Advice on a Fotoman 624 camera/accessories & comparison with digital panoramas !

[kers]

.... for instance, I often try to make a pano with a 200mm focal length to be able to completely do justice to the grand scale of the landscape. I normally don't like wide angle panos and think that normal single exposures are enough for that purpose. In this situation, it's really difficult to keep track of all the individual shots you capture and all the detail in each and every little area of the scene. Often, there are missed details in some critical parts of the scene and using clone-stamp or the content-aware-fill don't serve the purpose. I need to figure out a way to avoid these missed details....

Well i make panorama's with 300mm... no problem...however...
If you say you miss details... I think you need a electronic first curtain (EFC) and VR on you lens... + focus calibration
let me see the d700 had already Liveview? EFC is very needed to avoid unsharp images with tele lenses..

The pano head is not so critical if you use a telelens and a subject so far away... but you need a tripod. So you can choose a cheap panohead as long as it is stable for your camera + lens combination...
so then it will be a sturdy... more expensive one again...
then a remote control... essential with a telelens.
I am using a d810 nikon and love it... my 300mm is the also beloved 300pf F4 lens.
"missed detail...."
Then at such distances and a telelens you may have problems with the large volume of air in between you and the subject making your photos less sharp...
cheers

PK


( PS the Fotoman 624 camera looks very nice i must admit, but the format is very horizontal... would you always want that?)

[Craig Magee]

Craig, I have played extensively with pano stitching and HDR panorama stitching for years and can relate to all that you said. After all these responses I am seriously considering an indexed panorama support system and will start to research the best available models now.

Regarding the desired focal length, I almost always choose a long FL for my landscape panoramas like in the range of 100mm-200mm to fully do justice to the grandeur of the scene at hand, plus for a horizontal panorama I shoot with portrait orientation to avoid that skinny horizontal strip and this portrait oriented shooting is exactly what makes the process very difficult and you need to shoot hundreds of individual exposures. Do you also shoot in portrait orientation ?

Yeah I always have the camera in portrait. All of the manual multirow indexed heads work that way. Like I say I usually do single rows so its a bit easier to visualise. But its easy enough to work it out quickly with multiple rows.

Shooting lots of files at 100mm-200mm maybe look at the gigapan to automate the shooting. I'd imagine they have options to save multirow layouts so you dont have to remeber indent settings all the time.

Perhaps also take a look at the Seitz Roundshot. I've seen their Vrdrive system in action and its brilliant. But they also make a couple of solutions which are effectlivley DIGITAL medium format panoramic cameras. Not going to be cheap though.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

... the main problem is that of capturing individual shots with much longer focal lengths, for instance, I often try to make a pano with a 200mm focal length to be able to completely do justice to the grand scale of the landscape.

For longer focal length shots you'll need a sturdy support, because you'll be handling and repositioning the camera a lot but do not want to wait too long for vibrations to dampen between shots. Also, the indexing head will need to offer relatively small angle increments, not something that most can do. For a 200mm lens on a 35x24mm full frame sensor, you'll barely get by with a 5-degree interval in portrait orientation, a bit easier when shooting in landscape orientation. A 300mm (or longer) lens would preferably need something that offers less than 5-degree intervals.

AFAIK, the Nodal Ninja Advanced Rotator RD8-II is suited for smaller increments but is expensive, and I'm not sure if it needs to be used with their own M2 system. In general, the Nodal Ninja gear seems a bit too lightweight to me for heavy lenses.

A lot of people say that the Nodal Ninja system is better than the RRS solution.

It depends on specific requirements, but I'm sceptical. NN offers a more closed system than RRS. The RRS gear is an investment in a flexible system that can be expanded for different uses.

I upgraded to a heavier duty version of the RRS stuff for lenses of 135mm focal length and longer (I could see vibration in the 135mm shots). Do note that the optical design (position of the entrance pupil) may result in a rather poor on tripod balance if a No-Parallax setup is required (e.g. when there is foreground detail and distant background detail).

I believe this is an expense of at least in the range of $1000 or so, right ?

It depends on how flexible or how dedicated (inflexible) your setup will need to be. Do you only shoot long lens panos of distant scenes without foreground detail, then you may be able to skip a few components. If you need to shoot fast, because of fast changing lighting/clouds, then you need more gear.

Cheers,
Bart
 
[/quote]

[warpdrive]

Hello again folks,

So, I happened to land on something that I thought would be worth sharing and asking here. During my on-going research on the subject, I came across this kickstarter campaign from Hong Kong.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wingsiu/617-film-diy-camera-challenges-80megapixels-equiva/description

This guy has made a concept DIY 617 film camera using simple materials and the sample images look acceptable enough, other than of course the vignetting on the wide lens images. I have tried to interact with this guy on facebook and from what I understood from the communication is that the lens boards will be made according to copal # and flange focal distance and for focusing, a see-through paper is said to be included which will serve as a makeshift ground glass (I am not very sure of this myself). There will also be a focus adjustment set used to change the distance of the lens from the film. The cost of everything seems reasonable and he is willing to make me a similar 624 as well for not much more than the 617. But before making a decision and jumping onto this, I thought I would ask the experts and pros here to kindly take some time and have a look at the page and advise me what I should or shouldn't do or avoid to get everything right in this case.

