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Author Topic: Mirrorless camera suggestions  (Read 4037 times)

LOUSANTELLO

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Mirrorless camera suggestions
« on: January 08, 2017, 10:04:39 PM »

I already own a Canon 1DX for speed and I just bought a 5D mark iv after seeing a huge comparison difference forcing me to sell off my 5D mark iii.  I had the opportunity to side by side the mark iv with the 5DSR for a whole weekend and found the 5DSR what looked like a "softer picture than the mark iv.  I am not always a tripod user and alot of people are blaming the 5DSR issues with mirror vibration, which a tripod won't matter.  Based on that, I am also considering a mirrorless for portability.  I was not impressed with the Sony's especially after finding out that alot of the features are destroyed using the Canon lenses on it.  What is your take on mirrorless cameras?  Has anybody actually compared them to some of the higher end DSLR's?  Are there any out there that can handle my Canon glass that's worth looking at?  Thank you
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David Sutton

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 10:53:16 PM »

I've never liked the idea of using another brand of lens on a body not designed for it, unless it's a specialist area like using a vintage lens for specialist effects. There always seem to be trade-offs that make the whole thing less than optimal.
When I switched to Fuji from Canon I was determined to make the new system work and burned my bridges. Scary.
Have you explored all the possibilities to make the Canon work? There are always things we can do to work on our technique.
With the 5D2 mirror lock up was a must at lower shutter speeds, even if that meant using the rear screen hand held. At shutter speeds of around a second the shutter slamming open would cause blur. I used to carry a two kg beanbag and rest it on the camera and lens for critical sharpness.
You can do a lot with a good monopod. For bird photography I used to use a Manfrotto 685 with the beanbag as well. Very flexible fast system, but you have to tighten all the screws before using.
And if you are not printing over 17 inches wide I wouldn't stress too much over micro-detail.
David
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rdonson

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 11:47:05 PM »

I have Canon gear including a 7D for sports and a bunch of lenses.  A couple of years ago I bought the Fuji X-T1 for a smaller, lighter camera for walkabouts.  I was delighted by the X-T1 and the Canon gear was relegated to sports and long lenses.  I did shoot some triathlons with the X-T1 but the horse races required the 7D.

I bought the X-T2 with a vertical battery grip.  I now find with the 24MP sensor and high frame rates with the VBG I haven't touched my Canon since.  I've photographed high school football with the X-T2 and the 100-400 Fuji lens.  I wish Fuji offered a faster long lens but I was able to get the job done.  For landscapes and street I find the X-T2 a joy. Every iteration of these cameras feel like a major leap. 

My Canon gear is on the block.

I have a friend who has a very significant investment with Canon lenses.  He bought a Sony A7R2 and an adapter for his Canon glass.  While limited to mostly manual focus he's done some brilliant landscape and documentary photography with long lenses and a TS. 

It's hard to think that in 5 years there will be all that many DSLRs on the market.
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 08:50:34 AM »

I already own a Canon 1DX for speed and I just bought a 5D mark iv after seeing a huge comparison difference forcing me to sell off my 5D mark iii.  I had the opportunity to side by side the mark iv with the 5DSR for a whole weekend and found the 5DSR what looked like a "softer picture than the mark iv.  I am not always a tripod user and alot of people are blaming the 5DSR issues with mirror vibration, which a tripod won't matter.  Based on that, I am also considering a mirrorless for portability.  I was not impressed with the Sony's especially after finding out that alot of the features are destroyed using the Canon lenses on it.  What is your take on mirrorless cameras?  Has anybody actually compared them to some of the higher end DSLR's?  Are there any out there that can handle my Canon glass that's worth looking at?  Thank you

If you want mirrorless and still want to use your Canon lenses, Sony is your best bet. What features that are important to you are disabled while using Canon lenses on a Sony body?
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 09:13:22 AM »

I still own a canon system.  I have used Sony, Fuji, and Olympus/Panasonic.  I ended up with Olympus taking over as my main system.  I wanted Fuji to work very much.  I still carry a bayer sensor x100 everywhere.  I just couldn't live with the xtrans.  I love the Fuji primes. 

