Advice on a Fotoman 624 camera/accessories & comparison with digital panoramas !

[warpdrive]

This is my first ever post here and it's going to be a long one. Having been lurking around here for years, mostly directed from google searches for all sorts of photographic help but never posted before. Need help from the experienced members here. Sorry if this has already been asked but I couldn't find any authentic and detailed information on the subject anywhere especially for the film noobs like me. I am a landscape photographer here in Pakistan and over the years my focus and interest has inclined towards panoramic landscape photography. Been doing panoramas for at least last 8-9 years but I find the whole digital pano making process very frustrating, fatiguing and disappointing in the end. I have made some very good panoramas with my Nikon D700 but shooting a decent multi-row pano is a hit-and-miss affair and some details always get missed out and you only get to know about it when you return home from that perilous mountain expedition. I have tried it handheld and on a steady Gitzo tripod but it's always a chance game, plus, if the light is changing, the whole thing gets even more complicated and error-prone.

For some time now, I have been thinking of getting myself a dedicated film panorama camera and after some online research, I have finalized going with the 6x24 format since after having seen a lot of pictures online (there aren't a lot of 624 pictures online btw), this is the format that suits my mental vision well. But before actually jumping in and spending thousands of dollars blindly, I need some solid advice on the pros and cons of this decision. I ask that because in my country there's no availability and information on any LF or MF cameras, lenses, films, labs (developing/scanning etc.) so each and everything will have to be imported and it will be a nightmare for me in terms of cost and logistics so the margin of error is zero here and there's zero possibility of returns. Plus, Ebay/Paypal don't operate here as well. Developing, I plan to do on my own, will look into what stuff I need to get, but scanning is something I am still totally clueless about. I need the absolute best resolution out of those long film strips but can't afford those outrageously expensive Imacon scanners. I heard Epson scanners wouldn't be able to yield the very best for printing large.

Folks here who have used a Fotoman 624 camera, could you please shed some light on this situation ? Is this decision really worth it or can the digital process be improved to the point of perfect consistency and accuracy ? I reckon there are dedicated panorama rigs which might improve one's accuracy but those seem to very heavy and cumbersome. On the other hand, the complications of using a film camera, the cost involved, availability, import etc. of film also seems daunting.

I asked Fotoman China (http://www.fotoman.cc) for a quote on email and they replied to me asking which of the lenses I would be needing exactly. Considering the fact that I love taking normal to long distance panoramas with my D700 with focal lengths ranging from 50mm to 100mm and sometimes 135mm, I am wondering which lenses would be most suitable for my style of panoramic shooting on 624 format. I never go for very wide angle panoramas like 24mm. My subjects are mostly distant landscapes and I try to avoid any foreground distractions from getting into the frame as much as possible. From internet reading and researching, I am getting inclined towards two lenses, a 300mm and a 180mm. Some of my work can be seen at my flickr profile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aqs-theconcept/) to get an idea of what kind of field of view I like for my panoramas. I might not have any 624 dimension pano on my profile but you will get the idea. Will 300mm be too long ? Should I consider 150mm and 180mm only ? I am trying to get a comparison with my 135 format field of view. But whichever focal lengths I finally choose, I want the absolute best in terms of resolution, sharpness, contrast, tonality etc.

I have read that focusing can be done via a helical mount or a ground glass, both of which are new for me and since I cannot get my hands on either of them to practice, I will have to learn about them from reading and watching over the internet. How to accurately focus between the shots ? I don't want to come back only to find that I missed focus on every shot. Is a Fotoman Rangefinder also available for this purpose ? How good is that ?

What other accessories would I be needing ? No real LF movements but I read it has something called a shift adapter. If not for extending the DoF, what is a shift movement used for on a panoramic camera ?

Are these Chinese Fotoman cameras on Ebay and elsewhere original Fotoman ? Went through a few ads and prices are in the range of $750-800. There's one from Canada asking $2000! Not sure what's the difference. All say Fotoman 624. Reading a number of old threads here mostly from 2009 and 2011, I came to know that Fotoman had closed its business in the USA. There were probably some representatives from Fotoman on this forum and I saw some detailed replies from them. If they are still here and read this, I would appreciate if you too chime in and guide me through all this.

There's a table of lenses on their website (http://www.fotoman.cc/showPro.asp?id=34) that can be mounted on this camera and they say that if you want to have some other lenses other than these then the flange focal distances should be between 97mm and 296mm. And there's something called "Copal #" which I don't know about and I think all lenses in this table are Copal #0 & 1 (not sure). What if I want to mount a Copal #3 lens on this camera such as a Schneider 300mm f/5.6 Apo-Symmar L (read it's very good but bulky) ? Is this doable ?

Sorry for such a long essay, tried to be as much detailed as possible to explain my situation. I know there are points in my post that belong in a separate thread but they are directly related to my queries, plus I don't have any other way of knowing and clearing my confusions up. Want to avoid any potential pitfalls. I might have missed some important details that I don't have an idea about but would definitely want to get enlightened on.