I have questions such as if there's no viewfinder, how is one supposed to see and compose a scene ? Can a viewfinder from a company like Fotoman be used with this camera for a specific lens ? Fotoman gave a quote earlier for the viewfinder for $150.

Focusing too has got me confused and I am afraid I couldn't fully understand how it works so I want to learn more. If you can't see through the lens, how are you supposed to focus on the scene ? In your opinion, can the Fotoman Helical Focuser (very expensive around $320) and ground glass ($100) be used on this camera ? Fotoman also has a rangefinder ($180), how can that help on this camera (if it can) ?

How long a lens can be used on a 624 version of this camera (300mm/400mm) ? The guy said any large format lens with big enough image circle for 624 would work as long as the flange distance is correctly adjusted during assemble. Any pointers to check ?

Any other suggestions/advice/details that I am missing ?

Thanks.

[Joe Towner]

What is your end goal Warpdrive?  Are you looking to sell the work you create with the 624 or is it for personal work?  If your end goal is to sell what you shoot, I'm going to recommend sticking within a system that you can get support on, as large format film is a very small group within a small group of photographers.

Shooting panoramas with the proper head is great, and can even be done freehand...

Sun Valley, Idaho - 360 with the 645z hand held, 31 shots: http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/195713
Sun Valley, Idaho - 22 shots wide hand held: http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/195642

Had I given a stop of ISO the shots would have been a touch better, 2 stops (1 lens, 1 shutter) would have been even better.  Doing it with a tripod & head would have let me get to the ideal f/10 ISO 100, but I was snowboarding and didn't want to carry it.

[MoreOrLess]

Hello again folks,

So, I happened to land on something that I thought would be worth sharing and asking here. During my on-going research on the subject, I came across this kickstarter campaign from Hong Kong.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wingsiu/617-film-diy-camera-challenges-80megapixels-equiva/description

This guy has made a concept DIY 617 film camera using simple materials and the sample images look acceptable enough, other than of course the vignetting on the wide lens images. I have tried to interact with this guy on facebook and from what I understood from the communication is that the lens boards will be made according to copal # and flange focal distance and for focusing, a see-through paper is said to be included which will serve as a makeshift ground glass (I am not very sure of this myself). There will also be a focus adjustment set used to change the distance of the lens from the film. The cost of everything seems reasonable and he is willing to make me a similar 624 as well for not much more than the 617. But before making a decision and jumping onto this, I thought I would ask the experts and pros here to kindly take some time and have a look at the page and advise me what I should or shouldn't do or avoid to get everything right in this case.

I have questions such as if there's no viewfinder, how is one supposed to see and compose a scene ? Can a viewfinder from a company like Fotoman be used with this camera for a specific lens ? Fotoman gave a quote earlier for the viewfinder for $150.

Focusing too has got me confused and I am afraid I couldn't fully understand how it works so I want to learn more. If you can't see through the lens, how are you supposed to focus on the scene ? In your opinion, can the Fotoman Helical Focuser (very expensive around $320) and ground glass ($100) be used on this camera ? Fotoman also has a rangefinder ($180), how can that help on this camera (if it can) ?

How long a lens can be used on a 624 version of this camera (300mm/400mm) ? The guy said any large format lens with big enough image circle for 624 would work as long as the flange distance is correctly adjusted during assemble. Any pointers to check ?

Any other suggestions/advice/details that I am missing ?

Thanks.

Focus is normally done by scale for panorama cameras isn't it? honestly though to me it sounds like this wouldn't be that much of an issue for you given that you say your work generally doesn't have foreground in it, just set the lens near enough to infinity.

The most obvious advantage of shooting film I spose is that if your dealing with a dynamic subject that needs to be captured in a single image. One way to get a somewhat similar kind of experience much cheaper might be to just buy a panorama viewfinder and stick it on your D700 hot shoe to help with visualisation. Personally speaking I shoot my digital panoramas hand held most of the time in order to get the sequence done ASAP and avoid changing lighting and movement as much as possible.

[warpdrive]

What is your end goal Warpdrive?  Are you looking to sell the work you create with the 624 or is it for personal work?  If your end goal is to sell what you shoot, I'm going to recommend sticking within a system that you can get support on, as large format film is a very small group within a small group of photographers.

Shooting panoramas with the proper head is great, and can even be done freehand...

Sun Valley, Idaho - 360 with the 645z hand held, 31 shots: http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/195713
Sun Valley, Idaho - 22 shots wide hand held: http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/195642

Had I given a stop of ISO the shots would have been a touch better, 2 stops (1 lens, 1 shutter) would have been even better.  Doing it with a tripod & head would have let me get to the ideal f/10 ISO 100, but I was snowboarding and didn't want to carry it.

Those are beautiful panoramas Joe. How does Gigapan fair in supporting the weight of a 645z ? I read Gigapan systems are not very stable for bigger heavier cameras, let alone a tank that 645z is. Are these multi-row panos and with individual shots taken in portrait orientation ?

