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Author Topic: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?  (Read 10524 times)

Lust4Life

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Re: Now that you are shooting with an A7RII, this may be interesting…
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2017, 08:38:06 AM »

Hi Jack,

Two things to keep in mind with the Sony:

- Any multiple exposure mode sets it 12 bit mode.
- Lot of other modes also set it in 12 bit mode.

You may also prefer to use it in uncompressed raw mode.

Best regards
Erik

That is concerning!
I always shoot RAW uncompressed, but flipping to 12 bit?  No way.
So, I need to find a list of how to prevent that from happening.

Unless doing street photography, I always shoot in Manual and use my Sekonic to define my
exposure.

I do like HDR for high contrast scenes and prefer a camera that will automatically run that
for me BUT I can do it manually IF that is how to keep it from flipping to 12 bit.

I need to learn more about this issue - thanks for letting me know Erik!
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Jack
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Now that you are shooting with an A7RII, this may be interesting…
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2017, 12:10:02 PM »

Hi,

I have found this description in "the Friedman book":

"It should be noted that there’s no menu item to turn this feature on or off -- the A7r II goes into 14-bit mode automatically when you’re shooting RAW in single-shot mode and goes back to 12-bit in any other drive mode, or when shutter speed is set to BULB, or Long Exposure Noise Reduction is employed."

It also works in 12-bit mode with silent shutter. EFCS is 14 bits.

Check this: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1379163 and this: http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a7ii-12-bit-modes-effect-on-shadows/

I would recommend using RawDigger to learn more about what the camera puts in the raw files: https://www.rawdigger.com

Best regards
Erik


That is concerning!
I always shoot RAW uncompressed, but flipping to 12 bit?  No way.
So, I need to find a list of how to prevent that from happening.

Unless doing street photography, I always shoot in Manual and use my Sekonic to define my
exposure.

I do like HDR for high contrast scenes and prefer a camera that will automatically run that
for me BUT I can do it manually IF that is how to keep it from flipping to 12 bit.

I need to learn more about this issue - thanks for letting me know Erik!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 03:21:41 PM by ErikKaffehr »
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Lust4Life

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2017, 12:18:45 PM »

WOW!  I wonder just how few photographers are even aware of this!

As always Erik, Thanks for your help!

I will study what you sent this afternoon after returning with a few more shots to test review, unfortunately shot wide open with the Nikkor 19, but that's better than nothing!

Jack
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Jack
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2017, 03:41:49 PM »

Hi Jack,

Here is a bunch of 24/3.5 TSE LII shots on the A7rII: https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Technical/Canon-24-TSE-LII/

And here is a bunch shot with 16-35/4 mounted on the HCam Master TSII: https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Technical/16-354l-and-Master-TS/

That day I decided to use the A7rII with 16-35/4 on the HCam Master TS. That means fixed aperture, probably f/11. I was still shooting other pictures with my backup camera. The way to stop down the Canon lenses is to set aperture and shoot with lenscap on. Than remove the lens during exposure, so it stays stopped down.

To keep things simple, I mostly use the 24/3.5 for shift work and use a Contax zoom with manual aperture for tilts.

Using an MF zoom with manual aperture on the HCam may be an interesting option.

Regarding the HCam Master TSII, this page gives some info: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/57632-few-lenses-i-can-put-sony-a7rii.html

Mechanically +/- 15 mm shift and 10 degree tilt. Lens rotates 360 degrees. With movements, lens is fixed and camera moves. Movements have no gears. Peaking is very useful to find focus plane. Downside is that there is no control for aperture.

Best regards
Erik




WOW!  I wonder just how few photographers are even aware of this!

As always Erik, Thanks for your help!

I will study what you sent this afternoon after returning with a few more shots to test review, unfortunately shot wide open with the Nikkor 19, but that's better than nothing!