Thanks,
Faisal` .

[Joe Towner]

Not to say shooting film is a bad idea (I really want a Horseman SW612) but start with an indexing panorama head.  Novoflex, Manfrotto, Benro, Nodal Ninja among others make them, and there are places to even rent them.  It takes all the guess work out of if you got the whole thing.

-Joe

[Craig Magee]

I'd second the indexed panoramic head firstly, they are not cumbersome at all. Certainly no more so than a 6x24 camera with the lens you are thinking of using.

Can't answer about the quality of the Fotoman or the equivalent focal length you might want,  but you will need a lens that covers 8x10" sheet film at least for that width, so the widest is around 127mm I think. Light fall off towards the outer edges is going to need to be corrected by a centre filter as well which is added complexity and cost.

Scanning though is your biggest problem. Imacon is out anyway, as they max out at 6x18, though you can get the older versions used for around £1000 normally so not that mad priced. I'm not sure if the Epson flatbed will scan quite that large either, but then the quality just won't do the format justice and it will be a pain to scan perfectly as there is no holder.. So you are then looking at drum scanning which is probably non existent where you are. Or print in the dark room and scan the prints, again not ideal.

If you want to try film I would consider 6x18 instead, which is still quite panoramic, and then look at cameras like the Noblex or Horizon which have a rotating lens to negate the need for a center filter to compensate for light fall off. But they do create a curved distortion horizontally. But you'll get the same effect with an indexed panoramic head shooting digitally.

[ttssbbs]

This is my first ever post here and it's going to be a long one. Having been lurking around here for years, mostly directed from google searches for all sorts of photographic help but never posted before. Need help from the experienced members here. Sorry if this has already been asked but I couldn't find any authentic and detailed information on the subject anywhere especially for the film noobs like me. I am a landscape photographer here in Pakistan and over the years my focus and interest has inclined towards panoramic landscape photography. Been doing panoramas for at least last 8-9 years but I find the whole digital pano making process very frustrating, fatiguing and disappointing in the end. I have made some very good panoramas with my Nikon D700 but shooting a decent multi-row pano is a hit-and-miss affair and some details always get missed out and you only get to know about it when you return home from that perilous mountain expedition. I have tried it handheld and on a steady Gitzo tripod but it's always a chance game, plus, if the light is changing, the whole thing gets even more complicated and error-prone.

For some time now, I have been thinking of getting myself a dedicated film panorama camera and after some online research, I have finalized going with the 6x24 format since after having seen a lot of pictures online (there aren't a lot of 624 pictures online btw), this is the format that suits my mental vision well. But before actually jumping in and spending thousands of dollars blindly, I need some solid advice on the pros and cons of this decision. I ask that because in my country there's no availability and information on any LF or MF cameras, lenses, films, labs (developing/scanning etc.) so each and everything will have to be imported and it will be a nightmare for me in terms of cost and logistics so the margin of error is zero here and there's zero possibility of returns. Plus, Ebay/Paypal don't operate here as well. Developing, I plan to do on my own, will look into what stuff I need to get, but scanning is something I am still totally clueless about. I need the absolute best resolution out of those long film strips but can't afford those outrageously expensive Imacon scanners. I heard Epson scanners wouldn't be able to yield the very best for printing large.

Folks here who have used a Fotoman 624 camera, could you please shed some light on this situation ? Is this decision really worth it or can the digital process be improved to the point of perfect consistency and accuracy ? I reckon there are dedicated panorama rigs which might improve one's accuracy but those seem to very heavy and cumbersome. On the other hand, the complications of using a film camera, the cost involved, availability, import etc. of film also seems daunting.

I asked Fotoman China (http://www.fotoman.cc) for a quote on email and they replied to me asking which of the lenses I would be needing exactly. Considering the fact that I love taking normal to long distance panoramas with my D700 with focal lengths ranging from 50mm to 100mm and sometimes 135mm, I am wondering which lenses would be most suitable for my style of panoramic shooting on 624 format. I never go for very wide angle panoramas like 24mm. My subjects are mostly distant landscapes and I try to avoid any foreground distractions from getting into the frame as much as possible. From internet reading and researching, I am getting inclined towards two lenses, a 300mm and a 180mm. Some of my work can be seen at my flickr profile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aqs-theconcept/) to get an idea of what kind of field of view I like for my panoramas. I might not have any 624 dimension pano on my profile but you will get the idea. Will 300mm be too long ? Should I consider 150mm and 180mm only ? I am trying to get a comparison with my 135 format field of view. But whichever focal lengths I finally choose, I want the absolute best in terms of resolution, sharpness, contrast, tonality etc.

I have read that focusing can be done via a helical mount or a ground glass, both of which are new for me and since I cannot get my hands on either of them to practice, I will have to learn about them from reading and watching over the internet. How to accurately focus between the shots ? I don't want to come back only to find that I missed focus on every shot. Is a Fotoman Rangefinder also available for this purpose ? How good is that ?

