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Author Topic: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?  (Read 5970 times)

john beardsworth

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2017, 11:16:31 AM »

Minor irritations? Ha! Maybe to you but to those of us who use the custom point tone curve adjustment regularly it is a major problem. You don't mention what OS you use, so perhaps this problem doesn't effect you. And as I said before, paying customers deserve respect from Adobe. The two links below illustrate how other users feel. The first link is older which contains links to youtube video samples of the problems. Curiously Adobe merged the older discussions into one, and in doing so purged the links to the videos:

 https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-6-toning-curve?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5Bfilter_by%5D=all

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/tone-curve-still-broken-in-lr-cc2015-8?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5Bfilter_by%5D=all

FWIW I use both OS's equally heavily and could read they were both on Mac. I'm aware of both bugs (I actually helped Alan Harper diagnose the problem) and can only replicate one of them, and only after unusual use of the point tone curve. When it happens, Cmd Z fixes it. So yes, annoying to some, but minor irritations by comparison with the new Ref View feature. They'll be fixed in due course.

OmerV

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2017, 05:22:07 PM »

FWIW I use both OS's equally heavily and could read they were both on Mac. I'm aware of both bugs (I actually helped Alan Harper diagnose the problem) and can only replicate one of them, and only after unusual use of the point tone curve. When it happens, Cmd Z fixes it. So yes, annoying to some, but minor irritations by comparison with the new Ref View feature. They'll be fixed in due course.

I'm not being argumentative or want to be. But your suggestion of a fix, "Cmd Z," doesn't fix anything, it simply reverts. In using the custom point curve we are purposely making a needed adjustment that needs to remain. The thing is, getting to that needed adjustment is extremely difficult (I am wondering if we are discussing the same problem.)

What does "fixed in due course" mean? We've had this problem since September with the release of Sierra. In that time I've taken thousands of photographs which have needed to be imported first into ACR, made custom point tone curve adjustments and then import those same files into Lightroom. Is that a new Adobe work flow?

PS  You mention the Ref View feature which I never use, so to me issues with that mean nothing.

PPS You seem to have a connection to Adobe, so; I'm not anti-Adobe, and use Lightroom/Photoshop because I believe those are the best PP programs. But won't be an apologist, especially when paying.
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2017, 04:41:18 AM »

I'm not being argumentative or want to be. But your suggestion of a fix, "Cmd Z," doesn't fix anything, it simply reverts. In using the custom point curve we are purposely making a needed adjustment that needs to remain. The thing is, getting to that needed adjustment is extremely difficult (I am wondering if we are discussing the same problem.)

Adobe will assess each bug using a range of criteria. If it crashes the program or requires Lr to restart, it'll obviously rank higher than when users can simply undo their way out of the problem or re-apply a preset. How often users encounter it, how easy it is to fix - those are probably other factors. But their actual criteria are very hard to discern, and I can think of at least one stupid bug that hasn't been fixed since version 1 (on Windows it fails to display the full keyword list if you have a list of >2000 keywords). Here I've no feel for how easy it will be to fix, but the bug doesn't seem too painful - for most users. For you, obviously it is.

What does "fixed in due course" mean? We've had this problem since September with the release of Sierra. In that time I've taken thousands of photographs which have needed to be imported first into ACR, made custom point tone curve adjustments and then import those same files into Lightroom. Is that a new Adobe work flow?

By "fixed in due course" I mean it looks like they are acknowledged and I'd be surprised if these bugs aren't fixed in the next dot release.

Given my assessment of the their significance, that seems reasonable. I just don't think most Mac-based Lr users will be greatly affected by the tone curve bug. Maybe you have a special reason for applying custom point tone curve adjustments as a matter of routine, as you imply. But if someone came to me and said they were doing this, I would question such reliance on the tone curve. I have certainly encountered plenty of people who learnt Curves in Photoshop and carry this practice over into Lightroom, largely overlooking the Basic panel and trying to accomplish everything with the tone curve. But maybe there is some special requirement?

PS  You mention the Ref View feature which I never use, so to me issues with that mean nothing.

There aren't issues with it - it's a really good new feature that, for almost everyone, makes it worth upgrading, which is what this thread is about.