If you do try a smaller system, there is some adjustment.  I find if you do use out of system lenses, make sure you use a speed booster from metabones.  Quality will suffer other wise.  At least in my experience.  It also starts feeling silly to use large slr lenses on such small bodies.  A lot of people are using the canon shift lenses on mirror less because there aren't any other practical solutions for perspective control yet.  I've gotten excellent results with the 17mm tse.  The 70-200 also gives excellent results adapted.  The same system lens from Olympus focuses faster, is better quality still, and doesn't need an adapter.  I have all the canon glass, but I still end up using the dedicated system lenses. 

I also find that I should till need the same discipline if I expect the same results.  Sturdy & quality tripod, timer, optimal exposure, etc...  Smaller cameras don't mean we can be slack on our skills unfortunately.

Depending on the kind of images you make, you will be surprised how far mirrorless systems have come.  The new e-m1 mk2 at 20mp really makes the fight pretty even between it and 24mp DSLRs.  I don't look at the high ISO area because I rarely make critical work at high ISO.  And when I do, there is not a camera out there whose ISO 3200 or 6400 isn't good enough any more.

The high resolution cameras are great, but I find their benefit only useful in scenarios where I need that feature as a tool.  Otherwise the extra work to obtain perfect results and the extra file size can become a burden.  For me an hdr multirow pano from a 5dr would be quite a bit larger that it would have from a 16mp mirrorless.  Printed size is still limited to my wall space so the higher res benefit is lost.  Guess which files I prefer.  The benefits I do get from the smaller cameras is higher than the benefits I receive from a little extra resolution and file size.  Same reason my medium format gear stays home unless a client is paying for it.  It's nice, but I can get the same and better results with a lot less work on a smaller system.  And I can get shots I just can't get with larger equipment. 

I highly recommend renting a system who's lenses appeal to you and give it try for a week or two.  Handling and approach will be different from the canons.  Especially with information in the evf about exposure.  Seeing a final image live is nice.
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David Sutton

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 03:52:15 PM »

Handling and approach will be different from the canons.  Especially with information in the evf about exposure.  Seeing a final image live is nice.

An under-rated advantage of mirrorless.
The weight decrease is not to be sniffed at, my airline backpack with Fuji is half the weight of the equivalent Canon, but what-you-see-is-what-you-get has changed my approach.
I hardly use the histogram now. In the viewfinder I can see how much detail is in the highlights and expose accordingly (almost the opposite of expose-to-the-right). With these sensors you can raise the shadow detail in post by an amazing amount before the appearance of noise.
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scyth

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 05:23:45 PM »

I was not impressed with the Sony's especially after finding out that alot of the features are destroyed using the Canon lenses on it.

a lot means what exactly ?
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mecrox

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 05:36:32 PM »

I use mirrorless (Olympus) and like it but I would suggest some careful research and trying out via renting and the like. It's not just that there are a plethora of technical details about what works with what and how or to what extent, which there are if someone is planning on using offbrand lenses with an adapter. It's also that a mirrorless camera alters the way in which I use a camera and relate to taking images - my experience, anyway, coming from a Pentax DSLR. An EVF is not the same as an OVF. It may be better or worse, according to taste, but the experience different. In other words, there may be unexpected "usage issues" here far beyond the technical ones. Everyone is different and the important thing for me is simply to get on with the camera and its lenses.
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jerryrock

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 06:14:19 PM »

Why not try the Canon EOS M5? With the adapter it can use all of your EF and EF-S Canon lenses.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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LOUSANTELLO

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 08:34:52 PM »

