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Author Topic: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?  (Read 2524 times)

Brookie

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Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« on: January 14, 2017, 11:35:20 AM »

If you've made a b+w conversion in Nik Silver Efex and saved it, can you go back and edit/modify that new file after it has been saved?  From what I can see you can only start over again.  If there is a way to do this, please point me in the right direction as I am just not seeing it. BTW I am working from Lightroom to the plug-in and then back to LR.
Thanks for any suggestions.
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Herbc

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 11:43:45 AM »

You are correct, far as I know.  LR is non destructive, so you should have your original file there to start over with.
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Brookie

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2017, 12:39:24 PM »

Thanks Herb, but you misunderstood my question, I probably wasn't clear enough.

When I make a conversion in Silver Efex and save it as a separate tif file from the original raw file, can I go back and edit/modify the converted tif in Silver Efex once it has been saved?  I can't see where you can do that.

I realize that I can go back to the original raw file and start over, I'd just like to avoid that when possible.

Thanks!
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kikashi

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 02:05:34 PM »

Thanks Herb, but you misunderstood my question, I probably wasn't clear enough.

When I make a conversion in Silver Efex and save it as a separate tif file from the original raw file, can I go back and edit/modify the converted tif in Silver Efex once it has been saved?  I can't see where you can do that.

I realize that I can go back to the original raw file and start over, I'd just like to avoid that when possible.

No, you can't. When you save in SFX, the changes are baked in. The procedure you used isn't saved with the file. I find it very frustrating, but I suppose I'm spoiled by LR's non-destructive parametric editing.

You can edit the converted file in SFX, of course, as you can any tiff; but I expect you knew that already.

Jeremy
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Brookie

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2017, 02:34:47 PM »

Thanks Jeremy.

Just to be sure I fully understand your reply, when you say you can edit in SFX - you mean before you save it, right?  Once the tif is saved, there's no way to go back into SFX and tweak it.

Thanks again for your help!
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2017, 03:26:20 PM »

Thanks Jeremy.

Once the tif is saved, there's no way to go back into SFX and tweak it.


You can open the resulting tif in SFX but it will be a monochrome image with limited editing possibilities.

However, there is a way, which might be not ideal, to achieve what you want;

- When you are finished with your edits in SFX, create a custom preset with a name you will remember or relate to the image. If you need to tweak those adjustmets, you just need to reopen the original file (the raw, not the previously saved tif from SFX) and apply your custom preset. You will be at the same point in SFX as you were before.

john beardsworth

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2017, 03:40:29 PM »

If you've made a b+w conversion in Nik Silver Efex and saved it, can you go back and edit/modify that new file after it has been saved?  From what I can see you can only start over again.  If there is a way to do this, please point me in the right direction as I am just not seeing it. BTW I am working from Lightroom to the plug-in and then back to LR.

As others have said, not with that workflow.

However, if you use Photoshop smart objects your SFX adjustments can be freely edited. So from Lr, Edit > Open as Smart Object in Photoshop. In Photoshop, activate SFX, do your work, and save. You'll see your SFX work adds a smart filter adjustment to that layer. If you want to re-edit, just double click the smart filter.

If you have PS, give it a go. It's very straightforward.
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2017, 03:54:45 PM »

As others have said, not with that workflow.

However, if you use Photoshop smart objects your SFX adjustments can be freely edited. So from Lr, Edit > Open as Smart Object in Photoshop. In Photoshop, activate SFX, do your work, and save. You'll see your SFX work adds a smart filter adjustment to that layer. If you want to re-edit, just double click the smart filter.

If you have PS, give it a go. It's very straightforward.

That's the best solution!

john beardsworth

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2017, 04:18:13 PM »

That's the best solution!

Apart from being able to change your SFX edits, Open As Smart Object means you can also adjust the raw conversion by double clicking the smart object layer (it contains a copy of the raw file). So the method has a couple of big advantages.

The potential downside is file size. That can be mitigated by starting with Edit > Edit in Photoshop, which sends a simple layer to PS. Then in PS you convert the layer to a smart object. The file size is smaller, but you can't adjust the raw conversion.