John

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2017, 12:27:09 PM »

Besides it not working with large files 36/42/50+mp....For some odd reason when I used the Print module, and if I did clicked Page Settings, it would send off a print. So the Page Settings tab allowed to edit, but forced off a print as well. 6.8 still does, as did a number of versions before.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2017, 02:36:07 PM »

Besides it not working with large files 36/42/50+mp....For some odd reason when I used the Print module, and if I did clicked Page Settings, it would send off a print. So the Page Settings tab allowed to edit, but forced off a print as well. 6.8 still does, as did a number of versions before.

This is strange. Is it happening only with large files? I have not experienced this with any of the LR CC subscription versions, on a Mac using El Capitan OSX 10.11.x. Most of my files are in the range of 25MP, but I do import some larger ones as well. It does not print unless I click "PRINT" (lower right bottom of the Print Module), or press the "PRINTER..." button beside it and click Print from within there.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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OmerV

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2017, 06:32:33 PM »

Adobe will assess each bug using a range of criteria. If it crashes the program or requires Lr to restart, it'll obviously rank higher than when users can simply undo their way out of the problem or re-apply a preset. How often users encounter it, how easy it is to fix - those are probably other factors. But their actual criteria are very hard to discern, and I can think of at least one stupid bug that hasn't been fixed since version 1 (on Windows it fails to display the full keyword list if you have a list of >2000 keywords). Here I've no feel for how easy it will be to fix, but the bug doesn't seem too painful - for most users. For you, obviously it is.

By "fixed in due course" I mean it looks like they are acknowledged and I'd be surprised if these bugs aren't fixed in the next dot release.

Given my assessment of the their significance, that seems reasonable. I just don't think most Mac-based Lr users will be greatly affected by the tone curve bug. Maybe you have a special reason for applying custom point tone curve adjustments as a matter of routine, as you imply. But if someone came to me and said they were doing this, I would question such reliance on the tone curve. I have certainly encountered plenty of people who learnt Curves in Photoshop and carry this practice over into Lightroom, largely overlooking the Basic panel and trying to accomplish everything with the tone curve. But maybe there is some special requirement?

There aren't issues with it - it's a really good new feature that, for almost everyone, makes it worth upgrading, which is what this thread is about.

John

You are eagerly minimizing these problems. And you are suggesting paying customers should wait on a $50 B company. Really? It doesn't matter which feature is used less or more. Unfortunately, the CC service is beginning to come off as a bait and switch scheme.
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hogloff

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2017, 07:20:18 PM »

Adobe will assess each bug using a range of criteria. If it crashes the program or requires Lr to restart, it'll obviously rank higher than when users can simply undo their way out of the problem or re-apply a preset. How often users encounter it, how easy it is to fix - those are probably other factors. But their actual criteria are very hard to discern, and I can think of at least one stupid bug that hasn't been fixed since version 1 (on Windows it fails to display the full keyword list if you have a list of >2000 keywords). Here I've no feel for how easy it will be to fix, but the bug doesn't seem too painful - for most users. For you, obviously it is.

By "fixed in due course" I mean it looks like they are acknowledged and I'd be surprised if these bugs aren't fixed in the next dot release.

Given my assessment of the their significance, that seems reasonable. I just don't think most Mac-based Lr users will be greatly affected by the tone curve bug. Maybe you have a special reason for applying custom point tone curve adjustments as a matter of routine, as you imply. But if someone came to me and said they were doing this, I would question such reliance on the tone curve. I have certainly encountered plenty of people who learnt Curves in Photoshop and carry this practice over into Lightroom, largely overlooking the Basic panel and trying to accomplish everything with the tone curve. But maybe there is some special requirement?

There aren't issues with it - it's a really good new feature that, for almost everyone, makes it worth upgrading, which is what this thread is about.

John

John...you nailed it exactly how bugs get prioritized and fixed. I managed a large product and we had quarterly meetings with customers that would prioritize known bugs and new features. It would amaze you how many bugs get filtered down and how many features get voted on to be implemented before the bugs...especially if the bugs are minor in nature and occur rarely.

Bottom line, resources are limited and I for one don't give a rat's azz about the bug being discussed so I vote to work in new features.
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ButchM

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2017, 09:50:07 PM »


Bottom line, resources are limited and I for one don't give a rat's azz about the bug being discussed so I vote to work in new features.

That's a very empathetic and tolerant attitude. Glad you hold your fellow Lightroom users in such high esteem.

While I agree that resources are do have limits, I have little confidence and less empathy for such a huge corporation that would tolerate such an attitude. If Adobe's back were against the wall and they were struggling to survive, I could get your point. Such is not the case.