What other accessories would I be needing ? No real LF movements but I read it has something called a shift adapter. If not for extending the DoF, what is a shift movement used for on a panoramic camera ?

Are these Chinese Fotoman cameras on Ebay and elsewhere original Fotoman ? Went through a few ads and prices are in the range of $750-800. There's one from Canada asking $2000! Not sure what's the difference. All say Fotoman 624. Reading a number of old threads here mostly from 2009 and 2011, I came to know that Fotoman had closed its business in the USA. There were probably some representatives from Fotoman on this forum and I saw some detailed replies from them. If they are still here and read this, I would appreciate if you too chime in and guide me through all this.

There's a table of lenses on their website (http://www.fotoman.cc/showPro.asp?id=34) that can be mounted on this camera and they say that if you want to have some other lenses other than these then the flange focal distances should be between 97mm and 296mm. And there's something called "Copal #" which I don't know about and I think all lenses in this table are Copal #0 & 1 (not sure). What if I want to mount a Copal #3 lens on this camera such as a Schneider 300mm f/5.6 Apo-Symmar L (read it's very good but bulky) ? Is this doable ?

Sorry for such a long essay, tried to be as much detailed as possible to explain my situation. I know there are points in my post that belong in a separate thread but they are directly related to my queries, plus I don't have any other way of knowing and clearing my confusions up. Want to avoid any potential pitfalls. I might have missed some important details that I don't have an idea about but would definitely want to get enlightened on.

Thanks,
Faisal` .

Have you tried 617？ 617 is easy to get and try， fuji，linhof，fotoman，horseman

[warpdrive]

Not to say shooting film is a bad idea (I really want a Horseman SW612) but start with an indexing panorama head.  Novoflex, Manfrotto, Benro, Nodal Ninja among others make them, and there are places to even rent them.  It takes all the guess work out of if you got the whole thing.

-Joe

Joe, I hear you on that pano head suggestion. You are not the first one to say that, in fact, I myself have been questioning the practicality and hassle of going with the decision of importing everything and putting such a huge upfront and ongoing cost. There is absolutely no availability here of anything so renting is not an option. That means I have to guess and choose the best based on the online reviews according to my needs and importing it which also means no possibility of returns either. I have looked at the Gigapan Epic Pro but reviews say it's not very stable for a heavy setup. Nodal Ninja M2 might be better and I will have to research more on that. But there are scenes and situations where you can't use a stitched pano setup because it takes a lot of time (somewhere between a few minutes to more than half an hour) and the changing light and cloud formation on the mountains etc. don't wait for you to set everything up and take multiple exposures. In my work I have often crossed a hundred exposure mark for a single pano and I have missed important details on sunsets and sunrises only because of this so I find it very frustrating and cumbersome. Also, the look and tones of film are something I simply adore and although hundreds of film emulation plugins and presets are available now, they simply don't hold upto the real thing, but that could just be my personal opinion.

[jamgolf]

Hi Faisal

1. Horseman 617 panoramic was probably the camera that I found to be most satisfying as an amateur photographer.
2. I rarely stitch because to me stitching is the most dissatisfying part of digital photography. Actually I hate it.

With these two decidedly strong statements I will recommend you to stick with a digital solution for the following reasons:

1. A camera like 6x24 or 6x17 is just a box. It has nothing to help you compose, focus, expose etc. So you'll need a lot of exposure & focus bracketing and shots with varying compositions that you think might work. It can feel like shooting in the dark.
2. For an inexperienced user dealing with dark slides can be frustrating. Imagine making several exposures then realizing you did not take out the dark slide, or imagine film being exposed by stray light because you did not reinsert the dark slide.
3. Film availability is limited and good film is costly. Also, loading film onto the spools, storing exposed film, keeping film protected from elements or damage while travelling can become a major pain.
4. You'll have to carry a lot of film and you may miss opportunities because of not having enough film.
5. You'll have to send the film to a shop that knows how to process (and handle) transparencies or negatives properly (for you that would mean another country) - so in addition to the shipping cost, there will be the cost of processing and the possibility of loss or damage. Plus the time to send and get the film back.
6. Dynamic range is limited, so usage of ND filters can be important i.e. you'll need a several different kinds to manage exposure. Also, without any visual feedback you would not know if your placement of filters is working or not. Also, with large image circles, lenses that cover a 6x24 will need center filters. Those are not cheap and are even harder to find.
7. You might have to acquire and get comfortable with a spot meter and remember to bring it with you.
8. If everything goes well, then you have the slightly easier task of scanning - which is another can of worms.

If its your passion then go for it. The first time you see a velvia transparency on a light box, you might be overcome by emotion.

But do not take this lightly. The frustrations and struggles of digital stitching are nothing in comparison. They are minor inconveniences at best.

Good luck to you !

(BTW - I was also born in the land of the pure)

[warpdrive]

I'd second the indexed panoramic head firstly, they are not cumbersome at all. Certainly no more so than a 6x24 camera with the lens you are thinking of using.

