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Author Topic: LG Ultrafine 5K Display  (Read 4812 times)

Rajan Parrikar

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LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« on: December 26, 2016, 01:05:58 AM »

kikashi

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2016, 05:08:03 AM »

I've seen no reviews, but of course it's not shipping yet. It's remarkably cheap but that might just be an effect of the "special discounted price". The main thing I found interesting in the description is the heavy emphasis on the MacBook as the computer to drive it: no mention of the mini or the pro.

Jeremy
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2016, 08:45:09 AM »

Jeremy,

The Mac Pro 2013 can drive it via an adapter but only for 4K.

kers

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2016, 09:51:24 AM »

Jeremy,

The Mac Pro 2013 can drive it via an adapter but only for 4K.

i think a display works best at its native resolution... or divided by 2 or 4...
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kikashi

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2016, 05:06:21 AM »

The Mac Pro 2013 can drive it via an adapter but only for 4K.

Thanks, Rajan, but my point was really that Apple don't bother even to mention that fact. There's been a lot of discussion recently about Apple's commitment to the Mac, to the desktop range and in particular to the Pro, and the blurb didn't give me any confidence in that commitment. I find it concerning. It's irrelevant to your question, though, so I'll leave it there.

Jeremy
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Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2016, 08:03:58 AM »

Anyone here with an opinion on this monitor?

http://www.apple.com/shop/product/HKN62LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k-display

I ordered one a few days ago when it became available for ordering. It will be matched with my MBP 2016. I have a Dell 32" 4K display which I will sell. 4K on a large screen is not a good idea. It should either be the old 2560x1600 or 2560x1440 resolution or 5K. Currently I use the TB3 to HDMI adapter for the Dell monitor and that works fine. The only thing is wakeup from sleep which often requires the monitor to be turned ogg and then on again for it to synchronize with the MBP. I expect the LG screen to be really nice since Apple has worked closely with LG to make this display. As far as I can see this monitor will only connect via a TB3 USB-C cable so older MBP's are ruled out.

Rajan Parrikar

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 04:55:46 AM »

Jeremy,

I found out compatibility only by scrolling down at the link above to the "Question & Answers" section. See attachment.

Hans - why is 4K not good but 5K is okay on large screens?

Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2017, 07:20:46 AM »

Jeremy,

I found out compatibility only by scrolling down at the link above to the "Question & Answers" section. See attachment.

Hans - why is 4K not good but 5K is okay on large screens?


Here is one opinion on high DPI screens like the LG 6K screen https://diglloyd.com/blog/2017/20170107_1234-evaluating-images-pixel-density.html. As I often see Lloyd Chambers is able to contradict himself, although he also does good work ;) My opinion is simple: I don't see pixel peeping on low DPI screens useful. Especially not today with the high rez cameras we have. My reasons are that when I view an image from my 50MP 5DSR at 100% or 1:1 in Lightroom on the retina screen on the 15" MBP it corresponds to a print 1 meter wide and viewed at the distance I sit from the screen. I surely would not view a print 1m wide from that distance. It would be further back. So if I'm happy with the sharpness and details 1:1 on the screen then it is good for the print as well given proper print sharpening.

The reason a big 4K screen is not ideal on a Mac is the way scaling works. The OS scales the "looks like" resolution by a factor of 2 in each dimension (so basically 4x resolution). This means that a 4K monitor needs to be run in full HD (half resolution in each dimension) in order to display one image pixel per screen pixel. Full HD looks like resolution looks terrible on a big monitor. If you use the 2560x1440 "looks like" resolution then this maps perfectly to 5K as this is exactly 2x higher resolution in each dimension.  So if you run a 4K monitor in the "looks like" resolution 2560x1440 there is a slight blur at 1:1. A smaller monitor like a 21" monitor will look good with full HD looks like resolution. SO now you see the reason for the 21" imac is 4K and the 27" iMac is 5K. The DPI of the 5K iMac and LG screen is the same as the retina MBP screen.

davidgp

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 01:04:55 PM »


The reason a big 4K screen is not ideal on a Mac is the way scaling works. The OS scales the "looks like" resolution by a factor of 2 in each dimension (so basically 4x resolution). This means that a 4K monitor needs to be run in full HD (half resolution in each dimension) in order to display one image pixel per screen pixel. Full HD looks like resolution looks terrible on a big monitor. If you use the 2560x1440 "looks like" resolution then this maps perfectly to 5K as this is exactly 2x higher resolution in each dimension.  So if you run a 4K monitor in the "looks like" resolution 2560x1440 there is a slight blur at 1:1. A smaller monitor like a 21" monitor will look good with full HD looks like resolution. SO now you see the reason for the 21" imac is 4K and the 27" iMac is 5K. The DPI of the 5K iMac and LG screen is the same as the retina MBP screen.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that it is not how I understand how it works... If the program is ready for those types 4k/5k screens like Lightroom or photoshop are... When scaling the image 1:1 the image it is displayed at 1:1 to the native screen resolution... Menus items and other gui tools are scaled... But not the images...

Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 02:29:27 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong, but that it is not how I understand how it works... If the program is ready for those types 4k/5k screens like Lightroom or photoshop are... When scaling the image 1:1 the image it is displayed at 1:1 to the native screen resolution... Menus items and other gui tools are scaled... But not the images...

The application cannot scale to the screen resolution. Basically fronts, text, menu items are scaled to a size relative to the "looks like" resolution and pixel data are scale to the double resolution in each dimension (4x the looks like resolution) and this resolution is then scaled to the screen resolution. As I explained a looks like resolution set at full HD 1920x1080 will render text menu items etc. at a size relative to this but with 4x resolution which is 3840x2160 (4K) resolution. This means that text will be rendered sharp with the full 4K resolution. Binary data like image data will be rendered in the 4x resolution of the "looks like" resolution which means that looks like set to full HD will render image data at 4K. So therefore 1:1 in Lightroom will map one pixel in the image to exactly 1 screen pixel. Is it clear now? The application does not have the option of doing it differently.

This also means that on a 15" MBP retina display you should always set the looks like to 1440x900 and not any other scaled resolution. Btw. the MBP 2016 defaults to 1680x1050 which should not be used unless you can accept a slight blur in 1:1 in Lightroom.

See here https://9to5mac.com/2016/12/02/15-inch-macbook-pro-screen-resolution-blurry/ and the developper pages here etc.
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/GraphicsAnimation/Conceptual/HighResolutionOSX/Explained/Explained.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40012302-CH4-SW1

I also posted this here in 2015 http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102864.0
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 02:49:53 PM by Hans Kruse »
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davidgp

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »

Hi Hans,

Maybe I expressed myself wrong... but I wanted to say exactly what you described... I missed the part of scaled resolutions in your previous post


http://dgpfotografia.com

Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 04:04:12 PM »

Hi Hans,

Maybe I expressed myself wrong... but I wanted to say exactly what you described... I missed the part of scaled resolutions in your previous post


http://dgpfotografia.com

Ok, thanks :)

hjulenissen

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2017, 03:41:33 AM »

The application cannot scale to the screen resolution. Basically fronts, text, menu items are scaled to a size relative to the "looks like" resolution and pixel data are scale to the double resolution in each dimension (4x the looks like resolution) and this resolution is then scaled to the screen resolution. As I explained a looks like resolution set at full HD 1920x1080 will render text menu items etc. at a size relative to this but with 4x resolution which is 3840x2160 (4K) resolution. This means that text will be rendered sharp with the full 4K resolution. Binary data like image data will be rendered in the 4x resolution of the "looks like" resolution which means that looks like set to full HD will render image data at 4K. So therefore 1:1 in Lightroom will map one pixel in the image to exactly 1 screen pixel. Is it clear now? The application does not have the option of doing it differently.

This also means that on a 15" MBP retina display you should always set the looks like to 1440x900 and not any other scaled resolution. Btw. the MBP 2016 defaults to 1680x1050 which should not be used unless you can accept a slight blur in 1:1 in Lightroom.

See here https://9to5mac.com/2016/12/02/15-inch-macbook-pro-screen-resolution-blurry/ and the developper pages here etc.
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/GraphicsAnimation/Conceptual/HighResolutionOSX/Explained/Explained.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40012302-CH4-SW1

I also posted this here in 2015 http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102864.0
My understanding is that Apple effectively offers a 1)"legacy display API" and a 2)"native display API". The former will assume some virtual display pixel size, so that legacy/simple applications will render gui elements at a sensible size without having to be rewritten, subsequently using OS-level image scaling. The latter will allow current applications to control each display pixel how ever it pleases.

I don't understand your argument for specific display sizes. Having a small, integer scaling factor between the apparent legacy display resolution, and the real physical display resolution would allow Apple to do resizing slightly cheaper.

The long-term solution as displays approach 8k and 10k will likely be to view image resolution as "semi-continous" and "above what our eyes can see", just like digital audio, and convert sample rates as needed.

-h
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Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2017, 06:22:52 AM »

My understanding is that Apple effectively offers a 1)"legacy display API" and a 2)"native display API". The former will assume some virtual display pixel size, so that legacy/simple applications will render gui elements at a sensible size without having to be rewritten, subsequently using OS-level image scaling. The latter will allow current applications to control each display pixel how ever it pleases.

I don't understand your argument for specific display sizes. Having a small, integer scaling factor between the apparent legacy display resolution, and the real physical display resolution would allow Apple to do resizing slightly cheaper.

The long-term solution as displays approach 8k and 10k will likely be to view image resolution as "semi-continous" and "above what our eyes can see", just like digital audio, and convert sample rates as needed.

