What is up with Leica?

[JoeKitchen]

Hi Joe,

You know, this is just BS!

If an amateur looses images is just as bad as pro. That person may never go to that place again.

Amateurs take pictures for their love of imaging, but don't ever believe that those pictures matter less to amateurs than to professionals!

Right, loosing a customer is bad for your business. Memories lost may not have a business value, but be sure they cause pain for the amateur.

Amateurs don't have the budget you are accustomed to, but they still care a lot!

Best regards
Erik

Erik, you're failing to actually try and comprehend what it was that I was saying, and instead, allowing your emotions to take over! 

I was not saying amateurs do not deserve service as good as a pro especially if they pay for it.  But less, much less, amateurs are concerned about receiving the same quality of service that a professional needs.  Therefore, companies that focus mainly on amateurs tend to focus, to a less extent, on service.  Hence, since Leica was mainly a consumer company, I am not surprised their service is less then spectacular. 

Now if you have a problem with this, buy somewhere else, just like any professional would do. 

[JoeKitchen]

I agree! Well obviously the buyer is irrelevant, and all buyers must get a good service and a camera that works as it should, but if you need a camera day in and day out to do your job, to pay your mortgage, to put food on the table, and you can't do your job because the shitty plastic gear in it broke then you are screwed, right? There is a lot at stake for a person who relies on their equipment to do their job. And some of that is impossible to repair should you lose it; Your reputation, your career, your livelihood. There is zero room for this sort of error in such a highly competitive and fragile business. That is the only point being made here and the camera is marketed at these people. But sure, no matter who buys the camera they still deserve the same product and service.

Said a little better here. 

[william]

Professionals have a backup camera/lenses and makes sure they have a workflow that backups all images all the time. That's why they're professionals. Everything breaks down sooner or later, and it's your job to make sure that when that happens you are prepared.

Well, yes, but that's somewhat beside the point.  Back when I earned my primary income from photography, I did always have a backup with me on site.  However: There's a huge difference between having a backup on the *off chance* that something will break versus needing a backup because something is so unreliable that it has *a great likelihood* of breaking in such a way to make the job un-doable.  In the former scenario, you likely do what I used to: take a crappy backup camera with you and a lens or two for that camera just as insurance, not because you're assuming you'll actually need to use them; in the latter, you'd want to plan to take an entire second Leica S kit because the failure rate is so high and the service so poor. Needing to have a second entire kit on hand eats into your profit margin sufficiently that (1) you go out of business or (2) you start asking yourself why you're using such an unreliable system in the first place.  #2 is what people here are saying; that's all.

Analogy: If you were self-employed as a long-haul truck driver, you'd carry a toolkit, jumper cables, spare tires, and the like: You wouldn't carry an entire extra truck with you because you were concerned that the truck you paid tens of thousands of dollars for would stop working entirely.

[Bo_Dez]

Professionals have a backup camera/lenses and makes sure they have a workflow that backups all images all the time. That's why they're professionals. Everything breaks down sooner or later, and it's your job to make sure that when that happens you are prepared.

Sure, things go wrong. I have everything backed up. But when your $85K system is with you for 2 months in the year then you've got a problem. When your equipment comes back months later, only to need to be returned shortly after, you've got a problem. When you need to go buy a backup for your backup, your accountant points out that your career is no longer financially feasible and you've got a problem. When your system costs $85K, it becomes a problem to spend another $85K on unnecessarily necessary backups. Sure, you can have a cheapy, but you're not booked by a high end client for that, the reason you spend so much on a system is because it does a certain thing, makes pictures that look a certain way, when you don't deliver what your client was booking you for they go away and they don't come back. When your shoot goes tits up because your $85K system has shat itself it tends to mess your day up even when you have a backup. And then your next week trying to deal with Leica service. Days that you don't get back and days that costs you money when you are self employed. If your work computer failed and your employer asked you to fix it, or orgainse fixing it, but told you they weren't going to pay your for those days I'm sure you'd have a problem with it too. When the threat of it happening is there every time you turn your $85K system on, it adds to the stress of the shoot and some shoots are so fast paced you don't even have time to deal with failures. I could go on but...see this is what it does to you. You get angry. Over a damn camera.