Can't answer about the quality of the Fotoman or the equivalent focal length you might want,  but you will need a lens that covers 8x10" sheet film at least for that width, so the widest is around 127mm I think. Light fall off towards the outer edges is going to need to be corrected by a centre filter as well which is added complexity and cost.

Scanning though is your biggest problem. Imacon is out anyway, as they max out at 6x18, though you can get the older versions used for around £1000 normally so not that mad priced. I'm not sure if the Epson flatbed will scan quite that large either, but then the quality just won't do the format justice and it will be a pain to scan perfectly as there is no holder.. So you are then looking at drum scanning which is probably non existent where you are. Or print in the dark room and scan the prints, again not ideal.

If you want to try film I would consider 6x18 instead, which is still quite panoramic, and then look at cameras like the Noblex or Horizon which have a rotating lens to negate the need for a center filter to compensate for light fall off. But they do create a curved distortion horizontally. But you'll get the same effect with an indexed panoramic head shooting digitally.

Craig, thanks for replying. I already attached a link to Fotoman's webpage where they have a table listing most of the lenses that are compatible with this camera so once you're sure about the focal length you want, choosing a lens is not a problem. And from what I have read on the forums, you only need a center filter for very wide angle lenses like 90mm or shorter focal lengths. I want to know more though.

The biggest hurdle of course is the scanning as you mentioned. Some people have even suggested to do it in parts of 6x9 each on say a Nikon Coolscan. I am not totally sure if it requires cutting and damaging the film strip but I know people who are doing it without cutting with good results. Do you have any experience with Epson flatbed scanners for MF and LF film ? While I don't consider those to be producing anything for a gallery level print but people like this guy Nick Carver do shoot 6x17 on a Shen Hao 617 camera and scan on an Epson and get very good results for large prints. Some even scan with their DSLRs and have made dependable setups for that. That's also another possibility I want to look more into.

I was first considering going with the 6x17 but after seeing so many images of the 6x17 format compared to the 6x24 I think I much prefer the latter. My own panoramic crops and my taste follow the 624 format better. But you're right 6x17 is much easier and practical in terms of availability and everything else.

I will also look into the option of getting an excellent and stable panoramic head for stitching because after all, the convenience wins on all fronts and given my situation here, that's definitely the more convenient and cheaper option, at least for now.

From a learner's perspective though, I would still love to have valuable feedback on my questions for any future considerations, especially the lens focal lengths and focus mechanisms.

[jamgolf]

Regarding your questions related to focal lengths ...
Field of view depends on the sensor/film size.
Based on some quick calculations here are the rough focal length equivalents:

============================================================
6x24Format      Horizontal FoV     Equivalent 135FF Format
============================================================
180mm      =>   67 degrees         <=   27mm
300mm       =>   43 degrees         <=  45mm

============================================================
6x17Format          Horizontal FoV     Equivalent 135FF Format
============================================================
150mm      =>  60 degrees         <=  32mm
180mm      =>  50 degrees         <=   38mm
300mm       =>  32 degrees         <=  58mm


So 300mm will not be too long. Infact it is not even enough to be in your favored 50mm-135mm range.

[jamgolf]

>>>> what is a shift movement used for on a panoramic camera ?

On any camera (panoramic or otherwise) shift (rise, fall, or sideways) can be used for composition, but only if the lens being used has a large enough image circle.
Examples:
(a) By dialing in ~5-10mm rise, the very close foreground will be be eliminated such as your own shadow or some distractions.
(b) A few mm of rise may also be used to keep  vertical lines straight such as buildings etc. because tilting the camera upwards will cause a convergence effect.
etc.

If the lens being used does not have an image circle large enough to accommodate the amount of shift, then you'll have dark/black regions that fall outside the lens' image circle.

[warpdrive]

Hi Faisal

1. Horseman 617 panoramic was probably the camera that I found to be most satisfying as an amateur photographer.
2. I rarely stitch because to me stitching is the most dissatisfying part of digital photography. Actually I hate it.

With these two decidedly strong statements I will recommend you to stick with a digital solution for the following reasons:
1. A camera like 6x24 or 6x17 is just a box. It has nothing to help you compose, focus, expose etc. So you'll need a lot of exposure & focus bracketing and shots with varying compositions that you think might work. It can feel like shooting in the dark.
2. For an inexperienced user dealing with dark slides can be frustrating. Imagine making several exposures then realizing you did not take out the dark slide, or imagine film being exposed by stray light because you did not reinsert the dark slide.
3. Film availability is limited and good film is costly. Also, loading film onto the spools, storing exposed film, keeping film protected from elements or damage while travelling can become a major pain.
4. You'll have to carry a lot of film and you may miss opportunities because of not having enough film.
5. You'll have to send the film to a shop that knows how to process (and handle) transparencies or negatives properly (for you that would mean another country) - so in addition to the shipping cost, there will be the cost of processing and the possibility of loss or damage. Plus the time to send and get the film back.
6. Dynamic range is limited, so usage of ND filters can be important i.e. you'll need a several different kinds to manage exposure. Also, without any visual feedback you would not know if your placement of filters is working or not.
7. You might have to acquire and get comfortable with a spot meter and remember to bring it with you.
8. If everything goes well, then you have the slightly easier task of scanning - which is another can of worms.

