Ink left out in the cold?

[Benny Profane]

I ordered a set of inks for the P800 from B&H, and they're scheduled to arrive Monday eve. I'm thinking of heading up to Vermont to ski for a few days, leaving before the box arrives. Does the collective think that the inks will be harmed by cold temps, as they sit outside for a few days?

[Mark D Segal]

Oh my goodness - EXACTLY my question today for Epson 4900 inks. Different situation - my order, placed here in downtown Toronto was supposed to have been delivered four days ago. It has not yet arrived thanks to the inefficiency of Purolator, and won't be delivered till Monday because they screwed-up getting the package from point A to point B right within the City of Toronto. It has been "on delivery" all that time. So my question - if it's been sitting in one of their trucks all this time, will the ink be frozen and will it be usable. I have no answer, so I'm cancelling that order and getting fresh supply that I shall collect myself once I can get my car out of the snow. So yes, I'm interested in an answer to this question also: (a) does the ink freeze, and (b) if so, can it be used after defrosting?

[JayWPage]

It's a problematic situation for sure, one that is best avoided if possible. I put in an ink order to Epson in the fall specifically just to avoid this happening even though it's unlikely that a few degrees below freezing will have any effect. The chemistry of ink is surprisingly complex and many of the chemicals (i.e. acetone, ethanol, glycol, etc.) that are mixed with water in the ink formulation will, I think, be quite effective in depressing the freezing point of inks.

A few years ago I bought an Epson 3880 from the Camera Store in Calgary during the Boxing week sale and it got delayed (3 - 4 days) while being shipped over New Years during a cold snap. Temperatures were in the -15C range during that time period. I phoned the Camera store during that delay to express my concern, they said they had never had a problem shipping inks during the winter in Alberta. When the printer arrived, the courier (Purolator?) driver said that the loaded truck was parked over New Years in a secure and heated warehouse and that while, yes the contents would get fairly cold while being transported, they were never in "deep freeze" conditions.

After the printer had warmed up for a few days, I gave all the inks a light shaking before installing them. As far as I could see, there didn't seem to be a problem that could be directly attributed to "freezing". But curiously enough, the PK black cartridge always seemed to be prone to clogging. Certainly worse than any of the other cartridges and worse than any subsequent PK blacks I have installed. So maybe "clumping" of the particles in a pigment ink may be a concern during cold temperatures.

This was discussed in LL a couple of years ago: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=86056.0

And another link: http://smallbusiness.chron.com/printer-ink-freeze-58638.html

Regards,
Jay

[Garnick]

I ordered a set of inks for the P800 from B&H, and they're scheduled to arrive Monday eve. I'm thinking of heading up to Vermont to ski for a few days, leaving before the box arrives. Does the collective think that the inks will be harmed by cold temps, as they sit outside for a few days?

Hi Benny,

I think I have an answer for you, but perhaps not exactly the one you want.  Last Feb. I had a bit of work done on my 9900 by a fellow who actually trains the techs.  He is the expert on all inkjet printer systems and has worked for most of the manufacturers at some point.  He was referred by Treck-Hall and did an excellent job, very efficiently.  To my great surprise this fellow actually lives about a 25 minute drive form my business, so the whole experience moved along very quickly.  Since I am now in the process of moving my business to my home, I was originally planning to move the 9900 there as well.  All of that would be happening next month, so obviously I had exactly the same concern you have raised.  I got in touch with my tech friend and he assured me that the inks would be good to -10C, which eased my mind somewhat.  I have since decided to downsize to a P7000 and the tech has a very good lead on a buyer for the 9900.  If that possibility happens to fall through I will be putting the machine on this forum sometime in Jan.

Please excuse my long-windedness Benny, but I hope this info will help.

Gary     

[DeanChriss]

I have no specific data but over the previous 7 winters I ordered plenty of Epson 7900 ink. I've always had the same question about freezing, never got a good answer, and never had any problem. I do make sure to let them warm (usually overnight) to the room temperature of the printer and agitate them well before installation.

