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Author Topic: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage  (Read 7025 times)

jrsforums

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2017, 09:51:51 am »

Samuel, I suspect you are making the Qimage process more complicated than it needs to be.

While Qimage has good editing tools, it is primarily intended for those who do not have or use other editors.

My process is simple.  Using LR, PS, or other tools such as Topaz, I get the image to look the way I want on the screen.  This is all done at native size, no attempt to uprez or final sharpen and at ProPhotoRGB.

When ready, I create a Tif/jpg in the DDIprint color space (comes with QU, smaller than PPRGB, bigger than any printer space.

No addl editing in QU.  Just layout and print.  QU automatically interpolates and smart sharpens to your designated size in order to create a print which looks like what you liked on the screen....for any size or multiple sizes you choose.  You can tweak the amount of sharpening based on different media type needs.

It's that simple and produces great, consistent prints.  While QU has lots of other functions and workflow saving features (watch the videos) the great printing, by itself, more than justifies it's use...at any price.

John
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John

Denis de Gannes

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2017, 10:56:56 am »

Samuel, I suspect you are making the Qimage process more complicated than it needs to be.

While Qimage has good editing tools, it is primarily intended for those who do not have or use other editors.

My process is simple.  Using LR, PS, or other tools such as Topaz, I get the image to look the way I want on the screen.  This is all done at native size, no attempt to uprez or final sharpen and at ProPhotoRGB.

When ready, I create a Tif/jpg in the DDIprint color space (comes with QU, smaller than PPRGB, bigger than any printer space.

No addl editing in QU.  Just layout and print.  QU automatically interpolates and smart sharpens to your designated size in order to create a print which looks like what you liked on the screen....for any size or multiple sizes you choose.  You can tweak the amount of sharpening based on different media type needs.

It's that simple and produces great, consistent prints.  While QU has lots of other functions and workflow saving features (watch the videos) the great printing, by itself, more than justifies it's use...at any price.

John

+1 to this approach been doing it for years.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 10:42:22 pm »

Samuel, I suspect you are making the Qimage process more complicated than it needs to be.

While Qimage has good editing tools, it is primarily intended for those who do not have or use other editors.

My process is simple.  Using LR, PS, or other tools such as Topaz, I get the image to look the way I want on the screen.  This is all done at native size, no attempt to uprez or final sharpen and at ProPhotoRGB.

When ready, I create a Tif/jpg in the DDIprint color space (comes with QU, smaller than PPRGB, bigger than any printer space.

No addl editing in QU.  Just layout and print.  QU automatically interpolates and smart sharpens to your designated size in order to create a print which looks like what you liked on the screen....for any size or multiple sizes you choose.  You can tweak the amount of sharpening based on different media type needs.

It's that simple and produces great, consistent prints.  While QU has lots of other functions and workflow saving features (watch the videos) the great printing, by itself, more than justifies it's use...at any price.

John

Hi John, I am still in the process of evaluating the various tools in Qimage, with regards to image quality. That requires a deep look at each individual component, and also how they work together as a whole. This would certainly seem unnecessarily complicated to most people, but as I have said before, I am obsessed about quality, and I will do anything I can do make something better.

My investigation is now showing that it may perhaps be better to do upsampling using a dedicated software, and then let Qimage do the output sharpening and printing, but I am not entirely convinced about DFS yet. Furthermore I have no idea what the sliding scale from 1-10 of smart sharpening is doing under-the-hood.
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alain

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2017, 11:54:34 am »

Hi Bart, yes, this is why I am interested in giving Qimage a try.

I started with a test file, a TIFF with no layers, and double clicked on it in Qimage. That brings me to some kind of editing window. 'Saving out a TIFF' means after edits like upsampling and/or adding DFS, I go to the menu 'File>Save as' to save out a TIFF version of my edits, so I can compare the results against PZP in Photoshop.

I don't believe I have seen any evidence that 16 bit printing is beneficial to 8 bit printing, so perhaps that is not an issue at all with Qimage. But it is nice to have the 16 bit Plug-in for my Canon iPF8400 too. I am still in the midst of weaning myself off from overly large working spaces to Joe Holmes' Dcam spaces, so the JPEG 8 bit route may eventually work, but not so for my current ProPhoto RGB Masters.