If its your passion then go for it. The first you see a velvia transparency on a light box, you might be overcome by emotion.
But do not take this lightly. The frustrations and struggles of digital stitching are nothing in comparison. They are minor inconveniences at best.

Good luck to you !

(BTW - I was also born in the land of the pure)

Hello jamgolf,

Thanks a lot for such an insightful analysis. That's exactly the kind of reply I was looking for because my passion is certainly there but at the same time I don't want to be trapped into a more frustrating situation. At the very least, I wanted to lay my hands on such a setup and see what it would be like to have beautiful and detailed Velvia transparencies of all the places that I have so desperately planned to make perfect panoramas of.

All the points you mentioned, I already had similar thoughts going on in my head and that's the reason why I couldn't actually proceed with my long-held wish of importing a LF camera setup. I had originally planned to get two film cameras, a used MF Rollei, Mamiya or Hasselblad for my environmental portraits project up north and a dedicated panoramic camera for the mountain landscapes. Been doing this extensively for years with a digital camera with very good results but the colors and tonality of larger formats film have always badly tempted me to try and get my feet wet in this domain. Have even thought of doing a DYI solution But as it turns out, it's very complicated and not so straightforward and extremely expensive.

At first I thought I would get the camera and the accessories and would try to learn and develop the film on my own at home, scanning was and has been the only factor that I was totally clueless about. Been checking used scanners on Ebay for years knowing that I wouldn't be able to own one. Then people started to scan their film with their high-res DSLRs and I thought this might be my ticket to the film world but I know that the quality would just be ok for online sharing and not for anything more than that. But still it's a viable proposition in my case.

Thanks for wishing me luck

And great to know that Pakistan is a part of you and your memories. Which part of Pakistan btw ?

[warpdrive]

Regarding your questions related to focal lengths ...
Field of view depends on the sensor/film size.
Based on some quick calculations here are the rough focal length equivalents:

============================================================
6x24Format      Horizontal FoV     Equivalent 135FF Format
============================================================
180mm      =>   67 degrees         <=   27mm
300mm       =>   43 degrees         <=  45mm

============================================================
6x17Format          Horizontal FoV     Equivalent 135FF Format
============================================================
150mm      =>  60 degrees         <=  32mm
180mm      =>  50 degrees         <=   38mm
300mm       =>  32 degrees         <=  58mm


So 300mm will not be too long. Infact it is not even enough to be in your favored 50mm-135mm range.

Thanks for those calculations. I was of the opinion that a 300mm would be close to something like 85mm-100mm which would be almost perfect for my taste. But as you calculated, it's much shorter than that and being the longest focal length possible with this camera, would be my only choice if I indeed decide to go with this system. Anything shorter would be too wide and going by my experience, is too hard to get any meaningful composition with.

Regarding the movements, I understand your point. I own a PC-Nikkor 45mm and yes I have tried making panos with its shift function but it's still limiting. Am sure that in LF cameras realm it's much more meaningful but the kind of movement beneficial for me would be 'tilt' to extend the DoF of the scene from near to infinity and that's what I originally meant to ask that if not for extending the DoF, the shift function would not be very useful, at least in my case.

I think the lenses given in the table on their website, all have big enough image circles to avoid any fall-offs, am not sure though, please correct if I am wrong.

Thanks again

[Craig Magee]

You're right actually that a 300mm wouldn't need a center filter.
The image circle is about double that of the film size, on something like the Schneider Apo Symmar 300.
But that is a pretty large chunk of glass to lug around, and the shaped lens mount for it will be rather big.

From experience of epsons and imacons with 4x5, the imacon has the edge in terms of sharpness and color rendition.
Especially if you shoot negative. Which would make more sense than transparency to start with as it is more forgiving. Portra 400 is superb.
The other problem I see with the epson is keeping the film flat, the stock holders are awful though there might be custom ones out there by someone for 6x24. People have come up with oil mounting solutions but that is a total pain... I've heard of people scanning in sections, but i'd imagine you would have to cut into sections, especially using a Coolscan say. The coolscans are decent, but I would really look for an imacon precision or photo and an old computer that has scsi to run it. The internals are pretty much the same as the current ones hasselblad sell.

You could actually scan on the imacon using a 6x18 holder, in two parts and then combine in photoshop. It would be fairly easy to get right. And could do this without cutting the film!

Plus the Imacons have their own propriety raw format, which while it is only compatible with flex color, it makes the scanner very versatile.
You can scan the raw once an then make future corrections to that, instead of having to scan again! I find it super helpful for working with film.

Film is a brilliant thing when you get it right., so if you are determined to give it a go, i'm sure you will be more than happy with the results, but its going to be expensive, awkward and time consuming.

