Epson P800 - Installing Cartridges with Little Ink

[BradSmith]

I seem to remember a discussion here recently warning about something like the following:   If you want to replace an empty cartridge with a used cartridge that has relatively little ink left in it, the printer may not let you do it if it senses there is a small amount of ink in the replacement cartridge.  Or am I dreaming???  I've looked but can't find anything like that.

thanks
Brad Smith

[unesco]

I haven't tried with P800 yet, but with 3880 I could easily replace a cartridge with another one having 3% of ink (according to epson status monitor). Done many times. The case when there might be some trouble happens when your printer would like to make some cleaning or black ink swap.

[dgberg]

The carts weigh between 75 and 90 grams when they stop printing. (60ml when drained empty) Upwards of 15 to 30ml of ink is left.
The other night I drained 32 ml from a P800 cart that would no longer print.
Epson loads them with 90ml based on the weight when new and full. You are supposed to get 80 but 65 to 70ml is all you will have acess to.
Right now I am draining all ink out of the P800 carts and putting it in bottles waiting for P800 refillable carts.
I use all OEM inks on my 3880, 9900 and 9880. I drain the ink from carts that I purchase and carts that will not print because the chip registers them as empty and load it into my refillables. I have reclaimed upwards of 10,000 ml of ink this way so "DO NOT" throw away those carts. $15 worth of usable ink left in those carts, get refillable and use it up.

[Mark D Segal]

The carts weigh between 75 and 90 grams when they stop printing. (60ml when drained empty) Upwards of 15 to 30ml of ink is left.
The other night I drained 32 ml from a P800 cart that would no longer print.
Epson loads them with 90ml based on the weight when new and full. You are supposed to get 80 but 65 to 70ml is all you will have acess to.
Right now I am draining all ink out of the P800 carts and putting it in bottles waiting for P800 refillable carts.
I use all OEM inks on my 3880, 9900 and 9880. I drain the ink from carts that I purchase and carts that will not print because the chip registers them as empty and load it into my refillables. I have reclaimed upwards of 10,000 ml of ink this way so "DO NOT" throw away those carts. $15 worth of usable ink left in those carts, get refillable and use it up.

Hi Dan,

This is very disturbing. As far as I know we are supposed to be buying 80 Ml of USABLE ink. If this were not the case Epson needs to do something about it; otherwise the ambiguity would deserve corrective action of one kind or another. BTW, do you know what the specific gravity of the ink is? Depending, it could affect the accuracy of your conversion between weight and volume. For avoidance of all doubt perhaps Epson should sell the ink by the gram rather than the ml, and publish the weight of an empty cartridge.

[Czornyj]

Hi Dan,

This is very disturbing. As far as I know we are supposed to be buying 80 Ml of USABLE ink. If this were not the case Epson needs to do something about it; otherwise the ambiguity would deserve corrective action of one kind or another. BTW, do you know what the specific gravity of the ink is? Depending, it could affect the accuracy of your conversion between weight and volume. For avoidance of all doubt perhaps Epson should sell the ink by the gram rather than the ml, and publish the weight of an empty cartridge.

Mark, it's very easy to check the ml amount and ml weight with a beaker. The Ultrachrome K3 HDR ratio was 1,08mg per ml according to this video:
http://petapixel.com/2015/09/11/this-is-how-much-ink-the-epson-9900-printer-wastes/

[BradSmith]

....The case when there might be some trouble happens when your printer would like to make some cleaning or black ink swap.....

Thank you.  The black ink swap problem is what my fuzzy brain had partially remembered.
Brad

[Mark D Segal]

Mark, it's very easy to check the ml amount and ml weight with a beaker. The Ultrachrome K3 HDR ratio was 1,08mg per ml according to this video:
http://petapixel.com/2015/09/11/this-is-how-much-ink-the-epson-9900-printer-wastes/

Sure, I hope I didn't imply it was difficult - just nice that someone else took the time, trouble and expense to actually do it and find out. :-) And the outcome is that one is dealing with yet less ml than the mg measurement suggests. Ugh.

Now, on that video - nice find by the way - if Bellevue were actually throwing away cartridges because the printer said there wasn't enough ink to do a cleaning, then indeed they were wasting ink and Epson's response to reload the old cartridge was correct advice. In fact it says so in the manuals I've used. I also found that one can make a great many prints with these reloaded cartridges, so the really important question that neither the video nor Epson addresses unambiguously is how much ink remains in those tanks once the printer simply stops printing ONLY because the printer declares the cartridge *empty* (nothing to do with sufficiency for cleanings), and hence allowing one to unambiguously determine how much USABLE ink one is buying for printing. In other words, you use their formula on a full new cartridge, use it again once the printer stops because it is declared *empty* and see how much USABLE ink was consumed. If it were systemically less than the stated volume on the box, then the stated volume should be explicitly defined in USABILITY terms or amended. I would have also liked to see Epson answer the conclusion of the Bellevue video, to the effect that the printers are not reporting remaining volume correctly and indeed forcing cartridge changes based on erroneous data. It would also be interesting to know why a cartridge with at least 100ml ink in it is not adequate to perform a cleaning, which is said to use very little ink. I believe Epson has also stated in the past that some ink must remain in the cartridge for technical reasons (how much was not stated), but we shouldn't be concerned about this as long as the amount we're buying is defined in terms of USABLE volume, not total volume. I think a substantive response to Bellevue, of whatever content, would have been deserved. This of course is a very old issue and really should have been settled one way or another by now. I wonder, has it been?

