What is up with Leica?

[Bo_Dez]

The S has diabolical reliability issues and still, everyone is being left in the dark. No permanent fix, just replace the defective part with another defective part which will soon break again, with months of waiting for repair times, some reported cases of 8 months for a repair turn around. This has been going on for a long time now, at least a year. People are left with a system they don't know if it will even work on shoot day and also one which has greatly diminished in value because of the issues.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60441-leica-007-warning-potential-buyers.html
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html

How can any company let it get to this? Let alone one with such high standing, heritage and abnormally premium prices. Surely this is grounds for class action law suit? This does not bode well for this company long term, their credibility and trustworthiness has all but evaporated.

[JoeKitchen]

They have diabolical reliability issues and still, everyone is being left in the dark. This has been going on for a long time now, at least a year. People are left with a system they don't know if it will even work on shoot day and also one which has greatly diminished in value because of the issues.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60441-leica-007-warning-potential-buyers.html
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html

How can any company let it get to this? Let alone one with such high standing, heritage and abnormally premium prices. Surely this is grounds for class action law suit? This does not bode well for this company long term, their credibility and trustworthiness has all but evaporated.

I dont shoot Leica but I have a friend that bought into the S system.  Like me, he is a professional, and last we spoke he was quite annoyed with the service. 

He loves the camera body, how it works and feels, and the files are great, but service is a weak point.  He had an issue with a lens under warranty, went to drop it off and they did not have a loaner to give him that was close to the focal length.  This was his go to lens. 

I think prior to the S system, Leica was mainly a high end consumer company with very few working professionals using the system for serious projects.  And those professionals I knew that had a Leica camera were using it as a backup and/or grab & go camera. 

So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it.  If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal.  Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it. 

Now with the S system being marketed towards professionals, Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market. 

Hopefully they improve. 

They also may be trying to handle too many things at once.  Them buying Sinar provides a great opportunity, but that could be diverting resources if they are trying to integrate/combine the systems too fast. 

[Manoli]

Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market. 

Was that not their focus at Photokina last year ?

Wetzlar, 20 July 2016: Leica Camera AG has announced that its presence this year at photokina 2016 in Cologne will be focused on professional photography and the needs of professional users ...

[Bo_Dez]

I dont shoot Leica but I have a friend that bought into the S system.  Like me, he is a professional, and last we spoke he was quite annoyed with the service. 

He loves the camera body, how it works and feels, and the files are great, but service is a weak point.  He had an issue with a lens under warranty, went to drop it off and they did not have a loaner to give him that was close to the focal length.  This was his go to lens. 

I think prior to the S system, Leica was mainly a high end consumer company with very few working professionals using the system for serious projects.  And those professionals I knew that had a Leica camera were using it as a backup and/or grab & go camera. 

So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it.  If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal.  Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it. 

Now with the S system being marketed towards professionals, Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market. 

Hopefully they improve. 

They also may be trying to handle too many things at once.  Them buying Sinar provides a great opportunity, but that could be diverting resources if they are trying to integrate/combine the systems too fast.

I think you might be surprised at how many professionals are using Leica.

Most of the main problem revolves around their failing lenses. They just have to make a permanent fix but they haven't a year (or more?) later.

You make a very good point about taking on too much.

[JoeKitchen]

Was that not their focus at Photokina last year ?

Implementation is much different, especially across an ocean. 

Remember, Rollie had great service in Europe, but horrible service in N. America, which hurt them immensely.  This is part of the reason why P1 and Hassy use a dealership model. 

[JoeKitchen]

I think you might be surprised at how many professionals are using Leica.

I would not!  The S system is great, and my comments about a lack of professionals using Leica's was directed to the time frame prior to the S being released. 

Yes, the S system is very attractive, but the problems with the lenses and their apertures and leaf shutters, which only present themselves after thorough use, are not being dealt with efficiently.  (This is what I have heard from a couple of users anyway.) 

[Bo_Dez]

I would not!  The S system is great, and my comments about a lack of professionals using Leica's was directed to the time frame prior to the S being released. 

Yes, the S system is very attractive, but the problems with the lenses and their apertures and leaf shutters, which only present themselves after thorough use, are not being dealt with efficiently.  (This is what I have heard from a couple of users anyway.)

Ah, I see. yes it has been more recent times that they've picked things up on this level of pro use and I agree with you that they've probably take on too much too.

But what is it going to take to get them to resolve this? It's been a year or more it's crazy. All the hard work they did on creating such a great system is down the toilet.

[william]

I have followed these issues closely, both at GetDpi and elsewhere:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258959-state-of-s/

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/248514-leica-s-lens-af-issue/

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266300-wtfs007-just-crapped-itself/

I have strong opinions and recent experience on this subject by way of contrast with another company.  My strong opinion is that Leica's quality control and, more importantly, customer service on the S system is completely unacceptable.  My recent experience is as follows:

I have both an S system and a Phase One system.  I love the S for its files, form factor, and lenses.  I have not had any lens failures, but given the many people who have reported lens failures, I'm always on edge.  I have, however, had an issue with an S body: specifically, my backup S006 was checked by a dealer and found to have sensor corrosion.  It was sent to Leica Germany in mid-november.  As of now -- early January -- there has been no word whatsoever on when I can expect it back.  It took over 4 weeks to get from the US through German customers and, as of Dec. 14, still had not even arrived at Leica.  No offer of a loaner in the meantime, although I asked Leica directly (not the dealer -- it's not his fault).  No offer of a replacement camera rather than waiting a gazillion years for mine to be repaired and returned, although I asked that too.  All I've received in response to my half dozen queries has basically been "please be patient; sorry for the inconvenience," and there's at least a week delay before I even get that kind of half-assed response.  If this is all their new "professional service division" plans to do, it's very little indeed.