[David Mantripp]

Hi Faisal,

I've looked at your Flickr stream, so I have some idea of what you want to achieve.  I'm living in Switzerland, where you'd probably think that film panoramic photography would be easier to get into than in Pakistan, but even here it has become increasingly difficult to find good E6 film processing, and the film scanner market is basically dead.  I use a Plustek Opticfilm 120 these days which goes up to 6x12, so you could, probably scan a 6x24 in two parts.  The Plustek, by the way, is nowhere near as bad as various forum denizens would have you believe.  And it has the advantage (although maybe not in Pakistan) of being a current product with a warranty, customer support and up-to-date software and hardware interfaces.

Having said this, I have not shot a single frame of panoramic film for over a year, as that role has been taken over by my Sigma DP0 Quattro.  This camera has its limitations, but compared to an MF pano camera with, say, a 100 ASA slide film loaded, frankly it pulls ahead easily.  The lens is amazing, the colour is very similar to film stock such as Ektachrome.  It has a native 21:9 crop mode, which sits halfway between 612 and 617.  So not quite as wide as you want, but with the output resolution you can crop further.   It does have some disadvantages compared to a 624 film camera, but on the other hand it is a fully self-contained solution and considerably less expensive.

Since I got the Sigma my obsessive-compulsive following of Linhof 612/617 auctions on eBay is completely cured :-)

[kers]

Hello Faisal,

I do a lot of stitching and would not dream to go back to film.
I use a simple but efficient Panorama setup from Really Right Stuff and it works very well. I do a stitch within 1 pixel on a 36MP camera.

Why do you stitch- for image detail?- then just step up from a 12MP d700 to a 36-100MP camera... then you need far less images for the same quality.
Stitching with digital is far more perfect than it will ever be with film.
Why do you choose film?; for the beautiful analogue tones?  What do you think is left of these original tones after scanning + digital printing?
+scanning is a lot of work/time ;  it is very expensive, for you need a good scan...

Digitally you can see on the spot what you have and what should be changed...to make a better shot... so much more control...
just my thoughts... I do a lot of stitching in the mountains and never have a problem and i like pixel perfect images...
Use good software like ptGui- they do the stitching for you...
good luck,

Pieter Kers

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Hello Faisal,

I do a lot of stitching and would not dream to go back to film.
I use a simple but efficient Panorama setup from Really Right Stuff and it works very well. I do a stitch within 1 pixel on a 36MP camera.

Why do you stitch- for image detail?- then just step up from a 12MP d700 to a 36-100MP camera... then you need far less images for the same quality.
Stitching with digital is far more perfect than it will ever be with film.

...

Use good software like ptGui- they do the stitching for you...

I agree with Pieter.

I also use RRS gear for the Multi-row Panorama Capture part. I additionally use an indexing rotator (Manfrotto 300N) to speed up the image taking, and it helps to avoid missing a shot or getting the overlaps wrong. It also helps when shooting partially featureless skies where there is no usable detail for placing control points for stitching.

The added weight of an indexing rotator can be compensated by not using a tripod head, but a leveling device instead. I use an EZ-Leveler II, mounted directly on the tripodbase (one could also use a leveling base that is made for the tripod), with the rotator on top, with a clamp on top, to hold my RRS bar and other stuff. It makes for a relatively compact setup, which is nice when hiking, and it makes sure that the Yaw rotation plane is in the proper place.

PTGUI is indeed a very mature panostitcher application that can save a lot of time, and produces high quality stitched panos.

By using digital capture, you can save a lot of time in postprocessing, and it also opens possibilities for difficult lighting situations by shooting HDR sequences, and/or Focus stacking, if the situation asks for that. Multiple exposure film scans are much more trouble to register into perfect alignment.

Cheers,
Bart

[warpdrive]

Hi Faisal,

I've looked at your Flickr stream, so I have some idea of what you want to achieve.  I'm living in Switzerland, where you'd probably think that film panoramic photography would be easier to get into than in Pakistan, but even here it has become increasingly difficult to find good E6 film processing, and the film scanner market is basically dead.  I use a Plustek Opticfilm 120 these days which goes up to 6x12, so you could, probably scan a 6x24 in two parts.  The Plustek, by the way, is nowhere near as bad as various forum denizens would have you believe.  And it has the advantage (although maybe not in Pakistan) of being a current product with a warranty, customer support and up-to-date software and hardware interfaces.

Having said this, I have not shot a single frame of panoramic film for over a year, as that role has been taken over by my Sigma DP0 Quattro.  This camera has its limitations, but compared to an MF pano camera with, say, a 100 ASA slide film loaded, frankly it pulls ahead easily.  The lens is amazing, the colour is very similar to film stock such as Ektachrome.  It has a native 21:9 crop mode, which sits halfway between 612 and 617.  So not quite as wide as you want, but with the output resolution you can crop further.   It does have some disadvantages compared to a 624 film camera, but on the other hand it is a fully self-contained solution and considerably less expensive.