Again, in the editing window after double clicking on the test TIFF file in the main Qimage window. When I invoke DFS by changing the radius or % amount, a small window appears to give me a close up preview of an area of the image. The preview takes a long time to toggle between the before/after states! Topaz Detail 3 is almost instant. Click - instant refresh - release. So after I hit the 'OK' button, Qimage starts to do its DFS magic and I am left with a spinning cursor for almost 1 minute. No, I was not printing to file. Multi-core processing is turning on (by default). No thumbnails are building in the background.

So that is what is happening, I'm not convinced that it is a faster way to work just now. Perhaps overall it is more efficient, especially with the benefits of nesting and for those printing a lot. I tend to make my prints one at a time and spend quite a bit of extra time per print.

BTW what do the sharpening scale numbers 1-10 correspond to? Default is 5 - what is that in radius and amount % for DFS?

Thanks for this. I've been rethinking the halo issue. I was looking at the results on actual photographs when making my earlier observations. A halo to me is just that, an obvious dark contour and/or an obvious light contour on either side of an edge. I've always thought that the best kind of sharpening would simply increase the MTF gradient, steepening it, of an edge, without creating any overshoots. If the edge is very soft/wide, 'thinning' the edge and reducing the zone of transition is the way to go, not lowering the dark gray values further and raising the light gray values - that would just create halos, no?

Check out the synthetic slant edge target I used as an experiment. 4 JPEG files, the original target and two renderings of DFS at amount 1000% with radius 1 and 3, one of Topaz Detail (Small Details 1.00). Turns out that Topaz Detail does add 'halos', pardon me if you think I am abusing the word. So - what on earth is happening? I don't see this with regular photographs. The halos with Topaz Detail are horrible! They are wider than the radius=1 halos with DFS, plus they have a zipper artifact. Where would the zipper artifacts come from? It's a dither-free 16 bit mode image in Photoshop. That's really disgusting! If anything, DFS radius=1 is much better.

I don't like how DFS reduces the tonal contrast of fine, low contrast detail. Also notice that the white and black halos are apt to be driven into clipping with high amount settings with DFS, while Topaz does not clip even at the maximum setting.

I've always thought that Topaz's Small Details was not quite small enough. Wouldn't a 'Ultra Fine Details' setting be nice?  ;)

Indeed it would be difficult to make a direct comparison. What I am more interested in is if I can do anything to get even better quality output, plain and simple. It could be achieving the same quality faster, or better quality with the same amount of time and effort, or better quality with even more time and effort but worthwhile.

Are you testing print quality without printing? Optimized sharpning for printing at 600 (or 720) ppi can look ugly on screen at 100%)
I would make some small A3 or even smaller A4 prints with crops from the total image.  (Qimage has a function for it too, but for testing I would crop myself before.)

If not printing  are you using the print to file function?
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alain

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2017, 11:56:16 am »

Samuel, I suspect you are making the Qimage process more complicated than it needs to be.

While Qimage has good editing tools, it is primarily intended for those who do not have or use other editors.

My process is simple.  Using LR, PS, or other tools such as Topaz, I get the image to look the way I want on the screen.  This is all done at native size, no attempt to uprez or final sharpen and at ProPhotoRGB.

When ready, I create a Tif/jpg in the DDIprint color space (comes with QU, smaller than PPRGB, bigger than any printer space.

No addl editing in QU.  Just layout and print.  QU automatically interpolates and smart sharpens to your designated size in order to create a print which looks like what you liked on the screen....for any size or multiple sizes you choose.  You can tweak the amount of sharpening based on different media type needs.

It's that simple and produces great, consistent prints.  While QU has lots of other functions and workflow saving features (watch the videos) the great printing, by itself, more than justifies it's use...at any price.

John

What's the added benefit to first converting to DDIprint?

I use the workflow without this extra conversion.
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jrsforums

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2017, 01:20:56 pm »

What's the added benefit to first converting to DDIprint?

I use the workflow without this extra conversion.

If you are saving to 16 bit Tif, none. 

My understanding is that it is better to do the ProPhoto conversion to a smaller color space while in 16 bit...conversion in 8 bit can have issues.  DDIprint is much smaller than ProPhoto, yet larger than printer spaces.  Therefore, I convert to DDI while in 16 bit, which should make 8 bit Tif or jpg conversion to the printer profile better.  Also works for 16 bit Tif....and since you need to export in LR anyway, it is in my workflow for all.
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John

jrsforums

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2017, 01:40:13 pm »

Hi John, I am still in the process of evaluating the various tools in Qimage, with regards to image quality. That requires a deep look at each individual component, and also how they work together as a whole. This would certainly seem unnecessarily complicated to most people, but as I have said before, I am obsessed about quality, and I will do anything I can do make something better.