The new funky way to do all this is with a linked smart object. So the smart object is actually linked to another file - the raw file. Now, if the raw file is in Lightroom, you can use Lr to make further adjustments to it. Save the xmp metadata back to the file, and then in PS you can update the linked smart object. I like this method (at least in theory), and it's easier to do than to describe, but I never seem to use it in practice. I mention it because it is interesting and you may want to try it.
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Brookie

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2017, 06:45:47 PM »

Thanks John,
I'll try the first method you outlined - I'm still pretty new to all of this - LOL!!
Dave
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Hoggy

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Linked smart objects
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2017, 06:07:17 PM »

The new funky way to do all this is with a linked smart object. So the smart object is actually linked to another file - the raw file. Now, if the raw file is in Lightroom, you can use Lr to make further adjustments to it. Save the xmp metadata back to the file, and then in PS you can update the linked smart object. I like this method (at least in theory), and it's easier to do than to describe, but I never seem to use it in practice. I mention it because it is interesting and you may want to try it.

I like the theory of this as well, but in practice it doesn't seem to work so well for me.

If, from LR, I open an image as a smart object..  Then click 'Convert to Linked', it wants to actually save the file as the original [DNG] filename, but the original directory isn't automatically in the dialog..  And to make matters more uncomfortable, when getting to the original directory it wants to overwrite the original - something that I don't feel comfortable doing.

I'm not sure if it would be the same file if overwritten, but I'm not very keen on finding out if it does/is.

Maybe this is something Adobe needs to flesh out, as there is almost a seamless way to go from LR to PS and back to LR, etc..  Close, but no cigar - just yet.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:09:39 PM by Hoggy »
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2017, 09:41:50 PM »

There is no a direct way to use a linked smart object from LR into Photoshop. To avoid having to create a new DNG file as you report, you need to create first a blank file in PS, which is at least of the dimension in pixels of your image, and then go to "File" -> "Place Linked" and select the original file from its location (If it is a raw file with an associated XMP file, it will open first in ACR with the adjustments contained in the XMP file).

This will create the linked smart object in a separate layer and from then on you can update the original raw in LR (remember to save the metadata to an XMP if applicable).

I see advantages for designers with common graphics elements across multiple Photoshop documents or multiuser environments where one user edit the image while another edits the final image. It is the same way you would work using InDesign, where you "Place" the graphics elements instead of pasting or embedding.

I really don't see a benefit for a photographer that works one image at a time between LR-PS, since the reduction in file size (a "collateral" benefit) is not always there, as PS will insert a flattened version of the image anyway (The advantage could be if you linked a layered tiff).

john beardsworth

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 02:16:16 AM »

I see advantages for designers with common graphics elements across multiple Photoshop documents or multiuser environments where one user edit the image while another edits the final image. It is the same way you would work using InDesign, where you "Place" the graphics elements instead of pasting or embedding.

I really don't see a benefit for a photographer that works one image at a time between LR-PS, since the reduction in file size (a "collateral" benefit) is not always there, as PS will insert a flattened version of the image anyway (The advantage could be if you linked a layered tiff).

Yes, I agree that it's more suitable to graphic design uses, though I think it has proved to be over the heads of designer-type users. Essentially it's the basis of Library assets, which already seem to be more widely-adopted.

As for the benefits for photographers, file size is almost always a benefit as you only use this linked smart object workflow with more complex layered files. But with files that only need a quick bit of Photoshopping, the awkwardness of creating the link generally outweighs the benefits of being able to tweak your raw adjustments in Lr (such as not duplicating the raw file, Lr's UI, ability to sync from other Lr work). And it all requires a bit too much mental effort.

But if Lightroom offered an Open as Linked Smart Object command, people would use it all the time. I always felt (first comment) that it was how Adobe should have implemented raw file smart objects at the outset.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 02:26:11 AM by john beardsworth »
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 04:39:44 AM »

But if Lightroom offered an Open as Linked Smart Object command, people would use it all the time. I always felt (first comment) that it was how Adobe should have implemented raw file smart objects at the outset.

This option would be interesting, however there might be a limitation due to the need to save metadata to an XMP (which can be set by default or work with DNGs), as you will not be able to work with Virtual copies, as their metadata is not saved outside the LR catalog.

john beardsworth

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Re: Re-editing a Silver Efex conversion?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 04:46:09 AM »

Another of my long-running campaigns is to merge the snapshot and virtual copy concepts.
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