Jack

OwenR

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2017, 12:10:38 AM »

I use the HCam Master TS too and find the 24 TS to be far sharper than the 16-35/4 with large shifts, but otherwise the zoom is exceptional. 5mm is often enough for regular interiors for me and it's great in this range, so makes an ideal lens for hotel rooms (tethered, using lens correction for distortion). I still use the HCam adapter with the 17/24 TS's as it extends shift range further. It's not so sharp at the extended extremes but if this is sky then it really doesn't matter, so is a great addition for large scale architecture. To change aperture, I use a second Sony camera with metabones adapter, but in practice rarely change it from f11. Being able to shift the camera instead of the lens also helps with stitching. In short, the HCam adaptor is a superb addition to an A7RII used for architecture.

Incidentally, I wonder how the 16-35/4 will fare on the new GFX, it looks as though it could function well in the 20-35 range. Has anyone tried it on a MFDB?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2017, 01:23:08 AM »

Hi,

An interesting side of of the HCam is that it allows something like +/- 12 mm shift with MFD lenses. The lens is fixed and the camera body is moved so it is absolutely parallax free. So you can combine three 24x36 mm shots into a 48x36 mm shot that has around 80 MP on the A7rII.

I had three different adapters for MFD on the HCam Master II

  • A Photodiox adapter that was essentially useless because of internal reflections.
  • A Novoflex adapter for Hasselblad lenses that worked great.
  • A Kipon adapter for Pentax 67 that is well made but also has problems with internal reflections.

Since that time I got myself some zooms with manual aperture for tilt work, Contax 28-85/3.3-4 and 35-135/3.3-4.5. So, the MFD lenses and adapters just collect dust. The 24/3.5 TSE LII is what I mostly use for architecture, with the 16-35/4 zoom added in when needed.

Best regards
Erik

I use the HCam Master TS too and find the 24 TS to be far sharper than the 16-35/4 with large shifts, but otherwise the zoom is exceptional. 5mm is often enough for regular interiors for me and it's great in this range, so makes an ideal lens for hotel rooms (tethered, using lens correction for distortion). I still use the HCam adapter with the 17/24 TS's as it extends shift range further. It's not so sharp at the extended extremes but if this is sky then it really doesn't matter, so is a great addition for large scale architecture. To change aperture, I use a second Sony camera with metabones adapter, but in practice rarely change it from f11. Being able to shift the camera instead of the lens also helps with stitching. In short, the HCam adaptor is a superb addition to an A7RII used for architecture.

Incidentally, I wonder how the 16-35/4 will fare on the new GFX, it looks as though it could function well in the 20-35 range. Has anyone tried it on a MFDB?

Boykinally

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2017, 03:27:13 AM »

 I'm considering the new dual shift version of the H cam, has anyone  experienced internal reflection flare like with Fotodiox or older Metabones adapters?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2017, 03:56:34 AM »

Hi,

I have not observed flare on the HCam Master TSII when used with the Novoflex V-mount adapter. I have seen flare with the Hasselblad Distagon 40/4 using a Photodiox adapter and with the Pentax 67 45/4 using the Kipon P67 to Canon mount adapter. Using the back end of the Novoflex with the fron end of the Kipon mostly eliminated that problem.

So, I would go with Novoflex adapters.

Best  regards
Erik


I'm considering the new dual shift version of the H cam, has anyone  experienced internal reflection flare like with Fotodiox or older Metabones adapters?

Boykinally

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2017, 06:19:50 AM »

Eric,
I would be attaching Canon lenses directly to the H cam and the H cam attached to a A7rII.  I'm not talking about lens flare from a hard light hitting the lens  but internal reflections from the lens with a large image circle when light bounces around inside of the H cam adapter,  has anyone seen flare of this kind from this set up like I did initially with adapters on the A7rII before they were flocked?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2017, 06:27:43 AM »

Hi,

I have a non flocked HCam Master TSII and I have not seen issues with my Canon lenses.

Best regards
Erik


Eric,
I would be attaching Canon lenses directly to the H cam and the H cam attached to a A7rII.  I'm not talking about lens flare from a hard light hitting the lens  but internal reflections from the lens with a large image circle when light bounces around inside of the H cam adapter,  has anyone seen flare of this kind from this set up like I did initially with adapters on the A7rII before they were flocked?

