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Author Topic: Can paper catch screens?  (Read 12746 times)

dreed

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Can paper catch screens?
« on: December 21, 2016, 07:19:40 am »

With the latest HDR10 screens becoming available it makes me wonder, will paper ever be able to catch video screens when it comes to the range of colours able to be displayed?

I suppose this seems a bit like trolling or an invitation or inflamatory, but are there new techniques (printers/inks/papers) that allow for the same visible range as a 4K TV?

Why would they be required? I look at some of my sunset pics and I can already see the difference between AdobeRGB and sRGB. When HDR10 monitors become more available and programs support that, I'm expecting to see just as big of a difference between AdobeRGB and HDR10. So where does that leave paper?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 08:04:35 am »

These are different media and each should be appreciated for what they offer. No matter the proliferation of electronic viewing devices, there is still something special that cannot be replicated about a well-made photograph on paper. That is why on this website we have a special focus on "Back to the Print". It is not simply nostalgia. Over the past decade the rate of improvement in inkjet technologies has been incremental - improving bit by bit year after year into what is now a mature group of technologies; doubtless this will continue along its own path, as will other vehicles for viewing photographs. I do not see it as a horse-race.
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dgberg

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 09:13:57 am »

I read an article recently about the demise of the once hot small digital displays. Sales fell drastically after the first couple of years.
When they came out they were a hot sell this time of year and now the retailers are saying they cannot give them away.
I am on the road in Indy and stopped by Roberts Camera to see and touch some of the new gear. (Hasselblad X1D looks amazing)
They had one of the Memento 35" Smart Frames for $900. It looks really cool but $900? Not sure they will sell very well.
It always comes full circle back to the print, always!

nirpat89

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 09:44:30 am »

So where does that leave paper?

On the wall without a power cord.... :)
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Ray Cox

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 10:02:47 am »

On the wall without a power cord.... :)


+1
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DeanChriss

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 10:31:31 am »

Like Mark I see no competition between prints and electronic displays. Prints can be held and passed down through decades or centuries looking the same as they did when created. Their look does not change with mat or glossy monitor surfaces, calibrations, or monitor resolution of the day. The ability to view a print does not depend on the viability of a given electronic storage media type, file format, or electricity (except at night). Prints cannot be produced instantaneously in thousands or millions of copies all around the world. The fact that a print is a unique physical thing gives it a value that the same image on a monitor cannot have.
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JRSmit

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 10:50:37 am »

With the latest HDR10 screens becoming available it makes me wonder, will paper ever be able to catch video screens when it comes to the range of colours able to be displayed?

I suppose this seems a bit like trolling or an invitation or inflamatory, but are there new techniques (printers/inks/papers) that allow for the same visible range as a 4K TV?

Why would they be required? I look at some of my sunset pics and I can already see the difference between AdobeRGB and sRGB. When HDR10 monitors become more available and programs support that, I'm expecting to see just as big of a difference between AdobeRGB and HDR10. So where does that leave paper?
I do fine art prints for a living. I have a 4k monitor and 4k television.
Television 4k (i have a 10bit HDR10 compliant sony) is quite inferieur to an 4k eizo monitor, in image quality when it comes to still images.
Even the eizo monitor falls short in getting the emotions the experience across to the observer.
So prints are still  superior.

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Jan R. Smit

Czornyj

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 10:55:23 am »

Why would they be required? I look at some of my sunset pics and I can already see the difference between AdobeRGB and sRGB. When HDR10 monitors become more available and programs support that, I'm expecting to see just as big of a difference between AdobeRGB and HDR10. So where does that leave paper?

Paper, AdobeRGB and sRGB are all apporx. in SDR range (8 stops). In the beginning new displays may have 1-2 stops of additional HDR effect:


Computer displays must become brighter and more contrast to take advantage of HDR technology potential, but then it will be difficult to get that look on paper. I guess we will nee some carbon nanotubes based vantablack inks :D
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 11:04:08 am »

The Frame mentioned above I just took delivery of.  While anyone that knows me knows I am a big advocate for prints.  But here as a dilemea and we'll see if this digital frame can help with it.  I have so many images and so little wall space.  This may be a solution to show a wide variety of my images in good quality playback.  The jury (me) is out but I'll explore this and and other manufacturers frame over the coming month.  The quality from what I see is pretty darn good though.  It impressed me enough to purchase it and try it.  I got the 35'' model with a black frame.  More as I get into it.  I see this as a way to compliment the prints I have and share more of my work. 
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dgberg

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 11:17:51 am »

The Frame mentioned above I just took delivery of.  While anyone that knows me knows I am a big advocate for prints.  But here as a dilemea and we'll see if this digital frame can help with it.  I have so many images and so little wall space.  This may be a solution to show a wide variety of my images in good quality playback.  The jury (me) is out but I'll explore this and and other manufacturers frame over the coming month.  The quality from what I see is pretty darn good though.  It impressed me enough to purchase it and try it.  I got the 35'' model with a black frame.  More as I get into it.  I see this as a way to compliment the prints I have and share more of my work.