[DezFoto]

I've been shooting Leica M for several years now and granted I have very limited experience with their S lineup but if their support for the M system is any indication, they are just not geared towards professionals at all anymore. I had a lens that took 6 months to be serviced, which was also my go-to lens and they had no loaner for me because all their loaners 50mm Summilux lenses were out to camera reviewers (yes, really). After about 4 months of me complaining every week, the Leica Store in Los Angeles finally loaned me their in-store demo copy (I think just to make me go away). The people in the store were great but turn-around time and communication from the repair facility in NJ is atrocious.

More recently I wanted to get my M body calibrated (under warranty) and the staff of the store suggested I pay to go to a local indie service shop because they estimated it would be several weeks and possibly months before NJ would get to it! I was dumbfounded.

The lesson I think is this: if you invest in Leica gear, DO NOT expect to get the same level of professional support you would get from Hasselblad or Phase One for the same money. It's a shame, since the S system is really impressive but I just can't afford to be without gear for that long, which is why I'm sticking with my H2+Phase Back setup for the time being.

[bcooter]

Erik, you're failing to actually try and comprehend what it was that I was saying, and instead, allowing your emotions to take over! 

I was not saying amateurs do not deserve service as good as a pro especially if they pay for it.  But less, much less, amateurs are concerned about receiving the same quality of service that a professional needs.  Therefore, companies that focus mainly on amateurs tend to focus, to a less extent, on service.  Hence, since Leica was mainly a consumer company, I am not surprised their service is less then spectacular. 

Now if you have a problem with this, buy somewhere else, just like any professional would do.

I believe everything that is said here about the S lenses and Leica service, though I use contax lenses on my S2 and never had an issue. 

I also have the Leica 120 Macro and zero issues also and though I don't use the S2 the way I use other cameras, I do shoot a lot of frames with it and the 120 so maybe I've been lucky.

I also love the dng file that works in about any post production suite and the lemo connectors that are rock solid.  Also the fact I can put on H or Contax lenses makes for a versatile system.

I'll use the S2 next week and I love the camera, but Leica is a strange company.   I was at the Mayfair store in London before I bought the S2 and they treated me like Royalty, though Steve Hendrix hooked me up with a great deal on an S2 and the 120 and two contax adapters so I went with Steve.

The Mayfair guy called me and asked when I was buying and I explained I had purchased and why and you'd think I called his mum a bad name, cause he practically hung up on me.

Leica service is dead slow early with my m8 and my 90mm it wouldn't focus with accuracy so I sent it in and it took about 3 months, it came back same issue exactly the same so I sent it back and a month later got it and it worked.

Leica sells cameras as professional equipment and they need the follow up to make it right. 

But Canon can be frustrating also.  CPS is fast, but I let my membership lapse, just didn't think about it during a busy time and last month had a small issue with a 1dx and signing up again is painful. 

It took 4 phone calls and was told I needed all the serial numbers of the "qualified" equipment to reach a certain amount of points and have to drive to the Hollywood CPS to apply.   The last guy I talked to was knowledgeable and trying to help but as he said "rules are rules".   

Anyway I love Leica cameras and yes some people find them glitchy, but their design philosophy and feel is awesome, plus the look of the file is pretty amazing to me. Next weeks project will be shot with the S2 and though I have backups I don't think I'll need em".   (knock on wood)

Given that, reading this lens gear thing has saved me some money.  I was going to buy three more Leica lenses, but will just stay with what I have.

In regards to this amateur vs. pro discussion, some people get their knickers in a twist.  I like Eric but he's always sensitive about this and I'm sure I'll catch heat just by mentioning it.  That's why I don't do twitter.  And let's be real.  If it's memories 99% of whatever your shooting at a family get together has been covered by 200 mobile phone snaps.

I know shooting for yourself is important to the photographer, but when you've dropped 100 large on a project and you have a room full of people counting on you, there is a monetary difference and you don't just lose the memories, you loose a lot more than that and once again that's not a knock on a non pro.

But nothing worries a client like a camera problem.   They assume (and rightfully so) that the last problem a professional photographer should have would be with a camera.

IMO

BC

[JV]

I have 5 Leica bodies and so far have not had any issue with them.

I did experience the AF failure once for one of my two S lenses.  Leica repaired free of charge but it took 2 months which is too long...

To the OP, this topic has already been discussed ad nauseam on the Leica and GetDPI forums...

Not sure what you want to achieve by also opening the exact same discussion here...

[fotagf8]

Come on now, no one said that, period! 

Why do people get so annoyed so easily now a days when spending a little more time to fully comprehend the text would put any offense to rest? 

I suggest that before you lecture me, you read your post, which states:  "So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it.  If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal.  Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it."