Edit: I'm sure some of that ink was outside on my doorstep for 4-6 hours in temperatures lower than -10°C (+14°F).

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Benny,

I think I have an answer for you, but perhaps not exactly the one you want.  Last Feb. I had a bit of work done on my 9900 by a fellow who actually trains the techs.  He is the expert on all inkjet printer systems and has worked for most of the manufacturers at some point.   


Gary   

Hi Gary,

I know him - if he says the inks are good to 10 below (I'm assuming Celsius as we're in Canada) its reliable information. Thanks for sharing that.

[Wayne Fox]

Playing a little devil's advocate here, not to doubt a reliable tech, but does he have a source for his statement?  The ink cartridges themselves specifically state do not store the cartridge in freezing temperatures. -10c at night is pretty normal for many climates, we hit that frequently (- 11c is the low for tonight in Salt Lake.)

I'm assuming the glycerol in the solution acts like it does in antifreeze. To not freeze at -10c would mean a glycerol to water ratio of about 30%-70% or a little more.  The safety data sheets are sketchy as they list all of the ingredients as approximate, but it appears the glycerol concentration isn't that high.  Certainly there are some other ingredients that might alter the freezing point, but not sure.

(Also wondering if it is possible that freezing or prolong storage in freezing temperatures might  alter the ink properties in a detrimental way that isn't obvious visually when printing?) 

Before leaving it on the porch in subfreezing temperature over the weekend, I think I'd find a neighbor to pick it up for me.

[howardm]

You have the tracking #?   contact whichever carrier to hold and deliver another day.

[Mark D Segal]

Playing a little devil's advocate here, not to doubt a reliable tech, but does he have a source for his statement?  The ink cartridges themselves specifically state do not store the cartridge in freezing temperatures. -10c at night is pretty normal for many climates, we hit that frequently (- 11c is the low for tonight in Salt Lake.)

Fair enough Wayne. The 4900 cartridge packaging I have says to store the ink in the same conditions as the printer: +10 to +35 C. This must be conservative, so I suspect what we may be seeing here is the difference between manufacturer's official prudence and technician's operational experience gained from his own observation and informal discussion he may have had with a variety of people in the course of his work. Perhaps Gary or I could get in touch with him if he's around just now and see what more he may have to say.

[Benny Profane]

Thanks all for thinking about this. That's the problem with B&H one click shopping late at night. Poof, and then you have to consider the details. I'm not going to take a chance with almost 600 dollars, so I'll wait for the package before I have fun. If I delay it, then it drops into the black hole of holiday time scheduling, so, get it in the door and nice and warm and toasty, to be safe.

[Wayne Fox]

The 4900 cartridge packaging I have says to store the ink in the same conditions as the printer: +10 to +35 C.

Here's what the p9000 inks have on the label.  Pretty much says the same thing as +10 to +35, but seems to be a little more emphatic by the use of the word freezing.  not sure if that was  intentional for a reason or just some label writer feeling it was clearer than using temperature's, or maybe simply felt it was more universal since "freezing" means the same thing in any country regardless of which system they use).

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks Wayne! Yes, freezing has a universal meaning. Tell me about it, as winter has struck Toronto with a vengeance  :-) .
What a mess outside, and we're in for some black ice tonight; nothing worse for driving, forget about the Epson ink! :-(

[DeanChriss]

Looking at a new ink cartridge here I see it says the ink should be stored "under the same condition as the printer (temperature is 10 to 35°C and humidity is 20 to 80%)". I wonder if Epson makes this statement so people do not put ink cartridges into the printer that are significantly different in temperature than the cartridges already in the printer, or the printer itself. I can't imagine it would be good to put an ink cartridge that is at 10°C into a printer that is at 35°C, for instance. Thermal expansion of the ink within the pressurized system alone could screw things up.

