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Author Topic: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers  (Read 2404 times)

deanwork

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Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« on: December 30, 2016, 01:54:57 PM »

Here is a LL link to one of the discussions with Angel, the Spanish guy who was a consultant to HP who engineered the workflow for high-end digital negs on the Z3200 printer. We emailed back and forth about 5 years ago and he told me at that time that Hp had lost interest in dealing with such things because it didn't reward them with a quick profit market. So, they made him take all the great work he had done off of their website.

As a result all of the links that went to those HP websites are now not available to us.

We may be able to find a way to contact Angel. But he has to be careful because this work was the property of HP, and even though they don't care about encouraging it, they sponsored it.

He sent me a curve that was designed for the 3200 to analyze and now when I need it I can't find it. But essentially it was some form of greenish gray, as that hue worked best in rendering the best subtle tonal range under printing with uv light.

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=45662.0

Angel had other posts about this on other forums that are linked to in this LL post.

I hope we can all share info about this use of the Z for platinum negs as we experiment. Because Angel did so  much work on this it would be to out advantage to re-read what he has written about his findings. For the Z3200 users it was all worked out and he had curves for various processes, so it was just a push button method, quite unlike Nelson's Precision Digital Negs that requires a lot of tests and spectro readings off of the analogue prints.

I know from seeing some of Mark Nelson's greenish yellow negatives for platinum that they were on the same track, only with different printer makes. It is my understanding with Nelson's method you can use any modern color printer to make them.

Cone's method that is really excellent is all worked out for you with curves for various processes, and it uses gray and black inks only. I want to try them all.

john

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nirpat89

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2016, 03:31:08 PM »

Apparently Angel still has an active website (lovely work)

http://en.albarrancabrera.com/

This thread in DPUG that I had come across before while doing my research talks about Angel's work involving pretty much many of the the who's who of the digital negs and alternative print making world.  Worthwhile reading the whole thing.

http://www.dpug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2039

edit: Jim Collum seems to be the only person who has successfully used the HP Z3200 system (very happy) as reported in that thread.  You can probably contact him and see if he still has the original HP files.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 05:48:39 PM by nirpat89 »
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donbga

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2016, 04:58:37 PM »

Here is a LL link to one of the discussions with Angel, the Spanish guy who was a consultant to HP who engineered the workflow for high-end digital negs on the Z3200 printer. We emailed back and forth about 5 years ago and he told me at that time that Hp had lost interest in dealing with such things because it didn't reward them with a quick profit market. So, they made him take all the great work he had done off of their website.

As a result all of the links that went to those HP websites are now not available to us.

We may be able to find a way to contact Angel. But he has to be careful because this work was the property of HP, and even though they don't care about encouraging it, they sponsored it.

He sent me a curve that was designed for the 3200 to analyze and now when I need it I can't find it. But essentially it was some form of greenish gray, as that hue worked best in rendering the best subtle tonal range under printing with uv light.

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=45662.0

Angel had other posts about this on other forums that are linked to in this LL post.

I hope we can all share info about this use of the Z for platinum negs as we experiment. Because Angel did so  much work on this it would be to out advantage to re-read what he has written about his findings. For the Z3200 users it was all worked out and he had curves for various processes, so it was just a push button method, quite unlike Nelson's Precision Digital Negs that requires a lot of tests and spectro readings off of the analogue prints.

I know from seeing some of Mark Nelson's greenish yellow negatives for platinum that they were on the same track, only with different printer makes. It is my understanding with Nelson's method you can use any modern color printer to make them.

Cone's method that is really excellent is all worked out for you with curves for various processes, and it uses gray and black inks only. I want to try them all.

john

Green digital negs aren't necessarily the best solution for a colorized negative. It all depends as they say. Using someone else's "pre-rolled" like you suggest for the Cone method isn't necessarily the best either. His new system PiezoDN sounds like a good solution but I can't test it since it's Mac only, although Keith Schreiber has endorsed it which speaks volumes to me.

I've used Mark's Curve Calculator II for years and it can be very flexible and effective though it can be a beast to use. One thing Mark Nelson points out is that with CC II & CCIII (CCIII is MAC only BTW) one can create differnt curve sets for a process to avoid having one's prints looking the same. IOW, it's possible to interpretively change the print syntax.

Jim Collum is also a very reliable source for real world application of different digital techniques. I've seen his work up close and personal and it is top notch so no doubt he is getting good results with the Z3200. And that being said I've been tempted to buy a Z3200 myself.

Don Bryant
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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 05:56:11 PM »


Guys, thank you S0 much for those links. Personally I think the geeky method that Nelson has established is overkill for me and I don't get off on making endless tests. I'm going to standardize on a couple of papers.  If you are printing on silver gelatin that is one thing, but I have no interest in that.