It really isn't a lack of resources, it's a lack of will to get it right. Heck, how many engineers could be hired if they reduced the CEO's annual bonus by just 1 percent?
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kikashi

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2017, 03:31:44 AM »

It really isn't a lack of resources, it's a lack of will to get it right. Heck, how many engineers could be hired if they reduced the CEO's annual bonus by just 1 percent?

Well, according to www1.salary.com (and I have no idea how reliable that is, of course), Shantanu Narayen's "compensation" (what a wonderful term: we don't really use it over here) for the year ending 2015 was $995,404 base pay and $1,418,450 "bonus and non-equity incentive". So 1% of the bonus would be $14,184.50 and the answer to your question is "not many".

There's mention also of stock award of $15,851,410. It's not clear if that's a holding or an annual bonus. 1% of that would be $158,514.10, which might fund two or three good software engineers; but it's not cash and no doubt has some constraints on realisation.

I am aware that, carried away by rhetoric, you had probably given no real thought to what you were actually saying. Sometimes it's useful to consider facts, though.

Jeremy
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2017, 04:18:36 AM »

You are eagerly minimizing these problems. And you are suggesting paying customers should wait on a $50 B company. Really? It doesn't matter which feature is used less or more. Unfortunately, the CC service is beginning to come off as a bait and switch scheme.

Not "minimizing", but putting it into perspective. Why should your bug be fixed faster than those that do affect more people? Ever heard that fixes often have unintended consequences? Does yours merit a hotfix or should it be handled according to established procedures? How do you know if this one wasn't triggered by Sierra? Non-critical bugs are a fact of life with complex software - the difference between companies is often how openly they acknowledge and fix them.

ButchM

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2017, 08:40:59 AM »


There's mention also of stock award of $15,851,410. It's not clear if that's a holding or an annual bonus. 1% of that would be $158,514.10, which might fund two or three good software engineers; but it's not cash and no doubt has some constraints on realisation.

I am aware that, carried away by rhetoric, you had probably given no real thought to what you were actually saying. Sometimes it's useful to consider facts, though.

Jeremy

Sure, you can pick all the nits you wish ... but when we are discussing the value of compensation for a single individual employee in the neighborhood of $16M+ annually, it is proof positive that Adobe has ample resources at their disposal to apply to the effort, if they had the resolve to do so. They are not just 'getting by' ... I'll let you captain the drudgery of applying the correct semantics that you feel were unjustly applied by me to the discussion.

I don't mention the CEO's compensation to speak ill of the executive or think the amount is too much. I begrudge no one the ability to earn as much as they can. I only mentioned such to point out that Adobe's resources, while not infinite, are also not in any form should be considered meager.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:44:32 AM by ButchM »
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hogloff

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2017, 08:44:50 AM »

That's a very empathetic and tolerant attitude. Glad you hold your fellow Lightroom users in such high esteem.

While I agree that resources are do have limits, I have little confidence and less empathy for such a huge corporation that would tolerate such an attitude. If Adobe's back were against the wall and they were struggling to survive, I could get your point. Such is not the case.

It really isn't a lack of resources, it's a lack of will to get it right. Heck, how many engineers could be hired if they reduced the CEO's annual bonus by just 1 percent?

Butch, we've been down this road before and concluded your lack of knowledge of how large software is managed hurts your arguments. Let's just stop it here before you display this ignorance again.
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ButchM

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2017, 08:54:37 AM »

Butch, we've been down this road before and concluded your lack of knowledge of how large software is managed hurts your arguments. Let's just stop it hear before you display this ignorance again.

'We' have been down this road before? "We have concluded?"

Sir, I have no clue who you are. Therefore I have zero information to consider if your opinion on the matter is of any value whatsoever. Anyone can claim any expertise they wish anonymously on the internet. So you'll forgive me if I place the value on your advice it has earned.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2017, 09:04:06 AM »

Guys, quite frankly I think none of this latest tangent of the discussion contributes an ounce of value-added to the purpose of the thread. There is a competitive market for senior managerial talent and Corporate Boards need to pay compensation that will attract the quality they want. Whatever the CEO of Adobe gets paid, how they manage their QC/QA procedures is another matter altogether, and from the perspective of the users - us - the much more important one. I like to be results-oriented, because it is the results that affect my experience using their software and I know I'd be getting nowhere trying to pick the entrails of the input factors based on the little operationally significant information available to us. So may I suggest we take this discussion back to the technical questions of the application's usability?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rdonson

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2017, 09:29:53 AM »

Mark, I think you're correct.  It's time for this conversation to end.  Its way beyond its intended intent and serves little purpose but to provide a platform for bickering.
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OmerV

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2017, 09:46:59 AM »

Not "minimizing", but putting it into perspective. Why should your bug be fixed faster than those that do affect more people? Ever heard that fixes often have unintended consequences? Does yours merit a hotfix or should it be handled according to established procedures? How do you know if this one wasn't triggered by Sierra? Non-critical bugs are a fact of life with complex software - the difference between companies is often how openly they acknowledge and fix them.