Contrast that with another recent experience with my Phase One XF.  As XF owners know, the original style prism latch and battery door are problematic. They haven't caused me any big problems, but are of sufficient concern that I wanted to go ahead and get them fixed.  I emailed my dealer (Digital Transitions) immediately before the holidays and got a response in less than 12 hours.  They then offered to send me a loaner via priority shipping for me to use for the duration, and said that I should get mine back and repaired in a week to 10 days.  They moved so fast that I haven't even managed to send mine in for repair yet (i'll do it today).

Now: I do not earn my primary income from photography, so I suppose I can "afford" the expected several month downtime for my S006 to be repaired and returned to me (yes: *several months* according to my dealer based on his past experience).  But if I depended upon photography to make a living, there's no way I could do that.  Notwithstanding the quality of the S system, I could not in good conscience at this point recommend to any professional photographer that s/he invest in the S system.  Will portraits shot in natural light with the S007 and 100mm summicron at 2.0 look prettier than anything shot with my XF under similar conditions? Yep.  But that doesn't matter if (a) the S doesn't work and (b) you need it to work so you can put bread on the table.

Edit: re-reading the above makes it sound like I don't like the files from my XF system.  That's not the case: love them, in fact.  Just pointing out that the S007 and 100mm summicron files at wide aperture are indeed pretty and, when that look is called for, prettier than what I can do with the XF.  Which is why I have both.  Now if Phase provided a Leica lens (or Contax lens) adapter for the XF body as I've repeatedly suggested, I'd be extremely happy and would ditch the S body.  That wouldn't solve the problem that the S lenses that I'd use on the XF might at any moment crap out on me, but then I could at least divest myself from any further investments in S system bodies in the future. And, if I were a new buyer and such adapters were available, I wouldn't have bought the S body at all, purely for economic reasons.

[Bo_Dez]

Well said William, I agree about your sentiments with the 100 Summicron v Phase One. To me, nothing beats the look of the Leica S files but a camera that is never with you or is a mystery if it will work is absolutely useless to anyone, let alone someone who needs it to make a living, let alone, again, the huge initial outlay in the cost of a system and the lenses. It's madness.

The whole thing really is unacceptable, yet they sit there in silence and do nothing except give lip service and promises of "focussing on the professional" and new "professional unit" - that was half a year ago and still nothing changes. The only thing they are focussing on professionals with is a magnifying glass, in the sun. What will it take? Surely this is headed for a class action law suit?

[fotagf8]

This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive.  If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty.  It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera. 

[JoeKitchen]

This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive.  If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty.  It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.

Come on now, no one said that, period! 

Why do people get so annoyed so easily now a days when spending a little more time to fully comprehend the text would put any offense to rest? 

It is more like if I am a professional, I would not put up with a system that did not have exceptional service.  It's what I expect and need in order to work and make money. 

Now, of course, I would expect exceptional service to come at a price, and, if an amateur wanted to spend that same price, I would expect that amateur to receive the same service regardless.  If he did not, I would consider that to be a negative against the company. 

However, if someone bought another lower priced product and service was not up to par, that's on the purchaser, regardless of their status. 

The S system was marketed as a professional system with a professional's price point.  It should come with exceptional service (for anyone who buys it). 

[william]

This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive.  If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty.  It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.

No one here has said that...

[Manoli]

Implementation is much different, especially across an ocean. 

Remember, Rollie had great service in Europe, but horrible service in N. America, which hurt them immensely.  This is part of the reason why P1 and Hassy use a dealership model. 

Joe - I agree with you!
My earlier post was a caustic comment on Leica's pre-Photokina press release. [/insert-disgruntled-face].

[Manoli]

The S system was marketed as a professional system with a professional's price point.  It should come with exceptional service (for anyone who buys it). 

Leica tried that at launch - there clearly weren't enough takers or else the price wasn't attractive when compared to the competition. Today, the price may be, but the service/support is wanting and more importantly the S lenses though excellent may well be 'lacking' in the AF department. Something that, in a way is worse, 'cos it's not something that can be fixed by good service alone.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Joe,

You know, this is just BS!

If an amateur looses images is just as bad as pro. That person may never go to that place again.

Amateurs take pictures for their love of imaging, but don't ever believe that those pictures matter less to amateurs than to professionals!

Right, loosing a customer is bad for your business. Memories lost may not have a business value, but be sure they cause pain for the amateur.

Amateurs don't have the budget you are accustomed to, but they still care a lot!

