Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D

[john beardsworth]

As the OP, what Bart said is correct. I have to choose either the X1D or the GFX without being able to have both cameras side-by-side, which would mean paying for both of them, even for a time. I can't afford that. So, of course, with that kind of investment on the line, I would like to determine if the two cameras are roughly equivalent. Perhaps others will do this and I can learn from them.

They say patience is a virtue, you know. So why not be patient and rent them side-by-side?

[Michael Erlewine]

They say patience is a virtue, you know. So why not be patient and rent them side-by-side?

LOL. In Big Rapids, Michigan, where I live, we are on the edge of 900,000 acres of national forest. No place to rent them here, AND I have orders in for both cameras, and the X1D should be along fairly soon, since I ordered fairly early. Obviously, I am not being clear enough, but patience I have already had pleanty of.

[hubell]

As the OP, what Bart said is correct. I have to choose either the X1D or the GFX without being able to have both cameras side-by-side, which would mean paying for both of them, even for a time. I can't afford that. So, of course, with that kind of investment on the line, I would like to determine if the two cameras are roughly equivalent. Perhaps others will do this and I can learn from them.

I think you can do this exercise without having both cameras side by side at the same time. That would be ideal, but not necessary in my view to do the evaluation. My expectation is that the two cameras will NOT be roughly equivalent if you compare the files from the GFX in LR/ACR using the supplied profiles versus the files from the X1D in Phocus using the supplied profiles. Can YOU develop a LR profile for the GFX that gets you close to what you like? Can pay someone else to figure out what you like and develop an excellent LR profile for you that matches your aesthetic tastes? I don't know, but do you want to buy an expensive camera system based upon that supposition?

[Michael Erlewine]

I think you can do this exercise without having both cameras side by side at the same time. That would be ideal, but not necessary in my view to do the evaluation. My expectation is that the two cameras will NOT be roughly equivalent if you compare the files from the GFX in LR/ACR using the supplied profiles versus the files from the X1D in Phocus using the supplied profiles. Can YOU develop a LR profile for the GFX that gets you close to what you like? Can pay someone else to figure out what you like and develop an excellent LR profile for you that matches your aesthetic tastes? I don't know, but do you want to buy an expensive camera system based upon that supposition?

Obviously, the more I write, the less clear I become. It must be one of Murphy's Laws. I will make do. As it looks now, I should receive the X1D first (which I ordered last July). If I can stand to give it up, I will cancel my order for the GFX. Otherwise, I will return it and wait for the GFX. Between now and then, perhaps someone with more knowledge than me (and access to both cameras) will figure out whether the GFX and the proper profile can more-or-less emulate the Hasselblad "look." If it can, I will probably go for the GFX, because its capability is more what appeals to me. However, this is a part of me that wants a smaller, simpler system, that is a delight. So far, I am not delighted with what Hasselblad has offered me, which is delay and no satisfying explanation. I know that there are other approaches.

[eronald]

They say patience is a virtue, you know. So why not be patient and rent them side-by-side?

I think Fuji and Hassy have both earned an excellent rep for very very good color when their native converters are employed; the same goes for Phase with C1. When ACR or Lightroom enter the equation, things tend to get turned into mush, however convenient the workflow - Adobe makes one-size-fits-all software.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The pictures often presented as samples are often taken by some famous photographer, shooting a famous model with excessive makeup and complex illumination.

Those images doesn't make it easy to judge colour rendition. What you probably need is a well illuminated test subject with pretty standard studio light, a model without a lot of makeup and a colour checker or a grey card.

Light modifiers can easily change light a few hundred Kelvins, so you need that colour checker for white balance.

Best regards
Erik

[Michael Erlewine]

Hi,

The pictures often presented as samples are often taken by some famous photographer, shooting a famous model with excessive makeup and complex illumination.

Those images doesn't make it easy to judge colour rendition. What you probably need is a well illuminated test subject with pretty standard studio light, a model without a lot of makeup and a colour checker or a grey card.