Boykinally

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2017, 06:40:15 AM »

 Do you shoot with the 17 and 24 TSE? Is the TS II the one with duel shifts?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2017, 01:40:50 PM »

Hi,

My experience i with the 24/3.5 TSE LII. But I seldom use that lens on the HCam Master TSII.

The HCam Master TSII is not the one with dual shifts. It allows +15/-15 mm shift in one direction and +10 degree tilt in the orthogonal direction.

Usable shift is mostly more like +12/-12 mm and it is limited by internal baffles mostly.

The dual shift camera is called HDS.

It is presented here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/59669-hcam-dual-shift-hds-new-photokina-2016-a.html

Best regards
Erik

Do you shoot with the 17 and 24 TSE? Is the TS II the one with duel shifts?

dchew

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2017, 03:46:49 PM »

Jack,
The other thing to look out for with the a7rII is the EFC mode has a shutter speed limit on the high end somewhere around 1/1200 of a second. I can't remember exactly where. Here is an image @ 1/2500.

Dave



WOW!  I wonder just how few photographers are even aware of this!

As always Erik, Thanks for your help!

I will study what you sent this afternoon after returning with a few more shots to test review, unfortunately shot wide open with the Nikkor 19, but that's better than nothing!

Jack
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Lust4Life

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2017, 07:43:50 PM »

Thanks Dave, and a beautiful desolate scene!
Today I ordered a book from Amazon on the 7Rii - will be here Thursday afternoon so it will become this weekends mission to study it.

Jack
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2017, 09:06:26 AM »

Dave,

Thanks for the info! I have not observed the issue myself, but I seldom shoot fast exposure times. I did some tests once, but not seen the issue.

The Fuji GFX goes from ECFS to FP at 1/1250s. Those guys know what they are doing… :-)

Best regards
Erik

Jack,
The other thing to look out for with the a7rII is the EFC mode has a shutter speed limit on the high end somewhere around 1/1200 of a second. I can't remember exactly where. Here is an image @ 1/2500.

Dave

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Re: Now that you are shooting with an A7RII, this may be interesting…
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2017, 10:11:10 AM »

Hi,

I have found this description in "the Friedman book":

"It should be noted that there’s no menu item to turn this feature on or off -- the A7r II goes into 14-bit mode automatically when you’re shooting RAW in single-shot mode and goes back to 12-bit in any other drive mode, or when shutter speed is set to BULB, or Long Exposure Noise Reduction is employed."

It also works in 12-bit mode with silent shutter. EFCS is 14 bits.

Check this: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1379163 and this: http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a7ii-12-bit-modes-effect-on-shadows/

I would recommend using RawDigger to learn more about what the camera puts in the raw files: https://www.rawdigger.com

Best regards
Erik

Okay, IMHO another reason I should avoid this camera. 
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drewharty

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2017, 10:25:40 AM »

Hello Jack,

I have used the Arca Swiss 6x9 with orbix and the Actus. For the price, the Arca 6x9 can't be beat. It has tremendous versatility in terms of movements, accessories, portability, and cost of lens and accessories. You must have the orbix geared tilt, though, to make it work well with  digital backs, otherwise it is too imprecise to focus when tilting the front lens.

I thought the Actus was a very nicely made camera, and I had no worries about attaching a digital back and larger lens. I did find it more fussy than the Arca though. I am also not someone who finds geared rise and/or shift on a back to be a real advantage--it feels great to use but doesn't give me any more capabilities. The problem I had with the Actus, and the reason I sold it, is that there is something off with the front tilt. When you set the foreground focus then tilt the lens for the distant focus, the foreground goes out of focus again, and it is worse with wider lens. This doesn't happen on the Arca. And, although the Actus front and rear standards are smaller, the Arca packs into a smaller, self-contained package with the bellows, a lens, and digital back attached.