You said service is not a big deal for hobbyists and amateurs because they don't need it.  Not a big deal if their cameras go down.  Apparently only photographs made for money matter. 

[douglevy]

I've had a ton of stuff break in the last few weeks (was bound to happen, I shot 200,000 photos in 2016). I have no Leica input, but just wanted to say that (and I've been a member for years), NPS is largely a joke. I've had poor experiences with repairs on my Elinchroms, Nikons and my original H1 (direct from Hasselblad in NJ/Sweden) and know a H5D-50c shooter who was without his camera for months this fall with no updates. Compared with recent issues with my Credo 40 that also broke, and Capture Integration couldn't have been better in getting me a loaner, and eventually an upgrade to a Credo 60.

-Doug

[Stephen Scharf]

This is no way to treat customers, whether they are professionals or not. I read on another blog a photography business owner, now an a college photography instructor, sent in a Digital M for repair and it took Leica an entire year to repair it. In the meantime, there was no correspondence from Leica to her about the status of her repair.

When I shot a lot of pro racing and was a member of CPS, Canon would turn around a repair in three days flat. Often times, they would not charge for parts, just service labor. First class support.

[JoeKitchen]

I suggest that before you lecture me, you read your post, which states:  "So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it.  If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal.  Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it."

You said service is not a big deal for hobbyists and amateurs because they don't need it.  Not a big deal if their cameras go down.  Apparently only photographs made for money matter.

My God!  Whether you realize it or not, you're turning my words into a straw man, which is what is annoying me so much.  I never intended to knock a non-pro, which is what you are making me out to do. 

Anyway, if your camera goes down on a personal project, regardless if you are a hobbyist or a pro just out having fun, it sucks, but it is not nearly as bad, or at the same level, as it happening on a paid shoot with a room full of people looking at you.  This is absolutely true, but it is not the equivalent as saying photographs are less important to an amateur, what you are trying to turn my words into (hence a straw man). 

Lets say hobbyists really don't want service nearly as much as a professional, therefore consumer companies don't focus on it as much. 

In any other industry, everyone would agree.  I have a client who is a high end cabinet manufacturer.  In his facility, the first thing you will see is a $30K cabinet saw, the kind where the motor and table are separate, both bolted to their own concrete pad, 10 HP motor, took two days to install it, and service is included throughout the warranty.  Now, of course if a hobbyist woodworker wanted to purchase it, I would expect the same level of service for him as my client.  But if that saw breaks down for the hobbyist working on his latest project it is very different then it breaking down for my client who has it running for two shifts a day, 5 days a week and a huge backlog of things that need to get built. 

[fotagf8]

Lets say hobbyists really don't want service nearly as much as a professional, therefore consumer companies don't focus on it as much. 

I won't get into your choice of words and phrases, and will assume you meant no offense.  Having said that, I will offer a number of observations

In the camera market, calling a camera "professional" does not mean that people who make their living from photography are the exclusive buyers.  I just upgraded my Olympus OMD 1, Mark I to the II.  I bought two lenses designated "Pro" when I ordered the camera.  I already had two labeled "Pro."  My Canon lenses are in their "Pro" line.  I use a Canon Pro-1000 printer (I'd use larger floor model, but space is an issue).  I also use Eizo monitors, and RAID backup systems.   I suspect I am not all that unusual. To me, a "Pro" designation carries the implication that the product is made of high quality components and is cutting edge design.   

I can't say for sure, but I have heard a number of times that those who make their living from photography "owe" us "amateurs" a debt of gratitude.  What I have been told is that we provide the volume that speeds develop of professional products with new features and better specs.

As for service, it is critical.  Leica is opening up boutique stores around the world.  The stores are beautifully fixtured, but at the end of the day I would prefer they put that money into building a U.S. repair operation that rivals Canon's.  My experience with Canon is a 7-business day turn around.  Like it or not, equipment breaks, particularly the high-end gear.  People should not have to wait 6 months to get a camera repaired, which has happened with Leica. 

Right now, many people are debating whether to go the Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji camera route.  Each camera had its distinct pluses and minuses.  If I decide to purchase one of those cameras, a huge factor will be service.  I have no experience with Fuji, so I don't know how they handle repairs, but for me, the biggest problem/concern with the X1D delay is that this is possibly a sign that this company does not have its act together, including repair service.  If it can't get the cameras out the door for sale, will it be able to any better with repairs?  Fuji may not be as storied as Hasselblad, but if their repair service is on par with Canon's, I would be inclined to go with the Fuji.