If the statement implies that the ink is damaged if those conditions are exceeded, then the ink must be protected from the time it leaves the manufacturer (Indonesia in this case) to the time it arrives at your door. Between trucks baking in the Indonesian sun, container ships, warehouses, and cross country and delivery trucks I can't imagine how anyone could guarantee that these conditions were never exceeded.

Interesting topic...

[Garnick]

Thanks Wayne! Yes, freezing has a universal meaning. Tell me about it, as winter has struck Toronto with a vengeance  :-) .
What a mess outside, and we're in for some black ice tonight; nothing worse for driving, forget about the Epson ink! :-(

Hi Mark,

I could not agree more concerning our present weather situation.  Not a good time to be driving, although I did drive to work(27km) early yesterday morning.  Of the few automobiles on the roads there were also a number of what I call "creepers".  That descriptions refers to those who may have never experienced this sort of driving condition, in which case I understand.  But I do believe that some people just do not like to be on the road under such conditions, in which case they probably shouldn't be there, for their own good as well as others.  It's difficult to discern what those drivers are thinking or what they might do next, so best to stay clear as much as possible I believe.  This is the first year I've installed 4 winter tires and I've seen a very discernible difference within the past few days, very positive.  Hope you received my novelette this morning ;^)

Now to the "freezing ink" situation once again.  One thing I forgot to mention in my first reply.  When I asked the tech about the possibility of moving the 9900 in what might possibly be sub zero conditions, he did indeed tell me that the inks would be good to -10C, considering that the move would not take an extended amount of time.  With no major complications the actual exposure time to low temps would be probably about two hours max.  So as you see, he was not referring to an exposure of perhaps overnight or longer to such temps.  He knew my case and offered the appropriate information.  And as Mark mentioned, he knows his business.  When he was setting up to do the print head replacement on the 9900 last Feb., he said he could do it with his eyes closed.  Even though I was totally certain he could, I urged him not to do so, to which offered a hearty laugh.  In all, it took approximately 20 minutes, including the identification procedure and alignment, and I was back in business.  A very professional approach and result.

Gary   

[bns]

I just got a SC-P800. The Dutch user manual states: storage temp before unpacking -20 to +60 degrees C and after unpacking -20 to +40 degrees C and operating +10 to +35 degrees C.

Cheers,
Boudewijn Swanenburg

[Mark D Segal]

Very useful, thanks.

[Doug Gray]

Ran across this from the Epson 9800 Service Manual on page 144:

Ink doesn't freeze above -10C.

Ink completely frozen (stored at -20C) takes 3 hours to completely thaw at 25C and should not be installed until completely thawed.

The packed 9800 can be stored  from -30C to 60C. High temp for prolonged periods to be avoided. Not to exceed 5 days at 60C or one month at 40C.

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks Doug, that's clear, tangible information. Now I wonder whether we'd get that "Arctic Feel" from a print made with frozen ink  (Like ice-wine, ya know?)

[Mark Lindquist]

From the standpoint of the ink freezing then thawing and eventually using, I would be troubled that the pigment which is in suspension becomes separated during freezing, and when thawed, what's to say it is recombined and held in similar suspension as before freezing?

I guess once the roads were cleared, one could take the ink down to the local paint store and put the cartridges in an empty paint can and run them for a half hour in their "shaker".

I think prudent planning and tactics trump any kind of remediation.  I have 2-3 sets of inks in storage for just this purpose - to avoid shipping during the winter.  I would be suspect of the ink Mark, without having any assurances that it has not been frozen, particularly as your testing requires unquestioned accuracy.

FWIW/YMMV

Warmest regards,

Mark

[Mark D Segal]

I would be suspect of the ink Mark, without having any assurances that it has not been frozen, particularly as your testing requires unquestioned accuracy.

FWIW/YMMV

Warmest regards,

Mark

Fair enough - I haven't used defrosted inks yet - as far as I know. If I have any reason to suspect changed behaviour it's easy enough for me to run a quick accuracy test relative to previous known conditions and see whether anything has changed.