Experimentation is great.  I was just trying to give you a view of a workflow that many use with QU.
Quote

My investigation is now showing that it may perhaps be better to do upsampling using a dedicated software, and then let Qimage do the output sharpening and printing, but I am not entirely convinced about DFS yet. 

As I stated in my post, QU output sharpening is based on a native resolution image edited and sharpened to your taste on the screen.  The output sharpening is then applied to maintain that look as it is resized to he selected print size.  I think you are exploring new ground upsampling above.  You may find Jim Kasson's test of interest http://blog.kasson.com/technical/resampling-for-printing-revisited/
Quote

Furthermore I have no idea what the sliding scale from 1-10 of smart sharpening is doing under-the-hood.

The scale increases or decreases the amount applied 😀. I doubt Mike Chaney is going to share his "magic"
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 01:43:56 pm by jrsforums »
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John

Malcolm Payne

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2017, 04:34:04 pm »

I have been following this thread with interest, as I've looked at Qimage a number of times over the past few years to see if it might add anything to my workflow, but have never been quite convinced enough actually to buy the software.

My background is that I print professionally for a number of very critical and internationally-exhibiting artists, using a full RIP for output. My default workflow comprises an initial capture sharpening pass with Focus Magic on the artwork image converted with Capture One Pro, followed by any other adjustments for colour matching etc, then an output sharpening pass with Nik Sharpener Pro 3 at the required print size, ignoring the actual file resolution (i.e. resample = off). The file is then sent to the RIP, which takes care of any resampling required for the printer input. While this may be theoretically and technically sub-optimal in some instances, the RIP does a very good job and there have never been any complaints about print resolution and sharpness; in fact I sometimes have to dial back the output sharpening from the defaults.

I did some tests earlier last year which may be helpful to the present discussion, comparing prints from Qimage to my usual workflow and also to an enhanced workflow with Photozoom Pro as an intermediate resizing step. These may not show the full achievable differences as they were done on the matte art paper that the majority of my clients specify, although this particular paper holds fine lines and detail exceptionally well.

The native resolution of the original file was 335ppi at the required output dimensions. All print files were derived from the same master file which had an initial capture-sharpening pass with Focus Magic. The Qimage prints used QI's Fusion interpolator.

(1) The Qimage prints needed a Final Print Sharpening setting of 15 DFS (med-high; I believe the default is 5) to match my default workflow prints with Nik Sharpener Pro for resolution and sharpness.

(2) The Qimage prints exhibited a small colour/contrast/saturation shift compared to the prints from the RIP, though this may have been the result of using output profiles originally generated via the RIP.

(3) Using an intermediate Photozoom Pro S-Spline Max resampling step in the default RIP workflow, there was a tiny improvement in sharpness and resolution when resampled to 300ppi and a slightly more definite, albeit still small, improvement when resampled to 600ppi, both using the Nik Sharpener defaults at 100%

(4) The output sharpening percentage in (3) had a greater effect than the resampling value; at 50% output sharpening, the 300ppi and 600ppi results were effectively indistinguishable.

(5) Generally, the results using the RIP with the added Photozoom Pro intermediate step were sharper and felt more coherent and less harsh than the equivalent Qimage prints, though the differences were mostly fairly subtle and mainly obvious on a direct side-by-side comparison.

I don't pretend for a moment that this was an exhaustive test, as there are so many parameters in the various softwares that could be fine-tuned and which might well affect the final results, but it may suggest avenues for further exploration.

On a purely physical basis, Qimage's handling of bulk prints on roll paper when tested was substantially inferior to that of the RIP, though I note that Mike has added a new roll printing feature in the latest release which may go some way towards rectifying that.

None of this is intended to detract from Qimage, which does an amazing job at a very small fraction of the cost of a professional RIP and with a great deal of convenience for the average user, particularly on sheet paper. I am actually still tempted to buy it, both as an additional tool in the box and for some of its other useful features; however, for my purposes, the basic RIP workflow still provides better quality as standard, with the option of squeezing the last few percent out of the print if necessary by resampling with Photozoom Pro, at the cost of the significant additional resampling time.

Malcolm
 
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Optimizing print sharpness using Qimage
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 02:42:17 pm »

A very interesting discussion -- thanks to everyone for so generously sharing your thoughts and experience.
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