You normally don't hear about the Canon when you hear mirrorless.  As far as glass, I already own all the prime glass Canon has to offer all the way thru the 300mm 2.8, which was the reason I was hoping to play around with a mirrorless and use my glass.  I've hears good things about the Sony and even watched some video reviews.  The eye focus tracking looked awesome, unfortunately that feature goes away as soon as you use a metabones and Canon lenses.  I've also heard that whatever weight you save in the camera, you will need in Batteries. LOL   I put the Sony in my hand and it really was not for me.  I didn't care for the button layout.  I never even gave it a chance as far as comparing picture quality.  I previously owned a Hasselblad HD4D-31 and sold it about 16 months ago.  It was really sharp, but I never used it because of its bulk.  When I sold it, I had sellers remorse and 30 days later I bought a Mamiya 645/credo 40 along with an assortment of lenses.  I actually like this much better, but again, I find myself not using it because of the bulk.  That's the one for sale on the forum right now.  I was really hoping I would like the 5DSR and I was not impressed at all.  The mark iv was a much sharper picture even with high shutter speeds.  I was not going to buy a camera that forces me to a tripod or that sensitive.  So, for now, I have my speed with the 1DX, which I use in low light at my daughters dance activities and the Mark iv where I want a sharper photo and not need the speed,,,,,,,but I keep hearing about these mirrorless and always wonder how good they are.  If I can't zoom in and see sharpness in the eye, I don't want it.I am in the Audio Video business and picture quality is crucial.  I don't really care about shooting video.  I have a phone for that when I need it.  :)
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 08:04:54 AM »

I still have my 1D Mark IV bodies on the off chance I need to shoot some sports action, and a 5Ds body which works just fine on a tripod for landscape and architecture work. However, my main system is Fuji for 95% of my assignments. Image quality is outstanding, and the size and weight advantage is significant (especially after thirty+ years of a heavy bag over one shoulder).

Mirrorless cameras excel at some things and not others. I shoot mostly candid people, portraits, news, and events, and the Fuji works well with that type of work.
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 09:18:37 AM »

Having a full range of canon lenses is nice... I do have many myself... I can honestly say that you would be surprised at how good the mirrorless lenses are.  Lenses for smaller formats have to be better on average to hold up and provide the same quality as a larger format.  Their price tag and size are deceiving.  And clever in-camera corrections actually work and fairly transparently.  This means you actually get some pretty darn good lenses.  My 12-40mm F/2.8 Olympus pro blows away the Canon 24-105 I was using, and easily matches up or exceeds their other lenses in similar range.  The small primes, 45, 12, 25, 60, and 75 are shockingly good.  In fact they exhibit less issues than the canon equivalents in my experience.  I have an adapter for my canon lenses... That was my original idea as well.  Just use what I have.  The problem was a lens the fraction of the size that was offering me better image quality just made more sense.  I can fit 3 Olympus primes in my vest pocket (actually in EACH pocket) and forget they are there.  I actually preferred m43 because of the in body stabilization as well as the smaller lens sizes.  It is a different carry experience, and the smaller equipment kind of draws you in to your subject more I feel.  I hear you with the medium format stuff.  Its amazing...but there is always a tank between you and your subject. 
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Tony
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Morris Taub

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 12:10:03 PM »

Unless you want another system, I'd agree with Jerry's advice. Check out canon's own M5. You may hate it. But it has some lenses built for it. You can get an adapter from canon so you can use all of canon's lenses. If i had tons of canon lenses it's what my first step would be. It seems ok on paper, if a little expensive. But beats having to familiarize yourself with a whole new system and the investment in glass.

If nikon had the equivalent I would have checked it out. Stay with familiar image processing. Familiar lenses. But they don't. So back in May 2016 I started an experiment with olympus m5v2 and some prime lenses. Good photographic tools. Taking a while to learn the ins/outs of body. Familiarize myself with how the lenses behave. Overall I'm content.

good luck with your decision...
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bcooter

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 02:20:09 PM »

I use mirrorless (Olympus) and like it but I would suggest some careful research and trying out via renting and the like. It's not just that there are a plethora of technical details about what works with what and how or to what extent, which there are if someone is planning on using offbrand lenses with an adapter. It's also that a mirrorless camera alters the way in which I use a camera and relate to taking images - my experience, anyway, coming from a Pentax DSLR. An EVF is not the same as an OVF. It may be better or worse, according to taste, but the experience different. In other words, there may be unexpected "usage issues" here far beyond the technical ones. Everyone is different and the important thing for me is simply to get on with the camera and its lenses.


This is the best advice I've seen on moving from ovf to evf.   It takes time to get used to it, at least for me.   I also have olympus em-5 and em1 first versions of both.   Like others have said I strongly suggest using the makers lenses rather than third part, just because there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes, either in the camera or processor that corrects some lens flaws.   I've also found that most of the mirrorless cameras don't do continuous focus well, at least nothing like a 1dx or Nikon D3/4.   