Please report your thoughts after you get it up and running.
It is a beautiful piece of hardware with a great picture.

nirpat89

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 11:37:41 am »

Computer displays must become brighter and more contrast to take advantage of HDR technology potential, but then it will be difficult to get that look on paper. I guess we will nee some carbon nanotubes based vantablack inks :D
What about the cameras....are they already up to the challenge of capturing 18 stops? 
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Czornyj

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 11:48:22 am »

What about the cameras....are they already up to the challenge of capturing 18 stops?

You can capture as many stops as you want using bracketing. A modern digital camera with 14bit A/D converter can capture up to 14EV (up tu as many stops as bits), from which 11-12EV are practically usable
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JRSmit

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 12:04:41 pm »

Television are primarely used for film/video. Are the video cameras capable of 18 stops?
Or is the whole HDR10 a postprocessing of original video material to meet this HDR10 standard?
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Czornyj

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 12:45:56 pm »

Television are primarely used for film/video. Are the video cameras capable of 18 stops?
Or is the whole HDR10 a postprocessing of original video material to meet this HDR10 standard?

AFAIK present HDR standards are limited to 14 stops (that can be utilised dynamically, according to the technical limitations of the display), up to 6 stops more than omnipresent SDR standard. Camera with 16 bit A/D converter can possibly record 14 stops of usable DR, you can probably record such DR using two cameras, or - hypothetically - some tricks like electronic shutter interlaced bracketing or something alike.

A 14 stops HDR panel, with 4000cd/m^2 brightness and CR equal or bigger than 8000:1 (like HDR47ES4MB) displaying HDR recorded and rendered content may be potentially mind-blowing, 3D-spacious-reality-like looking. The difference might be way more significant than wide gamut or 4K UHD.
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nirpat89

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 01:02:04 pm »

Just wondering.  How many stops are there in a typical scene (not counting such instances as taking a straight picture of the noon sun with a black object in front of it.)  In other words, if one has a monitor capable of displaying 18 stops, what fraction of the time the everyday pictures will take advantage of the whole space. 
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rdonson

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 01:15:49 pm »

Like Mark I see no competition between prints and electronic displays. Prints can be held and passed down through decades or centuries looking the same as they did when created. Their look does not change with mat or glossy monitor surfaces, calibrations, or monitor resolution of the day. The ability to view a print does not depend on the viability of a given electronic storage media type, file format, or electricity (except at night). Prints cannot be produced instantaneously in thousands or millions of copies all around the world. The fact that a print is a unique physical thing gives it a value that the same image on a monitor cannot have.

Well said!  The physical print is also unique in that its reflected light rather than emitted.  A good print will also outlast any display made today.  Displays have their place but are NOT a substitute for a print in my work. 

Not sure why this question keeps popping up.  Too much eggnog this time of year?   ;D
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Czornyj

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 02:14:09 pm »

Just wondering.  How many stops are there in a typical scene (not counting such instances as taking a straight picture of the noon sun with a black object in front of it.)
Virtually each outdoor scene exceeds typical SDR range (8EV): 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value#/media/File:Exposure_Value_Scale_Visualized_as_Circles.png
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nirpat89

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 02:32:47 pm »

Virtually each outdoor scene exceeds typical SDR range (8EV): 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value#/media/File:Exposure_Value_Scale_Visualized_as_Circles.png
Excellent...thanks for the link.  Learning a lot on this thread even though it started seemingly with a provocative question.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 03:41:18 pm by nirpat89 »
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DeanChriss

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 03:30:11 pm »

...
Not sure why this question keeps popping up.  Too much eggnog this time of year?   ;D

I've got nothing against eggnog, but seriously... I think the question arises so often because there's a tendency to look at things in purely technical terms. In those terms newer generally means better - more DR, wider gamut, better d-max, etc.. That neglects the role of art in the mix. There are old silver gelatin,  platinum, and palladium prints made in darkrooms of days past that are gorgeous. Some still make them. If I always wanted the best possible technical qualities I'd always use a gloss or semi-glossy paper, but some images need a more subtle look, perhaps on a warm mat finished paper instead of a bright glossy one. Technically the d-max and gamut may not be as good but that very fact may make the mat paper "best", depending on the way one wants to visually interpret the scene. For me the visual interpretation is what printing and photography in general is about. If I could duplicate the brightness levels of an actual sunset I wouldn't do it anyway. I'm not sure it's a good thing to make people squint when they look at a print or a display. OTOH if duplicating reality rather than interpreting it is the goal then full speed ahead!
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FabienP

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Re: Can paper catch screens?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 06:18:07 pm »

8K TV sets will mark the return of the good old slide projector in homes. It was about time! As much as I like prints, I missed a large, high resolution & wide gamut transparency rendering of photos.

As for prints, there will certainly be a few of them in every home for the foreseable future. What worries me, though, is that entry level photo printers such as 13" and 17" models might be relegated to a niche product and will become too expensive for hobby photographers. High volume printers will likely not be affected by this trend.

This would be like finding a dedicated film scanner in the present market. Ten years ago, they were ubiquitous and there were many models to choose from, even middle range models. Now only a few high-end Imacons and drum scanners survive in pro processing facilities.

Cheers,

Fabien
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