As for wanting service:  Phase One has effectively let me make that choice with their Leaf backs.  No, I don't have a big fee shoot scheduled for Vogue next week, so I don't need the extra cost that comes with the Phase One loaner program anywhere in the world on a number of hours notice--at least that is how I recall how it works.  So I went with the Leaf.  But what I do want is to send my camera in for repair and get it back within a reasonable amount of time.

[cgarnerhome]

Interesting discussion.  Let’s agree we all want good service.  I for one, choose my equipment based on performance and service.  That includes buying from a dealer that will support me.  Digital Transitions has been extremely supportive for my Phase system and Allen’s Camera has been very supportive for my Nikon which is my backup system.  Technically, I’m a hobbyist as I don’t make my living from photography even though I do exhibit my work as well as sell it.  I do expect a high quality of service and will not stay with a system that isn’t supported.  I had the S2 for a while but I did not care for the level of support I was getting.  I shot Canon for years and loved the support but the performance didn’t keep up with my expectations.  I travel to Japan in a couple of months for 2 week shoot.  If my camera breaks that’s a big cost in terms travel cost and time as I might not be able to get back there for a couple of years.  In the case of Japan, I will take the Phase One as the primary camera and take 2 Nikon bodies and a few lenses as backup - that's my insurance.  That’s a lot of expense but who said photography was inexpensive.

[Joe Towner]

Jack, bring it back in, Joe isn't writing a legal paper.  The notion of purchasing a product and getting that extra level of service is in other industries, not just cameras.  Pro level service & support are critical to some fields - broadcast, production, etc - and some consumers purchase products based on the idea that they'll get the same level service as a 'pro'.  Some companies do a better job, some fail at it regularly. 

Sony has issues because it can't service it's cameras to the same level Canon can, and Nikon has slipped (the whole selling of parts for third party repairs) in the last few years.  Leica service seems to be pretty slow, to the point where frustrations leave an owner one option, to b**ch online and hope for the best.  After sale service and support are part of what any consumer uses to judge their next purchase.

When people buy a 1Dx or a D5, they expect that they can shoot forever, and shy of dropping a camera into a pool, any service issue can be resolved within a week.  Medium Format cameras are at another level, and part of what makes a 'dealer cost' higher for both new & used is that dealer being able to support you if/when that camera fails.  There is a cost to this level of service, and Professionals know this, and happily/begrudgingly pay for it.

The issue is that these 'pro costs' are not compatible with this bargain or 'lowest price online' mentality.

[fotagf8]

Joe:

Not sure that we disagree on anything.  I said that I opted for the Leaf back rather than the Phase One because I didn't need (or wasn't willing to pay for the) the loaner on demand.  My experience with Leica has been mixed.  On occasion they have turned around a camera in four or five weeks, but in others it has been five to six months.  The M doesn't strike me as anymore complex than a Canon, although the rangefinder is probably tricky--my repairs, however, have been sensor replacements and the shutter button, not the rangefinder.

I have several Schneider lenses, which look to be very complex mechanisms  The gentleman at Precision Camera is fantastic and turns stuff around very quickly in my experience--although I do live in Chicago so I can drop stuff off.

[Vieri Bottazzini]

First of all, I think that reliability, warranty and service are fundamental for any kind of equipment, whether addressed to professional or amateur customers. Price is relatively important in this, IMO, meaning that for someone who can invest 100.000 US in a camera system his 100.000 US are as important as are 1.000 US for someone who can just invest 1.000 US in his. To me, both customers have exactly the same rights in this scenario.

Let's not forget that NO manufacturer is releasing faulty products on purpose, and that NO manufacturer enjoys the bad rap that this creates both online and in the "real world". I am sure Leica didn't purposely choose sensors that would corrode in a few years, nor to put AF motors that would break in their lenses. $.it happens to everyone in every field, the question is how manufacturers deal with it.

Leica had some serious problems with the timing of their service in the past, but it seems to me that they took notice and that the new Professional Service now in place for owners of the S and SL is a step in the right direction. Let's wait and see if they really turned the corner on this issue. By the way, back to the OP, it is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.