It's funny, that at first I find the olympus' viewfinder a while to get used to, then I stop thinking about it and just shoot.   Later when I go back to an ovf I have the same experience, expecting the viewfinder to change as I change exposure.   

My only wish for the 4/3 system is higher useable iso and faster zooms (though I know they would be big), so I use oly micro 4/3 primes which are fast and small. 

IMO

BC

bcooter

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 01:43:31 AM »



OMD em1-window light in studio.

BC

David Sutton

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 02:59:01 PM »


OMD em1-window light in studio.

BC
Completely off topic. What wonderful lighting BC. I keep coming back to look at it.
David
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 08:55:53 PM »

I hardly use the histogram now. In the viewfinder I can see how much detail is in the highlights and expose accordingly (almost the opposite of expose-to-the-right). With these sensors you can raise the shadow detail in post by an amazing amount before the appearance of noise.

But that is not the opposite of ETTR, that is precisely ETTR David, expose as much as possible while preserving the highlights, and expect little noise when lifting the shadows (if needed) in pp thanks to latest sensor's DR.

I agree the WYSIWYG approach using the EVF provides a fantastic new user experience, specially for those like me who never managed to completely feel comfortable with light metering.

Highlight clipping warning is far more powerful and intuitive than the histogram since it provides spatial information on exposure, which the histogram lacks.

Shame on Canikon insisting on iterating over their +50 year old DSLR paradigma.

Regards
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:59:48 PM by Guillermo Luijk »
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 08:53:59 AM »

Yes, this works great. I have my evf set to show me as minimal info as possible.  Just my exposure settings...but I also have it set to show "clipping" of highlights.  The Olympus turns the highlights to a bright orange to designate clipped.  (no way to confuse them with scene colors)  Through testing I found I can push my exposure three "clicks" (or one stop) into the orange before anything is actually clipped.  This way I can get the maximum exposure I need for a scene instantly without even checking the image playback.  Even if you have solid exposure skills... you can set the exposure as you would...and then push a bit more based on this system and then bring it back down in post production.  You will actually have more definition and reduced shadow noise overall.  It really works.  Doing this on DSLRs was always a bracketing effort.

But that is not the opposite of ETTR, that is precisely ETTR David, expose as much as possible while preserving the highlights, and expect little noise when lifting the shadows (if needed) in pp thanks to latest sensor's DR.

I agree the WYSIWYG approach using the EVF provides a fantastic new user experience, specially for those like me who never managed to completely feel comfortable with light metering.

Highlight clipping warning is far more powerful and intuitive than the histogram since it provides spatial information on exposure, which the histogram lacks.

Shame on Canikon insisting on iterating over their +50 year old DSLR paradigma.

Regards
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Tony
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mecrox

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 11:25:48 AM »

Yes, this works great. I have my evf set to show me as minimal info as possible.  Just my exposure settings...but I also have it set to show "clipping" of highlights.  The Olympus turns the highlights to a bright orange to designate clipped.  (no way to confuse them with scene colors)  Through testing I found I can push my exposure three "clicks" (or one stop) into the orange before anything is actually clipped.  This way I can get the maximum exposure I need for a scene instantly without even checking the image playback.  Even if you have solid exposure skills... you can set the exposure as you would...and then push a bit more based on this system and then bring it back down in post production.  You will actually have more definition and reduced shadow noise overall.  It really works.  Doing this on DSLRs was always a bracketing effort.

Yes, this is just what I do though I don't go as far as three clicks over, more usually one or two. Also a useful way of checking that specular highlights which will blow anyway aren't skewing the camera's metering. I find the EVF's zoom feature useful when using manual focus. It's possible to be pretty sure and precise about what the camera is focused on thanks to the focus-peaking system. Overall a good EVF is very useful but it does need to be a good one. Some of the earlier efforts were dire and if I were considering a new camera I'd take a very close look at its EVF quality first. I think my keeper rate has improved with mirrorless partly because I have fewer poor exposures than I had with a DSLR, good though it was.
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bcooter

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Re: Mirrorless camera suggestions
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 05:20:07 PM »

Completely off topic. What wonderful lighting BC. I keep coming back to look at it.
David

Thank you David.

BC
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