I have use a 45mm and longer lens extensively but don't have much experience using a 35mm or 28mm on either of these camera. I don't know if a technical camera offers an advantage in this respect.

I have used an Aptus 65, Aptus 56, and now a Credo 50 on my Arca 6x9. I would highly recommend a live view back. They do eat batteries, but, for me, there is no substitute for confirming focus at 100%. I also find it a tremendous advantage composing an image on a live view back as opposed to on a ground glass. (I used the Bill Maxwell screens for years.) It only takes a couple finger strokes to go in and out of live view, and I like keeping the back attached to the camera at all times to cut down on dust accumulation and lower the risk of damage.

Drew Harty

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« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 10:33:22 AM by drewharty »
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Lust4Life

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Re: Now that you are shooting with an A7RII, this may be interesting…
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2017, 07:32:31 AM »

Okay, IMHO another reason I should avoid this camera.

I agreed with your comment, initially.
Then talked to my close buddy that has been shooting it since it came out, and pestering me to at least look at it (He just sold another single print for $30K, he's good!) and he said that as long as you keep it in 14 bit, it's great.

I also talked with a collection of realtors, and one's that work closely with Architects, and was given consistent advice to be sensitive to the need in this market of staying price competitive!  Hmmm, that was so dominant in their comments that I have to give it some weight in my decision.  Dang, I love the fancy tools of the trade, but I do need to start somewhere so I'll consider the Sony a7RII.  The market here is dramatically different from where I lived previously, Naples, FL.

So, I decided to put aside my prejudice that loves MFD this past week and I bought in to test the following:
Alpha a7R II Mirrorless Digital Camera (Body Only)
Sonnar T* FE 35mm f/2.8 ZA Lens
Sonnar T* FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Lens
FE 85mm f/1.4 GM Lens
Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Tilt-Shift Lens with Metabones adapter

Late yesterday I had read enough of Busch's good book on the camera to be dangerous and thought I'd run my first test, the Canon TS.

Result, I have been foolish to not have looked at this camera a long time ago!  Hate it when I do that, and this is not the first time in my life!
 
From the first lens tested, NO, it's not the H5D 50c WiFi with my 28mm lens, but it's still great and at a fraction of the cost!
The Sony and the Canon 17 are keepers.  (I had also brought in the Nikkor 19 BUT a lot of research has shown there is not an adapter available yet for it that works cleanly.)

Today we will have 70 degree plus weather with mild wind here in Chapel Hill, NC. 
I'll be testing the balance of the lenses.

Thought on the 14/12 bit issue - I'll avoid the settings that drop the camera into 12 bit. It's just that simple for my style of shooting.
Heck, I have only shot in Manual mode for decades with my trusty Sekonic defining my exposure - love that tool!

Yes, I'll be adding lenses focused on the Arch. interest I have!
Will define that over the next two weeks, and ask for suggestions here as well.

The 35mm I have, IF it tests well, great little light lens for the moments I want to do street photography, which are not many but fun when that feeling to get out around fellow Mortals strikes!

The 55 - again will see how it tests.  It's light, decent size and there may be times it fills a niche in a scene of me.  I can also use it in my Landscape work where I love to take a scene that would fit into the Canon 17 and chop the scene up with 3 to 5 exposures from a longer lens, then stitch them together and get exceptional resolution! 

The 85 -  Ditto comment above on the 55, but will have to define if the 100mm will be substantially better for the few portraits I enjoy doing.
     Anyone test out the 85 verse the 100?

So folks, the H5D will be sold - I also cancelled my X1D order.

The Sony is my new standard - I have a lot to learn and there will be moments that a certain feature of it will piss me off BUT, it's like any relationship, one must compromise or frustrate the Hell out of yourself!

Can add the tech later as income justifies bringing in the tech camera as a good compliment.

Seeking suggestions for lenses you have found outstanding with the Sony in architectural and residential work.  I'll review all of the post to recall what has already been suggested.

Yes, I know, I crossed over to the "Dark Side" and IF you can't say something nice, then say it to someone else as I have enough on my plate to deal with right now.