Putting things into perspective, trying to avoid generalisation and the unnecessary panic generated by online complaining and not forgetting that users without problems are very likely the majority and are generally silent, I can say that the S 007 is a very reliable camera that just works, and that there haven't been any "structural" problems reported so far (such as the sensor corrosion that plagued the previous generation of Leica sensors, or the like). Of course, a single camera can fail, but it's definitely not the norm for the S 007. More, the camera FW is getting regular updates, which is a sign of Leica's commitment to the system. The corrosion issue with older S cameras' CCD sensor has been acknowledged and free repairs have been offered, which if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution is a good enough sign of customer care and attention on Leica's part for me.

There definitely is a problem with the AF motor in Leica S lenses; Leica knows that and offered free repairs for everyone forever, which, again if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution, seems to me to be a good solution. Again, I am pretty sure that most S lenses out there didn't fail (yet, perhaps) and that most will perhaps never fail. Of course, perception is extremely important in this, and reported failures have a much stronger impact online than non-reported non-failures. Could Leica have addressed this faster and better? Definitely. Did they address it? Definitely. Could their implementation of the repair system have been done better? Possibly, but I can't know that, and honestly I am more interested in the future than in the past. As a S and SL user I'd like to hope that the new Professional Service will help improving matters, that faulty lenses will be repaired faster and permanently, and that Leica learned from the experience and worked accordingly when they designed their Professional Service.

Best,

Vieri

[Bo_Dez]

First of all, I think that reliability, warranty and service are fundamental for any kind of equipment, whether addressed to professional or amateur customers. Price is relatively important in this, IMO, meaning that for someone who can invest 100.000 US in a camera system his 100.000 US are as important as are 1.000 US for someone who can just invest 1.000 US in his. To me, both customers have exactly the same rights in this scenario.

Let's not forget that NO manufacturer is releasing faulty products on purpose, and that NO manufacturer enjoys the bad rap that this creates both online and in the "real world". I am sure Leica didn't purposely choose sensors that would corrode in a few years, nor to put AF motors that would break in their lenses. $.it happens to everyone in every field, the question is how manufacturers deal with it.

Leica had some serious problems with the timing of their service in the past, but it seems to me that they took notice and that the new Professional Service now in place for owners of the S and SL is a step in the right direction. Let's wait and see if they really turned the corner on this issue. By the way, back to the OP, it is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.

Putting things into perspective, trying to avoid generalisation and the unnecessary panic generated by online complaining and not forgetting that users without problems are very likely the majority and are generally silent, I can say that the S 007 is a very reliable camera that just works, and that there haven't been any "structural" problems reported so far (such as the sensor corrosion that plagued the previous generation of Leica sensors, or the like). Of course, a single camera can fail, but it's definitely not the norm for the S 007. More, the camera FW is getting regular updates, which is a sign of Leica's commitment to the system. The corrosion issue with older S cameras' CCD sensor has been acknowledged and free repairs have been offered, which if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution is a good enough sign of customer care and attention on Leica's part for me.

There definitely is a problem with the AF motor in Leica S lenses; Leica knows that and offered free repairs for everyone forever, which, again if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution, seems to me to be a good solution. Again, I am pretty sure that most S lenses out there didn't fail (yet, perhaps) and that most will perhaps never fail. Of course, perception is extremely important in this, and reported failures have a much stronger impact online than non-reported non-failures. Could Leica have addressed this faster and better? Definitely. Did they address it? Definitely. Could their implementation of the repair system have been done better? Possibly, but I can't know that, and honestly I am more interested in the future than in the past. As a S and SL user I'd like to hope that the new Professional Service will help improving matters, that faulty lenses will be repaired faster and permanently, and that Leica learned from the experience and worked accordingly when they designed their Professional Service.

Best,

Vieri

In summary: Leica Ambassador says very reliable and an interesting future. Leica owners report completely unreliable and are getting rid of them.

I don't want to hear lip service and optimism, i want to hear solutions and have this done with.

[Vieri Bottazzini]

In summary: Leica Ambassador says very reliable and an interesting future. Leica owners report completely unreliable and are getting rid of them.

I don't want to hear lip service and optimism, i want to hear solutions and have this done with.

?? Well, I guess you haven't read my post. I hope others will before posting back. Best,

Vieri

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

A lot of good points!

