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Author Topic: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help  (Read 6513 times)

wellcome86

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P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« on: January 11, 2017, 08:28:51 am »

Hi there,

I have a big problem with my P65+.

I tested a P65 back at the PO dealer place. I liked the back and also the performance at 800 ISO.
I order my refurbished back, and surprise totally crap. at 800 ISO I got strange lines. the 4 sensor parts where visible,
I had strange color ghosting in black and greys form green to pink. and on the top CF card module was brocken.
Ok I was sandig it back there repaired it but the ghosting still exists and the sensor parts are again visible after just view months. and the CF module make again some troubles. I still have guarantee, but Im so disappointed by phase one. My first steps after my transition from analog to digital and then this.

Can anyone send me a RAW file with there P65 at 800 ISO. so I can compare my sensor with that shot.
something with dark and grey arias and normal exposure? that would help me to argue with phase one.

Thank you very much
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2017, 08:57:05 am »

Has your dealer commented on this issue?  I doubt they would leave you hanging.
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Joe Towner

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 02:38:07 pm »

Were you looking at a sensor+ file by chance?  I'm not sure anyone likes how the CCD's at ISO800 look - it's more a 'no other option' setting.
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chrismuc

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2017, 03:13:32 pm »

I had the P65+ and it was excellent but IMO only useful at ISO 50 and ISO 100 (same now with my IQ180: excellent at ISO035, very good at ISO 50, good at ISO 100) but these CCD DALSA backs are not made for any higher ISO: Too much noise, reduced effective resolution and artefacts. And in + mode at half resolution (= 15 MP) at higher ISO any Canon 5DII at 21 MP or similar is still so much better that I never considered to use it for such purposes. Only the recent backs and cameras equipped wit the Sony CMOS 50 and 100 MP sensors have excellent high ISO performance.

Are the images by the back fine at ISO 50 and 100 (without visibility of the senior tiles)? As long as you don't lift the shadows extremely the back should provide very smooth gradients w/o artefacts.
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 03:38:13 pm »

Has your dealer commented on this issue?  I doubt they would leave you hanging.

in first place my dealer agreed but phase one didn't, in the report case. We sent it back anyway and then it turn out they had to change every logic board the back had. even the CF card Modul was broken and that after it came "refurbished" from phase one. that was very disappointing for such a prize.

And now I have again the same issue (also with the CF module). We will see what the dealer will tell and phase one.


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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2017, 03:39:01 pm »

Were you looking at a sensor+ file by chance?  I'm not sure anyone likes how the CCD's at ISO800 look - it's more a 'no other option' setting.

in normal mode and in the + mode. off course in the plus mode it looks much better but I still se the sensor pattern.
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 03:55:16 pm »

I had the P65+ and it was excellent but IMO only useful at ISO 50 and ISO 100 (same now with my IQ180: excellent at ISO035, very good at ISO 50, good at ISO 100) but these CCD DALSA backs are not made for any higher ISO: Too much noise, reduced effective resolution and artefacts. And in + mode at half resolution (= 15 MP) at higher ISO any Canon 5DII at 21 MP or similar is still so much better that I never considered to use it for such purposes. Only the recent backs and cameras equipped wit the Sony CMOS 50 and 100 MP sensors have excellent high ISO performance.

Are the images by the back fine at ISO 50 and 100 (without visibility of the senior tiles)? As long as you don't lift the shadows extremely the back should provide very smooth gradients w/o artefacts.

At 50 and 100 everything is ok but from 200 I see color clouds in my pictures. thats not normal. and they didn't fix that in the repair. Look at the picture. that is not normal.
The thing is, before I was buying the P65+ at my dealers place, I was testing it and I have also tested the high Iso in normal mode and + mode. It was ok even good. for that what I was hearing about the high iso. I was aware of that. But my back is awful. It just don't give me the same performance that I have seen with the test back.
I will meet my dealer tomorrow and will report what happened.

 
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 04:03:39 pm »

Hi,

The tiling you see is typical of CCD sensors but should be handled by camera calibration.

Which raw converter are using?

I have been shooting the P45+ with Lightroom and have not seen similar issues, but I have just a couple of shots above 50 ISO.

Best regards
Erik



Hi there,

I have a big problem with my P65+.

I tested a P65 back at the PO dealer place. I liked the back and also the performance at 800 ISO.
I order my refurbished back, and surprise totally crap. at 800 ISO I got strange lines. the 4 sensor parts where visible,
I had strange color ghosting in black and greys form green to pink. and on the top CF card module was brocken.
Ok I was sandig it back there repaired it but the ghosting still exists and the sensor parts are again visible after just view months. and the CF module make again some troubles. I still have guarantee, but Im so disappointed by phase one. My first steps after my transition from analog to digital and then this.

Can anyone send me a RAW file with there P65 at 800 ISO. so I can compare my sensor with that shot.
something with dark and grey arias and normal exposure? that would help me to argue with phase one.

Thank you very much
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2017, 04:08:57 pm »

Hi,

The tiling you see is typical of CCD sensors but should be handled by camera calibration.

Which raw converter are using?

I have been shooting the P45+ with Lightroom and have not seen similar issues, but I have just a couple of shots above 50 ISO.

Best regards
Erik


I use Capture one.
yes I know that its CCD issue but I saw it already good and not visible at 800ISO and the color clouds? is that normal? the color clouds look always the same.
they have always the same pattern and they are always at the same place.
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 04:25:35 pm »

just to show another picture
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 04:27:42 pm »

Hi,

The tiling should be handled by Capture One and it is in all probability a calibration issue. Your dealer should be able to deal with it, but I am not sure about all dealers being competent. (*)

I would suggest that you register your back with Phase One and get a support ticket.