Cone's method, which uses the standard K7 inks with a different black for one method, or the new Piezo Pro inks ( which can also print on inkjet paper for neutral, warm, or split toned results, do have generic curves that work quite well to start. But, that is provided you are using the same paper and chemestry he is using. They are using Arches Platine I believe and the basic chemestry for Platinum Palladium. I am going to be using a different method which gives much better dmax and it's going to have to be linearized differently. In making monochrome gum prints with windsor newton watercolors I'm going to be playing with the curves anyway and it isn't anywhere as critical as making silver prints or something like that anyway. Actually curve creation for that is part of the creativity. For silver and very sharp platinum prints Cone's method may have noticeably better resolution. I'll see.

For doing fast negs of all sizes on a printer you can use for anything else I'm hoping my Z will do the job very well. I'll find out.

John




Apparently Angel still has an active website (lovely work)

http://en.albarrancabrera.com/

This thread in DPUG that I had come across before while doing my research talks about Angel's work involving pretty much many of the the who's who of the digital negs and alternative print making world.  Worthwhile reading the whole thing.

http://www.dpug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2039

edit: Jim Collum seems to be the only person who has successfully used the HP Z3200 system (very happy.) as reported in that thread.  You can probably contact him and see if he still has the original HP files.
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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 06:06:02 PM »

This link to Angel's website doesn't seem to open. Is something missing?

thanks,

john



http://en.albarrancabrera.com/
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nirpat89

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 06:41:03 PM »

This link to Angel's website doesn't seem to open.
Try it again.  It is slow I think.  But I was able to open it just now.
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disneytoy

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2016, 06:18:21 AM »

It had. Been years since doing alt photo. The way I use to do it was with a color step wedge wed print out. It was a color range. Since I did several alt processes, each chemistry had unique UV sensitivities. Cyanotype, Van Dyke, CRbon, Gum Dichromate plat/palladium.

You'd do a test strip print with your prepared paper. You'd then scan into Photoshop and csm calculate your best curves. Once you save the curves, they can be applied to your reversed image and printed.

Because each chemistry, and ingact each paper combo had different sensitivities, you'd created this crazy amber to greenish neg.

If you've ever seen what s flower looks like with a UV photo you'd understand how different colors absorb UV diffetently than our non UV eyes.

By the way, we had z project and printed d digital negs for s client on a 44" roll of OHP transparency.
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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2016, 09:35:41 AM »

How did that work out for you? There used to be a lot of pin holes in the OHP roll film. Then they improved it a lot. But I'm not against spotting an analogue print. I would love to do some mono gum prints that size, and will be trying it. Since my vacuum frame is only 16x20 I'll have buy a giant piece of heavy sky scraper glass.  Wasting black watercolor is not a big deal.

How heavy was the glass you used to do the exposing? Was it a giant vacuum frame.




john


By the way, we had z project and printed d digital negs for s client on a 44" roll of OHP transparency.
[/quote]
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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2016, 10:06:04 AM »

Thank you so much. Angel's site is working for me now.

I love this work. It appears to be inspired by Yamamoto  but has it's own distinct identity.

 http://www.yamamotomasao.jp/works_kawa_1.html

http://albarrancabrera.tumblr.com/post/150789049827/our-stand-at-unseen-photo-fair-2016-today-has


I've been looking at all these pioneers of these multi-layered multi-media alternative processes and so far I like his the best. It doesn't look forced, it looks natural, and no matter what process he is working in, his aesthetic remains exactly the same, and thankfully it's not about the process, just reinforced by the process. Beautiful. And I can see they are all small scale.


John



Try it again.  It is slow I think.  But I was able to open it just now.
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nirpat89

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2017, 10:50:20 AM »

Thank you so much. Angel's site is working for me now.

I love this work. It appears to be inspired by Yamamoto  but has it's own distinct identity.

 http://www.yamamotomasao.jp/works_kawa_1.html

http://albarrancabrera.tumblr.com/post/150789049827/our-stand-at-unseen-photo-fair-2016-today-has


I've been looking at all these pioneers of these multi-layered multi-media alternative processes and so far I like his the best. It doesn't look forced, it looks natural, and no matter what process he is working in, his aesthetic remains exactly the same, and thankfully it's not about the process, just reinforced by the process. Beautiful. And I can see they are all small scale.


John

Thanks for those links.  The Instagram account has an even more impressive set.  It should be noted that the work is a collaborative effort of two people - Angel Albarrán and Anna Cabrera.  First time I saw their work, I did feel that "Oriental" quality to it and it also intrigued me for their use of a Krishna fable (Mouth of Krishna) as a context of their art.  As you point out, I can see the parallels to Yamamoto, particularly "Kawa" and "A Box of Ku" - what is it: simplicity, understated-ness, subdued colors, stark contrast? They don't talk too much about their background and how they came into their particular style.  Makes it even more mysterious. 

The breadth of various processes is indeed impressive and even when presented all within the same set, they look like they belong together.  That is probably illustrated best by their Cyanotype+Pt/Pd pieces.  I am in general not a big fan of Cyanotypes but theirs are exquisite (Krishna # 450 in particular.) 