Light modifiers can easily change light a few hundred Kelvins, so you need that colour checker for white balance.

Best regards
Erik

I wholeheartedly agree with Erik, but this is not our first rodeo, either. I have gone through this kind of bleeding-edge stage many, many times before. Therefore, I know that somehow we will get though this, gather enough data until we have what we feel we need, and make our decisions on purchase or not. And it is clear, this is not one simple conclusions, but many types of photographers, each with their list to be checked off.

[hubell]

I wholeheartedly agree with Erik, but this is not our first rodeo, either. I have gone through this kind of bleeding-edge stage many, many times before. Therefore, I know that somehow we will get though this, gather enough data until we have what we feel we need, and make our decisions on purchase or not. And it is clear, this is not one simple conclusions, but many types of photographers, each with their list to be checked off.

Agreed, but it would certainly help developing some degree of confidence about the ability to develop a more natural rendition of color and tone with the GFX if Fuji did not market the camera with such garish imagery: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/fujifilm_gfx_50s/pdf/index/gfx_catalogue_01.pdf
If that's what the camera was configured to produce, no thanks. that's not my idea of beautiful tone and color.

[Michael Erlewine]

Agreed, but it would certainly help developing some degree of confidence about the ability to develop a more natural rendition of color and tone with the GFX if Fuji did not market the camera with such garish imagery: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/fujifilm_gfx_50s/pdf/index/gfx_catalogue_01.pdf
If that's what the camera was configured to produce, no thanks. that's not my idea of beautiful tone and color.

As we say around here: "Amen Brother!" My thoughts exactly, which is what prompted this post. Otherwise, I will just be happy with the X1D.

[Paul2660]

Boy tough crowd. Images look fine to me. But I always liked he look of Provia and Cibachrome.

Paul Caldwell

[calindustries]

LOL. In Big Rapids, Michigan, where I live, we are on the edge of 900,000 acres of national forest. No place to rent them here, AND I have orders in for both cameras, and the X1D should be along fairly soon, since I ordered fairly early. Obviously, I am not being clear enough, but patience I have already had pleanty of.

You could try to arrange a demo from a dealer who sells both (Fotocare here in NYC).  When making a bigger purchase a lot of places may do that. In the least you could rent it (other places are built around shipping rentals lensrental.com etc.) I know places that do both sales and rental will let you apply part of your rental to purchase as well. I see where you are and as a native Yooper I can understand how you may feel isolated from the bigger markets, but it's not impossible these days.

[camgarner]

I agree with Paul - tough crowd!  I completely get the desire for such accuracy when doing commercial portrait and product photography.  As a photographer who does mostly landscapes and seascapes I don't require that level accuracy.  My experience shooting Canon and Leica, then Nikon and now Phase One, I always have to adjust the color to my liking.  Part of it is I tend to like slightly under-saturated colors and I am often going for a specific look.  I forgot who said it earlier but we all perceive color slightly differently.  I would guess some of that is biological and some of it based on our visual experience.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure either Fuji or Hasselblad with profiles will be fine.  I would be focusing my energy on other factors.  One mans opinion.

[Paul2660]

I agree with Paul - tough crowd!  I completely get the desire for such accuracy when doing commercial portrait and product photography.  As a photographer who does mostly landscapes and seascapes I don't require that level accuracy.  My experience shooting Canon and Leica, then Nikon and now Phase One, I always have to adjust the color to my liking.  Part of it is I tend to like slightly under-saturated colors and I am often going for a specific look.  I forgot who said it earlier but we all perceive color slightly differently.  I would guess some of that is biological and some of it based on our visual experience.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure either Fuji or Hasselblad with profiles will be fine.  I would be focusing my energy on other factors.  One mans opinion.

Better said than by me but I agree 100%  Phase One color out of the camera is most terrible unless I am shooting on bright day.  Tons of time go into getting the image where I want it, and I often shoot a reference with my X-T2 as color out of that camera is much more accurate.  Phase One WB is a mystery I have yet to figure out since 2008.  I had hoped that with the CMOS tech P1 would make it easier, but IMO it's just as tough as CCD. 