I have been lucky with my P45+, zero issues. But I had problems with the local dealer, they never new about viewfinder masks…

Best Regards
Erik

(*) I feel that Phase One's support model is seriously flawed. They require you go trough a dealer. That may be good for the incompetent user, but an incompetent dealer may be a nightmare for a competent user.




I use Capture one.
yes I know that its CCD issue but I saw it already good and not visible at 800ISO and the color clouds? is that normal? the color clouds look always the same.
they have always the same pattern and they are always at the same place.
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 04:47:52 pm »

Hi,

The tiling should be handled by Capture One and it is in all probability a calibration issue. Your dealer should be able to deal with it, but I am not sure about all dealers being competent. (*)

I would suggest that you register your back with Phase One and get a support ticket.

I have been lucky with my P45+, zero issues. But I had problems with the local dealer, they never new about viewfinder masks…

Best Regards
Erik

(*) I feel that Phase One's support model is seriously flawed. They require you go trough a dealer. That may be good for the incompetent user, but an incompetent dealer may be a nightmare for a competent user.

Hi Erik,

I think in my case, the dealer is ok and phase one is incompetent. they wrote me ( in my first  support ticket, right after I bought it) that this is normal.
and my dealer was sending it back.but it came after calibration back like this. be sights, that they were repairing all logic boards.
Im real disappointed by the support of phase one. special when you buy a small "car".
By the way is there a secret tool in CO for that tilling issue? couldn't find any thing.

thank you
best regards
Sebastian
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Paul2660

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 05:11:09 pm »

Tiling is handled by a calibration file unique to the back.  Each back is calibrated and the file is stored in the back.   Applied to the raw file.  C1 relies on the data from the calibration file and it's apples automatically when you open the raw.   

This is different from a LCC file which you do have to manually apply in C1

Over time the back should be recalibrated some times the dealer can do this other times P1.

No 2 CCDs have the same response so some are noisier than others.   The P65 at 800 especially if pushed can look pretty harsh.

Paul Caldwell
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2017, 05:50:21 pm »

Tiling is handled by a calibration file unique to the back.  Each back is calibrated and the file is stored in the back.   Applied to the raw file.  C1 relies on the data from the calibration file and it's apples automatically when you open the raw.   

This is different from a LCC file which you do have to manually apply in C1

Over time the back should be recalibrated some times the dealer can do this other times P1.

No 2 CCDs have the same response so some are noisier than others.   The P65 at 800 especially if pushed can look pretty harsh.

Paul Caldwell

Hi Paul,

thanks for the reply.
thank you for the technical detail.
But I think, I should not do it every two months.
this would be very odd.

thanks

Sebastian

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2017, 03:51:05 pm »

Hi,

I would agree on that. Paul says that my P45+ is one of the better ones but I seldom push it very hard and I am essentially a "camera on tripod, base ISO and cable release" kind of shooter.

If you want to live a good life, without issues, you could consider the new CMOS backs or simply ditching MFD for mainstream cameras from Canon, Nikon or Sony using industry standard CMOS devices from Sony (*). Pentax is a minor actor, but they do a lot of good stuff!

Best regards
Erik

(*) Canon makes their own sensors.




Hi Paul,

thanks for the reply.
thank you for the technical detail.
But I think, I should not do it every two months.
this would be very odd.

thanks

Sebastian
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Erik Kaffehr
 

drevil

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2017, 07:02:04 pm »

I think i would agree with phase one, for an iso800 image, it looks pretty normal
my p45+ at iso 800 looks worse, thats simply what you get at iso 800.

those backs may offer such "high" sensitivity, but seriously, who ever uses it except extrem emergency of for fun.
medium format cameras belong on a tripod, with lowest iso possible, 99% of the time, esp. for landscape photography.

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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2017, 10:00:42 am »

Just curious... how well does the back work at lowest ISO ?  Is everything fine?
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2017, 10:16:23 am »

Just curious... how well does the back work at lowest ISO ?  Is everything fine?

At lowest iso everything is ok but from 200iso the troubles are starting
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wellcome86

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2017, 10:22:59 am »

I think i would agree with phase one, for an iso800 image, it looks pretty normal
my p45+ at iso 800 looks worse, thats simply what you get at iso 800.

those backs may offer such "high" sensitivity, but seriously, who ever uses it except extrem emergency of for fun.
medium format cameras belong on a tripod, with lowest iso possible, 99% of the time, esp. for landscape photography.

I understand that these backs are not the high Iso kings. But as you have seen on the grey curtain at the picture that I have posted, the curtain is everything else than a grey curtain. it has big magenta and green color - "clouds". Yes it can be noisy, grainy as hell, but I thing not colored and tinted with color splashes. I have seen it better on other backs. and the sensor tiling also appears in sensor + mode

by the way, the dealer was taking the back and hopefully sending it to PO
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P65+ Noie issue @ 800 ISO please help
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2017, 10:34:34 am »

Hi,

High exposure at base ISO just covers up the weakness of the sensor in the shadows.

Let's assume a dramatic sky over dark mountain or forrest. I would expose for the highlights in the sky, but than I may need to lift the shadows.

In the enclosed image the sky is fully protected and the face of the rower is 2-3 stops below normal exposure on my P45+. This corresponds to say 200-400 ISO. I would say that darks are still fully usable.

Best regards
Erik



I think i would agree with phase one, for an iso800 image, it looks pretty normal
my p45+ at iso 800 looks worse, thats simply what you get at iso 800.

those backs may offer such "high" sensitivity, but seriously, who ever uses it except extrem emergency of for fun.
medium format cameras belong on a tripod, with lowest iso possible, 99% of the time, esp. for landscape photography.
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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