Since I got the Sigma my obsessive-compulsive following of Linhof 612/617 auctions on eBay is completely cured :-)

Hi David, thanks for looking at my photostream there. I can totally relate to that obsessive-compulsive following of gear on ebay and just imagine ebay/paypal haven't landed here yet. I sometimes have to get some friend in the US pay for the item and have the item shipped to their address there and then find someone who could carry that thing to Pakistan while taking care of the Paki customs at the same time, and sending money to the US form Pakistan is a pain in the a$$ in itself. Film especially is a tough route for me.

Kind of totally agreed with your film vs digital comparison. While I am highly passionate about doing some serious film work here (portrait if not panoramic), I am completely aware of the complications that would accompany such a venture. And that confusion was the reason I came here to write this post. Have been questioning the practicality of this decision all along but a recent trip to the mountains in last October and difficulty in trying to make a panorama of a scene there with this stitching technique made me think over it again seriously. The scene was so vast (Eastern face of Mt. Nanga Parbat) and with so much detail that it took me at least a few hours of planning (in terms of the best spot to stand to be able to get the best composition, best time, foreground elements such as trees and the woods, smaller layer of rocks and mountains etc.) the day before the shooting day and I estimated I would have to leave 4 in the morning to arrive at the spot just in time for that sunrise on the mighty Himalayas. I did try my best and I WAS able to pull the feat of making that pano but it didn't quite turn out the way I wanted or envisioned it. The cloud formation on bigger mountains leave you little to no margin of missing a chance and if you miss capturing that peak glancing from behind the thick clouds because you're busy figuring out the stitching, then it will mean a missed opportunity and you will have to come back again thousands of kilometers to get it right. That's exactly where a single exposure panoramic camera can come extremely handy and that was exactly the reason that has time and again made me so frustrated in this stitched pano thing. Then there's the issue of difference in exposure between different shots that you have taken for a stitched pano. You could lock the exposure but the scene and lighting is so diverse in such scenarios and there are so many shadow making elements in the scene that in the end it's all messed up and there's a hell lot of work in front of the computer when you return which puts me off even more.

Pardon my frustration

Regarding the Plustek 120, you're not the first person to recommend that. Just last night somebody in a facebook film group was singing its praise and rightly so, it's a very viable and easily available option and not too expensive either. For a film scanner I always get amazed by the tones and colors achieved by a Fuji Frontier SP series of scanners, especially SP3000. I have seen thousands of images from it online and there's a magic in its output, far superior to more expensive scanners like Noritsu. Now, Frontier doesn't come new anymore and it's a huge lab-machine that goes by around $3000-4000 on ebay. I can't afford it right now but maybe one day if I can't control my obsessive-compulsive syndrome

That DP0 Quattro looks to be a nice little camera but it's a fixed lens camera right ? I love the output and colors of a Foveon sesnor though.

Faisal` .

[Craig Magee]

I've done quite a few commissions for panoramics using an indexed head. Usually I only do single rows and pick a focal length that gives me the vertical view I want, and then shoot the number of images I need for the horizontal view I want.
Number of shots and overlap settigs can be easily figured out after a bit of practice. I always lock the exposure, sometimes use the self timer to shoot bracketed shots for HDR. Something like the A7r will give you hugely detailed final images and lots of dynamic range to play with. Lightroom is really good for stitching now, and you can stich together raw files which is just amazing for me.

One thing I would say is if you pick up an indexed head, avoid the precision360 heads. I have the first Adjuste. They are well made, but the customer service after you buy one is f-in terrible. Plus there are a few design flaws that become apparent as you work with it. Such as not being able to slide the camera slider all the way forward because the thumb screw clashes with the pivot!

Look at the nodal ninja, rrs, novoflex etc. I use the Adjuste on a manfrotto 755 which has a mini leveling bowl. So you can quickly level the rig on uneven ground . Get a head with an easily adjustable indexing rotation base. Makes life much easier in the field.

[warpdrive]

Hello Faisal,

I do a lot of stitching and would not dream to go back to film.
I use a simple but efficient Panorama setup from Really Right Stuff and it works very well. I do a stitch within 1 pixel on a 36MP camera.

Why do you stitch- for image detail?- then just step up from a 12MP d700 to a 36-100MP camera... then you need far less images for the same quality.
Stitching with digital is far more perfect than it will ever be with film.
Why do you choose film?; for the beautiful analogue tones?  What do you think is left of these original tones after scanning + digital printing?
+scanning is a lot of work/time ;  it is very expensive, for you need a good scan...

Digitally you can see on the spot what you have and what should be changed...to make a better shot... so much more control...
just my thoughts... I do a lot of stitching in the mountains and never have a problem and i like pixel perfect images...
Use good software like ptGui- they do the stitching for you...
good luck,

Pieter Kers

...
I agree with Pieter.

I also use RRS gear for the Multi-row Panorama Capture part. I additionally use an indexing rotator (Manfrotto 300N) to speed up the image taking, and it helps to avoid missing a shot or getting the overlaps wrong. It also helps when shooting partially featureless skies where there is no usable detail for placing control points for stitching.