But, I may add some other points:

• Anyone can have a piece of equipment failing. In that case it matters a lot how it is handled.
• If someone has multiple technical issues with a system it indicates that there is a problem. If we say that failure ration is 1/100, the chance of a dual failure would be 0.00001.
• Leica seems to have a high dose of NIH (Not Invented Here) complex. Taking proven solutions is mostly preferable to developing new solutions. Leica seems to have a lot of problems no one else seems to have, like corroding sensors and inconsistent AF system on the S.
• Lloyd Chambers made a lot of noise about issue with AF on several Leica S cameras, including a system belonging to a client. If the system was reliable it would be most improbable that a single tester would encounter problems with 3-5 camera.
• Leica may have the attitude that if you have a problem we fix it. That worked fine with SAAB cars (a late Swedisch vendor of cars), but would not hold in times of Japanese lean production and Six Sigma, that essentially means that you are doing things right on first try.

Best regards
Erik

First of all, I think that reliability, warranty and service are fundamental for any kind of equipment, whether addressed to professional or amateur customers. Price is relatively important in this, IMO, meaning that for someone who can invest 100.000 US in a camera system his 100.000 US are as important as are 1.000 US for someone who can just invest 1.000 US in his. To me, both customers have exactly the same rights in this scenario.

Let's not forget that NO manufacturer is releasing faulty products on purpose, and that NO manufacturer enjoys the bad rap that this creates both online and in the "real world". I am sure Leica didn't purposely choose sensors that would corrode in a few years, nor to put AF motors that would break in their lenses. $.it happens to everyone in every field, the question is how manufacturers deal with it.

Leica had some serious problems with the timing of their service in the past, but it seems to me that they took notice and that the new Professional Service now in place for owners of the S and SL is a step in the right direction. Let's wait and see if they really turned the corner on this issue. By the way, back to the OP, it is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.

Putting things into perspective, trying to avoid generalisation and the unnecessary panic generated by online complaining and not forgetting that users without problems are very likely the majority and are generally silent, I can say that the S 007 is a very reliable camera that just works, and that there haven't been any "structural" problems reported so far (such as the sensor corrosion that plagued the previous generation of Leica sensors, or the like). Of course, a single camera can fail, but it's definitely not the norm for the S 007. More, the camera FW is getting regular updates, which is a sign of Leica's commitment to the system. The corrosion issue with older S cameras' CCD sensor has been acknowledged and free repairs have been offered, which if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution is a good enough sign of customer care and attention on Leica's part for me.

There definitely is a problem with the AF motor in Leica S lenses; Leica knows that and offered free repairs for everyone forever, which, again if implemented in a reasonable timeframe and with a permanent solution, seems to me to be a good solution. Again, I am pretty sure that most S lenses out there didn't fail (yet, perhaps) and that most will perhaps never fail. Of course, perception is extremely important in this, and reported failures have a much stronger impact online than non-reported non-failures. Could Leica have addressed this faster and better? Definitely. Did they address it? Definitely. Could their implementation of the repair system have been done better? Possibly, but I can't know that, and honestly I am more interested in the future than in the past. As a S and SL user I'd like to hope that the new Professional Service will help improving matters, that faulty lenses will be repaired faster and permanently, and that Leica learned from the experience and worked accordingly when they designed their Professional Service.

Best,

Vieri

[william]

It is obvious to me that if a lens spends more than one month in the mail to get to Leica, that is hardly Leica's fault, as are Customs problems and the like.

I'm the one who wrote that, not the OP.  In any event, if you read my full post, you'll see that my problem with Leica is not the customs delay -- which I'm well aware they have no control over -- but the utter lack of any proactive communication on their part and the lack of any response to my repeated requests to be provided with a loaner or a replacement camera in light of the expected several months delay *after* they get the camera from customs. And this is all notwithstanding the fact that their alleged new "professional service division" is now in place. 

This is why I said I can't in good conscience recommend the S system to a working pro at the moment.  The defects and failures, combined with their laissez faire attitude toward customer service, combined with the months long delays in actual repairs, is untenable for someone who depends upon a camera to run a business as their sole source of income.  I myself "can" be out of action for several months without it having the effect of ruining my business or rendering me unable to pay the rent; I don't like it, but at least I can, in theory, put up with it. 

Oh, and by the way: my last email to them was on December 27: still no reply whatsoever as of January 5.  (And please don't tell me about the lengthy European holidays: that just furthers the point that they're not in a position to provide a professional level of service.  I got a response from Phase One (well, from my dealer) within twelve hours of sending it, during their (and my) holiday vacation.  And that reinforces the point that Leica's centralized model of "send everything to Germany and deal directly with Germany" rather than a dealer network that is able to perform repairs and provide replacements is an untenable relationship for a working pro.)