[howardm]

Here is a note from my ink usage/inventory spreadsheet for my 3880.  I had previously computed a specific gravity of 1.04g/mL so my #s jive well w/ petapixel.  I have no idea how people get 80 out of the carts.  In fact, usually, even if the nozzle check is good and I try to do a print w/ a very low cart, I'll get a print that I can line the bottom of my bird cage with since that low ink will screw up (probably from insufficient pressure).  I just assume I'm going to actually be able to get 70-75mL out of a cart, not the 80 advertised.  Maybe it's time to break out my old graduated cylinders.


12/2015:  Nozzle check stopped because yellow was low.  Weighed 84g, opened cart and measured 19g of ink remain, assuming 10ml ink for safety, we get 75g for a fully empty cart.

[Czornyj]

This of course is a very old issue and really should have been settled one way or another by now. I wonder, has it been?

Not at all - see page 20:
http://www.designsupply.co.uk/blipdfs/Canon%20PRO-2000%20vs.%20Epson%20SC-P7000.pdf

[JeffS]

Hi Dan,

This is very disturbing. As far as I know we are supposed to be buying 80 Ml of USABLE ink. If this were not the case Epson needs to do something about it; otherwise the ambiguity would deserve corrective action of one kind or another.

Jon Cone has been using this information for years as an important distinction between his Epson replacement ink system (now including color) and the standard Epson ink set. I don't recall the exact percentage, but I think he found that something like 5-10% of ink remains in Epson cartridges after the machine stops printing due to low ink.  I may have read at some point that part of this is to protect machine inner-workings, but clearly the rest is waste. I have no idea if this is similar to Canon or other machines.

Jeff

[Czornyj]

I have no idea if this is similar to Canon or other machines.

Canon has retention ink sub tank system, so it dries out ink carts completely.
(again - see p.20: http://www.designsupply.co.uk/blipdfs/Canon%20PRO-2000%20vs.%20Epson%20SC-P7000.pdf )

[Randy Carone]

howardm,
In all my years of printing with Epson's - 2200 to 3800 and now a SC-P800 - I have printed until the printer stopped and changed the cart. This sometimes happens mid-print and there is no way to tell where the printer stopped. Before I retired I sold many Roland, Epson and Canon printers up to 64" wide. I once had a customer let his printer beep from Friday to Monday afternoon when his Yellow cart arrived. He called me to say he doubted my advice and was blown away by the fact that he couldn't see a line on his 15 foot banner that he assumed was ruined. If you have noticed bad results from low ink you may need a new pump in your ink delivery system.

[howardm]

Randy,  if that is the case, then I'm going to shoot the damn 3880 since it really does not have sufficient time or usage on it.  I already lost a 3800 and I'll be !$^@%& if I'd let Epson get another $1000 from me for a replacement or some big repair.

Usually, it happens if I re-install a cart that is very low (that was removed because of a auto nozzle check).

This printing thing really tests my patience (which is low to begin with).

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Randy,  if that is the case, then I'm going to shoot the damn 3880 since it really does not have sufficient time or usage on it.  I already lost a 3800 and I'll be !$^@%& if I'd let Epson get another $1000 from me for a replacement or some big repair.

Usually, it happens if I re-install a cart that is very low (that was removed because of a auto nozzle check).

This printing thing really tests my patience (which is low to begin with).

Howard,

My own experience perfectly matches Randy's: 2200 and 3800, now replaced by P800. On two occasions, early in my ownership of the 3800, I ran out of ink in the middle of a print that was supposed to go into an exhibition, late on a Friday of a three-day holiday weekend. Both times, when I finally got a replacement cartridge, the printer started right up and I could not tell where the ink change occurred. After the second time I finally got in the habit of keeping a complete spare set of inks available, just so I wouldn'e be at the mercy of shopkeepers' schedules.

Now I never change an ink unless the printer won't print.

I have also reinstalled low carts after putting in a temporary replacement for a nozzle check or cleaning cycle. No problem. And so far the P800 seems just asa reliable.

Eric

[howardm]

our experiences differ.  I'm not saying it's a 100% thing but I've lost 2-3 13x19 due to it.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

our experiences differ.  I'm not saying it's a 100% thing but I've lost 2-3 13x19 due to it.

Yes, they differ. The only 13x19s I've lost have been the direct result of my waiting much too long (many months) before doing a nozzle check. Once a print comes out that is really ghastly, I tell myself to do that nozzle check more often than once every six to eight months.

Hubris on my part. I have resolved to do better with my P800.
Hmmm. I set up the P800 in October. Maybe I should do a nozzle check some day soon ...   

I'm sorry you haven't been as lucky as I have.

[Wayne Fox]

i've replaced epson ink cartridges when the printer stops and refused to print until an ink change dozens of times over the past several years.  Never seen any issue.

[Mark D Segal]

i've replaced epson ink cartridges when the printer stops and refused to print until an ink change dozens of times over the past several years.  Never seen any issue.

Likewise.