The added weight of an indexing rotator can be compensated by not using a tripod head, but a leveling device instead. I use an EZ-Leveler II, mounted directly on the tripodbase (one could also use a leveling base that is made for the tripod), with the rotator on top, with a clamp on top, to hold my RRS bar and other stuff. It makes for a relatively compact setup, which is nice when hiking, and it makes sure that the Yaw rotation plane is in the proper place.

PTGUI is indeed a very mature panostitcher application that can save a lot of time, and produces high quality stitched panos.

By using digital capture, you can save a lot of time in postprocessing, and it also opens possibilities for difficult lighting situations by shooting HDR sequences, and/or Focus stacking, if the situation asks for that. Multiple exposure film scans are much more trouble to register into perfect alignment.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart & Pieter,

Thanks for your valuable feedback. With the ever increasing number of replies on different forums in favor of a stable panoramic support system, I think I should give it a try first before jumping ships to the film side. I noted your points Pieter and I agree on most of them, in fact a higher resolution body is on the plans for quite some time (my D700 is in its 9th year now) but I always decide to wait in the end for a more mature body such as D820 or an A7riii (if it's called that) but the main problem is that of capturing individual shots with much longer focal lengths, for instance, I often try to make a pano with a 200mm focal length to be able to completely do justice to the grand scale of the landscape. I normally don't like wide angle panos and think that normal single exposures are enough for that purpose. In this situation, it's really difficult to keep track of all the individual shots you capture and all the detail in each and every little area of the scene. Often, there are missed details in some critical parts of the scene and using clone-stamp or the content-aware-fill don't serve the purpose. I need to figure out a way to avoid these missed details. For the software side, I have extensively used PTGui and Kolor's AutoPano giga and both of them do excellent work but they obviously can't bring something out which wasn't there to begin with in the first place.

Bart, appreciate your detailed account on the pano heads and support systems. My next will definitely be looking into them and reading the reviews. A lot of people say that the Nodal Ninja system is better than the RRS solution. I personally have no experience though, will keep looking online. I believe this is an expense of at least in the range of $1000 or so, right ?
 

[warpdrive]

I've done quite a few commissions for panoramics using an indexed head. Usually I only do single rows and pick a focal length that gives me the vertical view I want, and then shoot the number of images I need for the horizontal view I want.
Number of shots and overlap settigs can be easily figured out after a bit of practice. I always lock the exposure, sometimes use the self timer to shoot bracketed shots for HDR. Something like the A7r will give you hugely detailed final images and lots of dynamic range to play with. Lightroom is really good for stitching now, and you can stich together raw files which is just amazing for me.

One thing I would say is if you pick up an indexed head, avoid the precision360 heads. I have the first Adjuste. They are well made, but the customer service after you buy one is f-in terrible. Plus there are a few design flaws that become apparent as you work with it. Such as not being able to slide the camera slider all the way forward because the thumb screw clashes with the pivot!

Look at the nodal ninja, rrs, novoflex etc. I use the Adjuste on a manfrotto 755 which has a mini leveling bowl. So you can quickly level the rig on uneven ground . Get a head with an easily adjustable indexing rotation base. Makes life much easier in the field.

Craig, I have played extensively with pano stitching and HDR panorama stitching for years and can relate to all that you said. After all these responses I am seriously considering an indexed panorama support system and will start to research the best available models now.

Regarding the desired focal length, I almost always choose a long FL for my landscape panoramas like in the range of 100mm-200mm to fully do justice to the grandeur of the scene at hand, plus for a horizontal panorama I shoot with portrait orientation to avoid that skinny horizontal strip and this portrait oriented shooting is exactly what makes the process very difficult and you need to shoot hundreds of individual exposures. Do you also shoot in portrait orientation ?

[warpdrive]

By the way, I received this response from Fotoman China today:

"Dear Faisal

Thank you for your reply.

The price as follows:

Fotoman 624 camera body: US $1500
Optical viewfinder: US $150
624 Ground glass: US $105
Rangefinder: US $180
Cone for Schneider or Rodestock 180mm lens: US $520
180mm helical focus mount-LT: US $320
Cone for Nikkor M 300/9.0 lens: US $1120
300mm helical focus mount-LT: US $320
Cone for Fujinon 300/8.5 C lens: US $1050
300mm helical focus mount-LT: US $320

The cone for 300mm lens is not available, sorry for the inconvenience. If you would like, we can make for you especially after Chinese Festival . it will cost there weeks, the vacation is not included.

About the price, We would like to offer you the biggest discount-15% discount, if you would like to offer a picture which you shot by Fotoman 624 camera in future. we will be appreciated it.

As you know, Chinese New Year is coming, we will left office on 21st Jan, if we can not reply you in time, please understanding.

Any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us."

All they want is a picture taken with their 624 camera for that 15% discount. I can offer them a complete album in exchange for a greater discount It means things are mainly going downhill.