Rearding the sizes, I am a fan of small prints.  I would love to these in person.  Good luck with your giant prints.  Looking forward to learning how that goes for you.

:Niranjan. 

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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2017, 11:40:22 AM »

 Yamamoto has always created this sense of mystery to me that goes far beyond photography or printmaking.

Several years ago I saw some prints by Kenro Izu which were 11x14 contact prints of nudes which involved printing one layer of cyanotype and one layer of platinum. They were so physically powerful that I immediately wanted to work with something like this. Just now getting started, very slowly. I emailed him and we had a very nice conversation. He's such a great guy, and has no overblown ego whatsoever. He is one a dying breed of photo craftsmen who still have an original vision.  Later I wrote an essay describing several Japanese photographers work I saw that week in NY. I have known about them all for a long time but seeing them all in one trip was enlightening to me.  There is an iconic precious quality in these guys work that I am trying to return to without being about the process itself. They are tactile and all seem like gems.  Angel's work is like that too.

If you scroll down to the bottom you will see the Izo nude. But of course you can't see it on a computer screen and that is exactly why I love it so much.

http://theagnosticprint.net/in-defense-of-the-preious-object/
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nirpat89

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2017, 04:28:55 PM »

Yamamoto has always created this sense of mystery to me that goes far beyond photography or printmaking.

Several years ago I saw some prints by Kenro Izu which were 11x14 contact prints of nudes which involved printing one layer of cyanotype and one layer of platinum. They were so physically powerful that I immediately wanted to work with something like this. Just now getting started, very slowly. I emailed him and we had a very nice conversation. He's such a great guy, and has no overblown ego whatsoever. He is one a dying breed of photo craftsmen who still have an original vision.  Later I wrote an essay describing several Japanese photographers work I saw that week in NY. I have known about them all for a long time but seeing them all in one trip was enlightening to me.  There is an iconic precious quality in these guys work that I am trying to return to without being about the process itself. They are tactile and all seem like gems.  Angel's work is like that too.

If you scroll down to the bottom you will see the Izo nude. But of course you can't see it on a computer screen and that is exactly why I love it so much.

http://theagnosticprint.net/in-defense-of-the-preious-object/

Thanks.  I will check it out.  Sounds very interesting.  Will give me something to read and think about while I winter-migrate.  I did discover Kenro Izu's website sometime ago.  Believe or not I never made to the Blue portfolio of his.  I was still admiring his other portfolios like the Sacred Places.

As someone who likes to do landscape photography, I also love the Pt/Pd work of Nobuyuki Kobayashi.  He makes big prints as well. 

Inspiring: 

:Niranjan
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 08:50:53 AM by nirpat89 »
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donbga

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 09:16:39 PM »

Thanks.  I will check it out.  Sounds very interesting.  Will give me something to read and think about while I winter-migrate. 
:Niranjan.

So, did you ever figure out how to make digital negatives? Did Mark's advice help you?

Don Bryant
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nirpat89

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 08:47:03 AM »

So, did you ever figure out how to make digital negatives? Did Mark's advice help you?

Don Bryant

Don, Hi:

Indeed, I did.  Made a few good prints that made it all the to the end without mishaps.  Then the progress got hampered due to computer problems.  In the mean time played with salt print chemistry.  Hope to pick it back up in spring.

:Niranjan
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 08:52:05 AM by nirpat89 »
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iulian_stanea

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 02:18:05 PM »

Does anyone still have the zip file from when HP "supported" this?
I was only able to find the pdf on scribd.
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iulian_stanea

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2017, 03:27:55 PM »

Nevermind, found help elsewhere.
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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 09:13:28 AM »

If anyone has this folder with the HPZ workflow for the digital negative process, could you please send it to me?

[email protected]

Thank you,

John




Does anyone still have the zip file from when HP "supported" this?
I was only able to find the pdf on scribd.
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donbga

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 10:01:55 AM »

If anyone has this folder with the HPZ workflow for the digital negative process, could you please send it to me?

[email protected]

Thank you,

John

John,

I think Charles Berger of UltraStable fame maybe able to help you. His e-mail address is [email protected].

He is an advocate of the Z3200 and I'm sure has the info. you need. The workflow maybe posted on Sandy King's Carbon Printing Yahoo Group where Charles is an active participant.

Carbon Transfer Printing

Don Bryant
 
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2017, 10:16:29 AM »

If anyone has this folder with the HPZ workflow for the digital negative process, could you please send it to me?

[email protected]

Thank you,

John

It is in the files section of the Wide_Inkjet_Printers  mailing list on Yahoo. You are still a member John.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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deanwork

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Re: Digital Negatives on OHP from HP Z Printers
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 09:12:42 AM »

Thanks Ernst,

I've got them.

And thanks Don for the link to the Carbon Printing Yahoo group run by Sandy.

john


It is in the files section of the Wide_Inkjet_Printers  mailing list on Yahoo. You are still a member John.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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