Paul Caldwell

[Iliah]

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[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Paul,

I think that the WB in camera is a kind of secret sauce. I would imagine that camera makers invest a lot of R&D in that area. At least for some time, Nikon has encrypted that information in their files.

My experience is just with the P45+, but I have found auto WB extremely unreliable. But, I happened to set daylight as default for my P45+ in Lightroom and suddenly started to get good results. I would think the problem is that colour temperature is often a part of the light. If you shoot a sunset the light may be 2300 K, but you would probably have a pretty high Kelvin setting so the magic colours are retained. A good WB algorithm must recognise sunset and adjust WB accordingly.

Here is an interesting case, it is a P45+ shot, balanced on a grey card not shown in the image. The inset colours are samples take from the subject and measured with a spectrometer. Capture One on to and LR CC 2015 at bottom.


Now, it has been suggested that I would use Capture One with the following settings:

• ICC Profile Phase One P45+ Flash - Easy Grey
• Film standard
• White balance Flash

Now, that gave nice purples on the flowers but yellowish blades. Also it is a bit counterintuitive that you wouldn't white balance on a grey card you have in your picture.

Lightroom reproduces those colours easily.

Best regards
Erik

Better said than by me but I agree 100%  Phase One color out of the camera is most terrible unless I am shooting on bright day.  Tons of time go into getting the image where I want it, and I often shoot a reference with my X-T2 as color out of that camera is much more accurate.  Phase One WB is a mystery I have yet to figure out since 2008.  I had hoped that with the CMOS tech P1 would make it easier, but IMO it's just as tough as CCD. 

Paul Caldwell

[armand]

That blue-magenta is what I had issues with in the Fuji files (granted it is xtrans not bayer like the GX).
On X-T1 I couldn't find a program that converts them properly (the jpeg was quite good) until the last version of profiles for LR. With those it's very close, at least Provia. Now with X-T2 they seem to have gone backwards.

[pflower]

I am a bit perplexed by the film simulation modes available.  Presumably these are only relevant for jpegs and are not "burnt" into the Raw files in camera.  Who is really going to buy this camera to shoot jpegs?  Presumably the only purpose is to produce a jpeg with a certain look that you can use as a reference to develop the Raw file or am i missing something?  Or is it intended that the film simulation modes will be made available within LR or other developers to act upon a neutral Raw file?  Or, as I have already said, am I missing something obvious?

[Paul2660]

Film simulation in camera only applies to jpgs for the X series.  The GFX allows for the taking of a tif not raw, so you may be able to apply them in camera to a tif.  Raw files the simulations do not apply to. 

A lot of Fuji shooters will go straight to jpg as they like the film simulations, especially the Arcos. 

LR offers their attempt at matching them so you can apply them to a raw file during the conversion. 

Paul Caldwell

[Stephen Scharf]

LOL. In Big Rapids, Michigan, where I live, we are on the edge of 900,000 acres of national forest. No place to rent them here, AND I have orders in for both cameras, and the X1D should be along fairly soon, since I ordered fairly early. Obviously, I am not being clear enough, but patience I have already had pleanty of.

You can rent both cameras when available from LensRentals.com or BorrowLenses.com and do an comprehensive side by side comparison for yourself. Both companies will ship the camera to your home and make shipping back straightforward and easy. Problem solved.

[eronald]

You know what the A7RII, the Hassies, the Fuji and the Pentax all have in common?

SONY COLOR.

Sure, you can process itbdifferently but it's the same Bayer CFA, as far as anyone can tell.
Just as in the old days when it was all Kodak until Fuji, Ciba and friends came along.

Edmund

You can rent both cameras when available from LensRentals.com or BorrowLenses.com and do an comprehensive side by side comparison for yourself. Both companies will ship the camera to your home and make shipping back straightforward and easy. Problem solved.