Best regards
Erik

I dont shoot Leica but I have a friend that bought into the S system.  Like me, he is a professional, and last we spoke he was quite annoyed with the service. 

He loves the camera body, how it works and feels, and the files are great, but service is a weak point.  He had an issue with a lens under warranty, went to drop it off and they did not have a loaner to give him that was close to the focal length.  This was his go to lens. 

I think prior to the S system, Leica was mainly a high end consumer company with very few working professionals using the system for serious projects.  And those professionals I knew that had a Leica camera were using it as a backup and/or grab & go camera. 

So, really, service was never an issue they had to deal with since hobbyists and amateurs really don't need it.  If an hobbyist's camera goes down, not too much of a big deal.  Yes, it sucks, but he is not loosing money or looking bad because of it. 

Now with the S system being marketed towards professionals, Leica is coming to the realization of how important good service is for that market. 

Hopefully they improve. 

They also may be trying to handle too many things at once.  Them buying Sinar provides a great opportunity, but that could be diverting resources if they are trying to integrate/combine the systems too fast.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

They have a red dot…

Just to say, other companies may stink, too. But unless you run into a problem, world is just fine. I shoot Sony and Phase One P45+. My understanding is that Sony repairs are expensive and having repairs on the P45+ you need to go trough a dealer that costs you a lot.

Fortunately, I had near zero issues the 46 years I was shooting Minolta, Pentax 67, Sony and Hasselblad V with Phase one. So my world is just fine.

But, sooner our later something will break down and that is the time your will appreciate a professional service from Canon or Nikon at a reasonable fee.

Best regards
Erik

The S has diabolical reliability issues and still, everyone is being left in the dark. No permanent fix, just replace the defective part with another defective part which will soon break again, with months of waiting for repair times, some reported cases of 8 months for a repair turn around. This has been going on for a long time now, at least a year. People are left with a system they don't know if it will even work on shoot day and also one which has greatly diminished in value because of the issues.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60441-leica-007-warning-potential-buyers.html
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html

How can any company let it get to this? Let alone one with such high standing, heritage and abnormally premium prices. Surely this is grounds for class action law suit? This does not bode well for this company long term, their credibility and trustworthiness has all but evaporated.

[Bo_Dez]

This notion that professionals are entitled to better service than people who don't make their living through photography is nonsense and offensive.  If you buy something, you are entitled to a product that performs according to specs, and when it doesn't you are entitled to timely repairs, particularly if the product is under warranty.  It is irrelevant what you do with the photographs you produce with the camera.

I agree! Well obviously the buyer is irrelevant, and all buyers must get a good service and a camera that works as it should, but if you need a camera day in and day out to do your job, to pay your mortgage, to put food on the table, and you can't do your job because the shitty plastic gear in it broke then you are screwed, right? There is a lot at stake for a person who relies on their equipment to do their job. And some of that is impossible to repair should you lose it; Your reputation, your career, your livelihood. There is zero room for this sort of error in such a highly competitive and fragile business. That is the only point being made here and the camera is marketed at these people. But sure, no matter who buys the camera they still deserve the same product and service.

[Bo_Dez]

Hi Joe,

You know, this is just BS!

If an amateur looses images is just as bad as pro. That person may never go to that place again.

Amateurs take pictures for their love of imaging, but don't ever believe that those pictures matter less to amateurs than to professionals!

Right, loosing a customer is bad for your business. Memories lost may not have a business value, but be sure they cause pain for the amateur.

Amateurs don't have the budget you are accustomed to, but they still care a lot!

Best regards
Erik

Sorry, but it's crazy to compare an enthusiast who has none of their financial wellbeing, their reputation, their job, their ability to put food on the table, tied to their equipment and pictures with a professional. Losing a customer is not only bad, it can be catastrophic and total melt down. It can mean years, several years, of trying to claw back what or some of what you had with the risk of never getting back. One failure is usually the end of the road for a client and they don't just let you back 6 months or a year later. Losing pictures is not nice at all but think how you would feel if losing those photos also lost what ever the job you have as well. It's pain on another level, it's nothing compared to losing your wellbeing, your financial security, your ability to provide for your family, months on end of no sleep from worry, and most photographers who have been in the business 20-30 years don't have a lot of other options.

[Bo_Dez]

Leica tried that at launch - there clearly weren't enough takers or else the price wasn't attractive when compared to the competition. Today, the price may be, but the service/support is wanting and more importantly the S lenses though excellent may well be 'lacking' in the AF department. Something that, in a way is worse, 'cos it's not something that can be fixed by good service alone.

Exactly. This is not just about service, better service is not going to change a thing, ultimately. This is about fundamental design and fixing what isn't working. It's about responsibility for your customers, some of which have spent the best part of $100K on a system they have bought in good faith of working without the worry of getting through a shoot or not. The part that breaks is plastic - hurry up and make it metal. There are no excuses for this level of inaction and lack of care. They need to fix it and fix it fast.

[DrakeJ]

Professionals have a backup camera/lenses and makes sure they have a workflow that backups all images all the time. That's why they're professionals. Everything breaks down sooner or later, and it's your job to make sure that when that happens you are prepared.