Yes, I'm frustrated and ticked. And with all due respect, nothing you've said appeases me. So how do you know that Sierra triggered the problem? After all, both ACR 9.8 and Photoshop 2017 have, in Sierra, tone curve adjustments that work well, while in Lightroom that adjustment is a mess.

"Established procedures"? We both know one of the promised CC features was fast fixes. Come on, we are not talking about a mom & pop shop working out of a garage. Whatever negative publicity Adobe is getting, they own it.


PS  Nice photography.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2017, 10:00:54 AM »

Mark, I think you're correct.  It's time for this conversation to end.  Its way beyond its intended intent and serves little purpose but to provide a platform for bickering.

Hi Ron - well if not end it, at least contributors should bring it back to its original intent if there be more of value to add. :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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john beardsworth

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2017, 10:32:59 AM »

Yes, I'm frustrated and ticked....

Cheers. Why should it appease you - the problem obviously does affect how you use Lightroom - but I think one must keep a sense of perspective. The CC deal hasn't been to fix bugs immediately (it's tough to market bug fixing!), but to deliver new features every few months. Some bugs certainly merit an immediate bugfix, but that's only done in exceptional circumstances such as 6.6.1, and this tone curve problem doesn't seem to meet that high bar.

I only suggested Sierra because the problem appears to be limited to that OS. When I was helping Alan Harper, I couldn't reproduce it on El Capitan. Since I upgraded my Mac, I can. Also, to the best of my knowledge, I don't think Adobe have been doing any work on the point curve recently. So it might be that some perfectly-OK bit of Lightroom code has been broken. But one simply can't tell.

Mark D Segal

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Re: LR 2015.8 - Is it Bug Free?
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2017, 10:53:36 AM »

Cheers. Why should it appease you - the problem obviously does affect how you use Lightroom - but I think one must keep a sense of perspective. The CC deal hasn't been to fix bugs immediately (it's tough to market bug fixing!), but to deliver new features every few months. Some bugs certainly merit an immediate bugfix, but that's only done in exceptional circumstances such as 6.6.1, and this tone curve problem doesn't seem to meet that high bar.

I only suggested Sierra because the problem appears to be limited to that OS. When I was helping Alan Harper, I couldn't reproduce it on El Capitan. Since I upgraded my Mac, I can. Also, to the best of my knowledge, I don't think Adobe have been doing any work on the point curve recently. So it might be that some perfectly-OK bit of Lightroom code has been broken. But one simply can't tell.

Going back to the original question - "Is it Bug Free?" - the answer of course is NO. And you made a valid point early on about the extreme difficulty of producing software that is. In these conditions, I'm tempted to think that rapid bug repair could well be a valuable marketing point. Marketed properly, it would reduce peoples' expectations of getting bug-free software, but increase their confidence that once bugs are reported and acknowledged they will be fixed in a reasonable and roughly predictable time period. Now, you say you don't think Adobe has been working on the point curve recently - of course we don't know, but that almost isn't the issue. The real issue goes back to basics on the content of QA/QC procedures. Some of the things that have been happening over the past year or two raise a question in my mind about whether every function of the application - in particular the core ones in each module - are thoroughly retested with every OS and LR upgrade, including the recent OS versions behind it that remain supported. I simply don't know the answer to that question, but I think how "bug free" to expect an application partly depends on that answer. And by the way, this is a generic matter - many more vendors than Adobe are relevant. I think it leaves us customers with a choice of being in essentially one of two modes: (1) be an early adopter because you want to be on the front line helping the vendors clean-up the new releases, or (2) be a late adopter because you don't want the trouble and you're in no hurry. Sometimes I find myself in the one, sometimes in the other. It depends on a number of factors. But I don't expect out of the box perfection. I think it's important not to over-reach with one's expectations and then be frustrated.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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