capture...end of story.
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Geraldo Garcia

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Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2017, 09:40:35 pm »

Nice text Keith, thanks for sharing.

Besides being a photographer, I run a fine art printing studio and we print for others, small and big. We not only print, but act as consultants for our clients offering advice on pretty much everything: paper choice, size, image processing... everything related to the print.

Our clients are photographers, painters, digital artists, illustrators... pretty much every type of visual artist.

During the last decade we noticed a growing number of visual artists that use photography as their final product but do not call themselves photographers. Some work with ephemeral types of art and register their work on photos, while others simply enjoy using a camera to catch images that represent their "artistic vision". Most of them lack technical knowledge of photography and some even despise it. They tend to print way bigger than what would usually be advised and most of the time with excellent and striking results. It is all about the content and the composition, I only advise them to reduce the size when I know pixelation/jagged lines will occur.

Our clients who call themselves photographers, on the other hand, are usually interested on sharpness and resolution, sometimes more than on composition and mood.

I do believe the best possible scenario occurs when we have everything: composition, mood, technique, resolution and the right amount of sharpness. But I  would trade a sharp boring photo for a fuzzy exciting one any day.

Regards.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 09:56:00 pm by Geraldo Garcia »
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jaramd

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2017, 11:15:22 pm »

Great comments and thoughts.. for those of you that print large (i.e. say in the 40 x 50 inch or larger range), how do you present your work.. I have found that the option of taking it to a framing shop and having a large print matted and framed is both expensive (over $400) and heavy
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2017, 01:59:05 am »

I do believe the best possible scenario occurs when we have everything: composition, mood, technique, resolution and the right amount of sharpness. But I  would trade a sharp boring photo for a fuzzy exciting one any day.

I don't disagree with you, and value your experience. But I confess to finding much 'high art' to be shallow, pretentious, insular, and frightfully dull. I suppose many of those artists whose work does nothing for me might quickly find a hundred or more negative qualities in my own work, and not without basis. Such is life!
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nirpat89

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2017, 02:06:19 am »

But I  would trade a sharp boring photo for a fuzzy exciting one any day.

Regards.
Unfortunately more you become proficient in the technique, the more you tend to forget to put meaning into the photograph.  Ansel Adams said "there is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept." 
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keithcooper

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2017, 05:02:51 am »

I do believe the best possible scenario occurs when we have everything: composition, mood, technique, resolution and the right amount of sharpness. But I  would trade a sharp boring photo for a fuzzy exciting one any day.

Thanks - it's that balance I strive for in larger prints (well, any print I suppose...)

The 'sharp but boring' problem is perhaps one I most often come across when people discover panoramic photography - 'never mind the subject - look at all that detail' ;-)

In some ways the concentration on the technical side is all too often used as a way of avoiding looking at the actual images - far easier to worry about lens MTF, dots per inch, ink sets and dMax (and spend money 'improving' it) than if your images engage on an emotional level.

Making large prints has benefitted all my photography in different ways, even the less thrilling commercial stuff - which given it earns me a living is no bad thing...

I've found it fascinating to be near one of my very large prints, seeing and hearing people interact with it (not knowing who I am) - so many things I'd not even thought about or noticed :-)

Do I change my approach as a result? - Maybe, but probably not, but I also won't dismiss their opinions as in some way beneath me as 'the artist' ;-)
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donbga

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2017, 12:12:08 pm »


I do believe the best possible scenario occurs when we have everything: composition, mood, technique, resolution and the right amount of sharpness. But I  would trade a sharp boring photo for a fuzzy exciting one any day.


+1 to that.

On a local level I find the photographers whose who work I value and enjoy the most are driven by creative impulses supported by a high technical prowess with both of those attributes melding together to produce work with a singular visual voice. These individuals have a varied opinion of their work and of themselves. Some regard themselves as artists working exclusively with the photographic medium, some regard themselves as traditional photographers creating work with artistic intent (as contrasted to strictly representational imaging) and a very few visual graphic artists who produce work with electronic mediums and tools such as Photoshop and the like. In short these days there is a great variance of how 2D art can be driven from a photographic basis, but by and large I don't think the general public has a discriminating care about these divisions of work.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2017, 12:44:59 pm »

Great comments and thoughts.. for those of you that print large (i.e. say in the 40 x 50 inch or larger range), how do you present your work.. I have found that the option of taking it to a framing shop and having a large print matted and framed is both expensive (over $400) and heavy
Over the last several years there has been a growing trend to present work without any real "framing".  Thus the popularity of gallery wrapped canvas, or aluminum prints.

I'm fine with that , but personally I feel the presentation is part of the art.  I also feel that good framing ties the image to it's surrounding decor, and yet also "separates" it when viewed.  I think the two are complementary, and to me only when presented in an appropriate way do I consider it a "piece".  I have a couple of unique ways I finish my images, and i also offer traditional methods. Currently I offer no finished images that are not framed.

But I agree it is expensive.  I guess that's relative however depending on the price your work can obtain.  In my case I decided to do it all myself, so I print and prepare everything including acrylic facemounting or fine art paper mounted,  build all the frames and finish it off.  I may have others involved performing some of the labor, but it does allow me to make the margin of the frame shop as well.
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hogloff

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2017, 01:41:29 pm »


I do believe the best possible scenario occurs when we have everything: composition, mood, technique, resolution and the right amount of sharpness. But I  would trade a sharp boring photo for a fuzzy exciting one any day.

Regards.

Sure...but why do you have to trade off sharpness and fine detail for composition and emotion in the print? I hear this comment all the time but wonder why people need to make this tradeoff in today's photography world.
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donbga

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2017, 02:11:13 pm »

Sure...but why do you have to trade off sharpness and fine detail for composition and emotion in the print? I hear this comment all the time but wonder why people need to make this tradeoff in today's photography world.

It's not necessarily a deliberate trade off but why not if that supports one's artistic vision. A technically adequate photograph doesn't ensure an interesting and memorable photograph.
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enduser

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2017, 06:20:55 pm »

Looking at "the Photography Book" from Phaidon Press and the highly regarded photos within it reminds me that it just isn't possible to say generally what makes a great photograph. Whatever criteria are used, there will be a photograph of merit somewhere that doesn't meet them.
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hogloff

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2017, 06:58:01 pm »

It's not necessarily a deliberate trade off but why not if that supports one's artistic vision. A technically adequate photograph doesn't ensure an interesting and memorable photograph.

And the opposite is true as well. A technically adequate photo does not ensure it's not interesting and memorable. From my perspective, a great photo has both great technical qualities so it can be printed large if need be AND it also contains emotion that tugs at the viewer.

Again...why can't an emotional photo also be technically great? Especially with today's equipment.
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Moving to BIG prints...
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2017, 08:03:45 pm »

Again...why can't an emotional photo also be technically great? Especially with today's equipment.

Because that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. A photo with intrinsically excellent artistic qualities could be outstanding technically, but sometimes it's not. If the said photo is good enough artistically it may not really matter that much that it has technical flaws.

If a photo that is technically perfect is boring then who cares that it's technically perfect?

However, I think we all agree that it's best if a photo is technically and artistically top-notch.

I have a photo of Theodore M. Hesburgh and a professor of mine that I like very much. Artistically it's good enough, and Fr. Hesburgh was a remarkable American, which gives extra meaning to it. However the photo was taken with a mediocre digital camera and my technical skills when I took it back in 2005 weren't too hot either. But it's still one of my favorites.
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