Jack
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 07:42:18 AM by Lust4Life »
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Lust4Life

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2017, 09:03:59 AM »

Jack,

I'd say you need a Canon 24mm TS-E mk2. You will also need lenses or techniques to correct verticals at longer focal lengths.

If your plan is to pursue architectural photography professionally you will need a 2nd body. A battery grip is a good idea; the non Sony brand ones that come with a remote release are cheap and in my experience of using one for over a year, reliable.

I recommend that rather than digging deep into the Sony's menu, as you say, leave it on manual and spend your time mastering shooting interiors with the 17mm.


Paul

Thanks Paul for your comments.
I agree with the 24mm TS-E, MK 2 and have it on my list to add this week, probably order it on Sunday when B&H opens up.
My friend that has all 4 of the TS-E's states the 17 and 24 are substantially sharper than the other two.

Also agree with the 2nd body but I'll try to hold off till Sony comes out with their next upgrade OR revenue comes in. 
All revenue will initially be rolled back into gear to enhance the work.

You state:  "You will also need lenses or techniques to correct verticals at longer focal lengths."
What do you recommend as tilted verticals in a shot really bug me when I see them in others work.

Jack

PS:  I do feel the 14bit drop to less than 14 is concerning.  Over the week I hope to finish a search for any posts that discuss this, extract from them what settings trip this attribute and post it in a single doc for others to add to over time.  We should all using the Sony push to get a toggle to universal defeat for any bit reducing.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:13:39 AM by Lust4Life »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Architecture - Ideal high end set up with gear available 2017?
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2017, 10:27:13 AM »

Hi Jack,

I have somewhat mixed experience with the 24/3.5 TSE LII. On pixel peeping it is not so great at all. But, I find it does a decent job.

I don't really shoot architecture, but I love shooting old churches. For that the 24/3.5 TSE LII I have works very well. I may have a less than optimal sample or it could be that field curvature is a bit tricky. Just be aware, it may work great or not at all. Personally, I stop it down to f/11 - f/13 and I mostly feel quite happy.

That said, I have done a lot of shooting with the 24/3.5 TSE LII and been happy. In a way, I would possibly feel happier with the 11-24/4. It is less money than the 24/35 TSE and the 16-35/4L. 2017 is more of a landscape season for me, so I am quite happy with what I have right now, 10/3.5 Sigma fisheye (APS-C), Sigma 12-24 full frame, Canon 16-35/4L, Canon 24-105/4L, Contax 28-85/3.3-4, Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5, Sony 90/2.8G and Sony 70-400/4-5.6G.

The weakest link I have is the long end. I would consider looking at some alternatives.

I would add that I don't feel Sony lenses are worth the price. Canon/Sigma lenses may be better alternatives. Canon and Sigma can dilute RND costs over a larger number of deliveries, of course.

It seems that some Leica APO-s work very well with Sony cameras. That is an approach worth a look.

For me, it is about travel. I can take the 70-400/4-5,6G APO. It is not the ultimate lens. But it may be good enough.  So I m looking for alternatives.

 Best regards
Erik

Thanks Paul for your comments.
I agree with the 24mm TS-E, MK 2 and have it on my list to add this week, probably order it on Sunday when B&H opens up.
My friend that has all 4 of the TS-E's states the 17 and 24 are substantially sharper than the other two.

Also agree with the 2nd body but I'll try to hold off till Sony comes out with their next upgrade OR revenue comes in. 
All revenue will initially be rolled back into gear to enhance the work.

You state:  "You will also need lenses or techniques to correct verticals at longer focal lengths."
What do you recommend as tilted verticals in a shot really bug me when I see them in others work.

Jack

PS:  I do feel the 14bit drop to less than 14 is concerning.  Over the week I hope to finish a search for any posts that discuss this, extract from them what settings trip this attribute and post it in a single doc for others to add to over time.  We should all using the Sony push to get a toggle to universal defeat for any bit reducing.
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