For now, all is personal stuff, no selling but am not sure how it works out in the future though. It's a tough route to follow I reckon but once set in place, can be very rewarding.

[warpdrive]

Focus is normally done by scale for panorama cameras isn't it? honestly though to me it sounds like this wouldn't be that much of an issue for you given that you say your work generally doesn't have foreground in it, just set the lens near enough to infinity.

The most obvious advantage of shooting film I spose is that if your dealing with a dynamic subject that needs to be captured in a single image. One way to get a somewhat similar kind of experience much cheaper might be to just buy a panorama viewfinder and stick it on your D700 hot shoe to help with visualisation. Personally speaking I shoot my digital panoramas hand held most of the time in order to get the sequence done ASAP and avoid changing lighting and movement as much as possible.

You're right, the greatest advantage of using film is to be able to have a single high-res exposure of a dynamic scene in which the light is changing quickly. I too have been using the same rapid fire technique for my panos but it's far far away from being an optimally sharp and detailed exposure if you just zoom in a little (especially if it's hand-held) and you can still miss out on certain small details such as thick cloud covers changing the light or covering a mountain peak that you're interested to compose as one of your main subject and then it might be gone out of sight for like hours and by then the light and the entire scene would be totally different.

[MoreOrLess]

You're right, the greatest advantage of using film is to be able to have a single high-res exposure of a dynamic scene in which the light is changing quickly. I too have been using the same rapid fire technique for my panos but it's far far away from being an optimally sharp and detailed exposure if you just zoom in a little (especially if it's hand-held) and you can still miss out on certain small details such as thick cloud covers changing the light or covering a mountain peak that you're interested to compose as one of your main subject and then it might be gone out of sight for like hours and by then the light and the entire scene would be totally different.

Yeah as you move into longer tele that does limit performance somewhat, the same with shooting in lower light. Hand held I don't generally find changing light to be an issue as I can get though say half a dozen shots in 10 secs or less, on a tripod though it does I find become more of an issue as tightening and loosening the ballhead makes things considerably longer. If you have fast moving elements of the composition as well like say flowing water then multiple exposures are only an option if you influence heavy motion blur via long exposure which makes changing light even more of an issue.

Honestly I think its tough to make a definitive judgement without knowing your use and means, is budget an issue for you? will higher exposure images lead to greater income if you plan any?

One consideration that comes to mind with regards buying a higher end scanner would be do you plan on buying any other specialist film cameras? seems to me the more cameras you use it with the better value your going to get.

[Joe Towner]

Those are beautiful panoramas Joe. How does Gigapan fair in supporting the weight of a 645z ? I read Gigapan systems are not very stable for bigger heavier cameras, let alone a tank that 645z is. Are these multi-row panos and with individual shots taken in portrait orientation ?

For now, all is personal stuff, no selling but am not sure how it works out in the future though. It's a tough route to follow I reckon but once set in place, can be very rewarding.

Thanks, I actually don't have a Gigapan, I just find their site easy to share large images.  These two were shot hand-held, so no rig or other 'make life easy for yourself tools'.  Here's a multi-row to which I need to revisit with newer software:  http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/179504    It was done with the 645Z and the 200m lens, using the Novoflex VR-II system with a different indexing base, reusing the included base as the vertical pivot point.  95% of my stitches are done portrait orientation.  I also did one with the 150mm and mostly constructed Nodal setup using a gimbal head and the micro-focus rail in the Novoflex kit.  It worked well, so depending on what you have, there may be one in your bag.

It's easy to do, but your computer will hate you.  The thing is, once you hit a certain point, no film setup will be able to match it - grain details are a known size.

[kers]

You're right, the greatest advantage of using film is to be able to have a single high-res exposure of a dynamic scene in which the light is changing quickly. I too have been using the same rapid fire technique for my panos but it's far far away from being an optimally sharp and detailed exposure if you just zoom in a little (especially if it's hand-held) and you can still miss out on certain small details such as thick cloud covers changing the light or covering a mountain peak that you're interested to compose as one of your main subject and then it might be gone out of sight for like hours and by then the light and the entire scene would be totally different.

I think you must be doing something wrong then...
I get pixel perfect stitched images handheld - 36MP sharp.
In the mountains you hardly need a tripod because of the distance of the subject.
This image below is 15000px wide - d810  50mm - i took it handheld while walking and it took several seconds to make.

If you were on film:
a you have less choice to shoot exactly the part of the scene you need- it is locked in the type of camera.
b only after you have developed the film you will see if it is sharp + if you like it. ( after you got back- no direct feedback)
c you need a really good scan to get the same quality the digital capture has nowadays.
d you will take a long time to remove all the dust from that scan (- or drip your film in an even more expensive  oil- drumscan)
e Will take a long time getting the colours right ( negative film)- or have a problem with the dynamic range (slide).
f it will take a lot of time and money for one image even to see if it is good enough.

+ one advantage: live view- you can actually see that you focussed right.
+ other advantage- you can use f2.8 with a good lens and make good stitches + use high iso if necessary.