-h

You will understand if you read the explanations in the links as well as my posts on the subject. Especially the developer pages are very clear on how it works. It's indeed very simple. The Mac OS display into a virtual display space that is 4x the resolution of the "looks like" chosen resolution (which is the default in the 2015 and previous MBP 15" models but not the 2016) and the 5K iMac. When the looks like resolution is exactly 50% pixels in each dimension of the physical resolution then the display is exactly crisp. With higher resolutions like 8K this sill be harder to see. Apple might change the scaling method for these higher resolution devices in the future.

Remember this is for the Mac OS, how Windows does it, I don't know.

hjulenissen

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2017, 07:53:11 AM »

You will understand if you read the explanations in the links as well as my posts on the subject. Especially the developer pages are very clear on how it works. ...
I had a quick glance at that article, and it seems to support my understanding.

Applications can either render to the native display resolution, or to a "virtual" display that is 1/2 the horisontal and vertical resolution.

The former provides direct access to higher resolution, while the latter provides compability for old software.

Am I missing something, or is this a more compact way of describing the situation?

-h
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Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 08:30:13 AM »

I had a quick glance at that article, and it seems to support my understanding.

Applications can either render to the native display resolution, or to a "virtual" display that is 1/2 the horisontal and vertical resolution.

The former provides direct access to higher resolution, while the latter provides compability for old software.

Am I missing something, or is this a more compact way of describing the situation?

-h

Apps optimized for retina displays work the way I described. A looks like resolution chosen in the monitor preferences on a 4K display as 1920x1080 will let the app display pixel data at 3840x2160 which maps perfect to the psysical screen.  If a better looking (in terms of font size) scaling is chosen at 2560x1440. Then the graphics will be rendered into a virtual screen space at 5120x2880 (which happens to 5K) and then scaled to the physical screen at 3840x2160. This creates the blur. This is how Lightroom and Photoshop and all graphics apps I use work and therefore the 4K screen is not ideal as I have mentioned. It seems that Lightroom or Photoshop could write directly to screen pixels at least as mentioned under advanced optimization techniques but this is not used. You can see this when doing a screen shot which dumps the virtual screen and not the scaled one. I have written about this before and nobody from Adobe has commented on this and the issues of the OS X scaling for high resolution displays are implemented.

hjulenissen

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 09:21:17 AM »

Apps optimized for retina displays work the way I described. A looks like resolution chosen in the monitor preferences on a 4K display as 1920x1080 will let the app display pixel data at 3840x2160 which maps perfect to the psysical screen.  If a better looking (in terms of font size) scaling is chosen at 2560x1440. Then the graphics will be rendered into a virtual screen space at 5120x2880 (which happens to 5K) and then scaled to the physical screen at 3840x2160. This creates the blur. This is how Lightroom and Photoshop and all graphics apps I use work and therefore the 4K screen is not ideal as I have mentioned. It seems that Lightroom or Photoshop could write directly to screen pixels at least as mentioned under advanced optimization techniques but this is not used. You can see this when doing a screen shot which dumps the virtual screen and not the scaled one. I have written about this before and nobody from Adobe has commented on this and the issues of the OS X scaling for high resolution displays are implemented.
What is the basis for this statement "If a better looking (in terms of font size) scaling is chosen at 2560x1440."?

Not trying to be argumentative here, but to understand what you are saying.

If I had a 4k display and Apple (only) does 2x2 scaling, I would set my "desktop" to approximately 2000x1000 "pixels" ("points", I believe, according to Apple). I would assume that fonts of height 8 pts then would cover 8/1000 of my display height, rendered as 16 physical pixels.

If I had a 5k display, I would set my desktop to 2560x1440. I would assume that fonts of height 8pts then would cover 8/2560th of my display height, rendered as 16 physical pixels.

Effectively, for a given display size (e.g. 27"), a 5k display would give me smaller text.

I would assume that when high-end image editors shows an image, it would be directly mapped to physical screen pixels.

I don't see any other sensible way this could fly?

-h
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Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 09:00:12 AM »

I have shown in the previous thread about the scaling issue how Lightroom and Photoshop works as retina aware apps. Capture One and all other retina aware apps I know of works the same way. So I'm not sure what I can do to convince you about how this works and why a large 4K screen is not optimal for Mac. Even movie playback apps also work this way.

Here is a screen shot of my screen setting for my 4K screen. This means that 1:1 in Lightroom is displayed smaller than it should since it is 5K mapped down to 4K. But again, I have been through all that in the different threads about this previously. So it doesn't help that you think it should have been done in a different way when it isn't ;)

kers

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 09:36:45 AM »

Apple... It just works... ;)
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Hans Kruse

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Re: LG Ultrafine 5K Display
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 10:30:56 AM »

Apple... It just works... ;)

Sure, it does, but it is good to know how it works ;) I'm sure there are similar scaling on Windows that that it would be good to know when choosing screen monitor and resolution.
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