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Author Topic: Some astounding photos  (Read 18741 times)

N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2016, 11:14:58 am »

Maybe it is more easy to agree that pollution due to fueled cars harms the local climate....
and that it is sensible to search for other kinds of energy than burning carbon rich fuels...

Of course. But we already have that source. Nuclear. It is used very effectively in Europe. In the US it is stagnant thanks to the same people who advocate the Chicken Little response to global warming.

There are other similar absurdities in response to global warming theory. The west seeks to cut down its carbon foot print. Fine. But at what cost? At the same time, the west expects the emerging east to follow suit. How hypocritical is that? We, the west, create the problem (if we agree there is a problem) in order to achieve the economic and technological status we enjoy now and then have the nerve to tell the emerging east that they should not achieve similar levels of economic and technological welfare using the methods that we used. Subsequently China and India pay mere lip service to it. To compound the absurdities, the west then presumes to continue down this path, which has no real data to support it and which, statistically is meaningless anyway if the emerging economies do not adhere.

It is all a real mess, based on marginal science and fueled by wealth redistribution ideology. And virtually nowhere on either side of the discussion does much common sense or objective logic prevail.
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George

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RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2016, 11:22:13 am »

+1
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2016, 11:43:59 am »

"Climate Change Deniers" is a term that climate ideologues use to stifle conversation. It has taken on the same mantle as accusations of "racism". Both are identical to McCarthy's "communist".

Er, no it isn't. There's a great deal of data that shows a rapidly warming climate, one that is warming at a far faster rate than ever before. The thing with science - it changes in light of new data, which makes it the antithesis of ideology. Those people who ignore the data (aka 'facts') are the ones most likely to be ideologues. Climate change denial is of a kind with young earth creationism; mind made up, please don't confuse with facts.

RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2016, 12:03:47 pm »

Well, then I won't confuse you, Bill, with the fact that the "planet" has been cooling for roughly 14 years. We wouldn't want facts, or the confusion that emanates from them to run rampant among "ideologues."
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kers

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2016, 12:04:29 pm »

Of course. But we already have that source. Nuclear. It is used very effectively in Europe. ....

Yes it was especially effective in Europe near Kiev and also in Japan;  Fukushima...,
also we still do not know what to do with the waste and to dismantle a nuclear plant cost astronomical...
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Pieter Kers
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RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2016, 12:04:48 pm »

Actually, this whole discussion should have been posted under "A Touch of Humor."
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MattBurt

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2016, 01:41:57 pm »

Amazing photos! Also some sad (yet still beautiful) ones.

Since I'm not a climate scientist I need to rely on them to use their expertise to collect and analyze the data.
Many non-scientific anecdotal arguments in either direction ("it snowed today so global warming is a lie" or "it should have snowed today so global warming is true") really add nothing to the discussion. We need a better picture through good data and good analysis to cut through all the BS and emotional arguments. That's called science and it's the only objective way we have to figure this kind of thing out. Therefore I'm going to go ahead and agree with the 97% of climatologists who believe global warming is strongly linked to manmade CO2 emissions.

That is also why I go to the doctor if I'm truly sick or injured instead of just trying to figure it out myself.
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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2016, 02:11:06 pm »

Yes it was especially effective in Europe near Kiev and also in Japan;  Fukushima...,
also we still do not know what to do with the waste and to dismantle a nuclear plant cost astronomical...

Yes, this exposes the kind of thinking that lead to the problem we're in. It's called "wishful thinking". You want clean zero cost energy for a burgeoning population and emerging economies. Maybe if you wish enough it will come true? Of course not. All forms of energy will have a cost and a risk.

The truth is coal and petroleum based energy have killed millions, probably many, many more over the last 100 years. In 65 years there have been a grand total of two significant nuclear incidents and the death and sickness caused by the two is statistically insignificant when compared to what fossil fuels have done. Storage of nuclear waste has caused no significant harm to date. But I suppose you will have neither fossil nor nuclear and you will expect the world to run on just what, exactly? Let them eat cake?

Until the extreme environmentalists have an answer then nuclear remains the only sustainable option. And until then the environmentalists should simply be quiet since they offer nothing other than platitudes.
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George

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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2016, 02:36:25 pm »

Er, no it isn't. There's a great deal of data that shows a rapidly warming climate, one that is warming at a far faster rate than ever before. The thing with science - it changes in light of new data, which makes it the antithesis of ideology. Those people who ignore the data (aka 'facts') are the ones most likely to be ideologues. Climate change denial is of a kind with young earth creationism; mind made up, please don't confuse with facts.

This is the typical response. And is so deeply flawed and fabulously ironic. If you deny man made climate change you are ignorant and closed minded. If you believe the "facts" you are smart, tolerant and open minded..............unless and until what you believe about climate change is challenged. Then you become dogmatic, utterly closed minded and intolerant.....kind of like a religious fanatic. Priceless.

But let's look at two points in question here:

First, the "climate change denier" moniker. You, in this very response, have proven my point perfectly. (Thank you.) If you are a "denier" then you are a nut, kind of like people who believe the earth is 6000 years old and who form opinions that are not based in "facts". Therefore, if you question climate change you cannot be taken seriously. Conversation over. No tolerance for wackos. So it seems clear that I hit that nail right on the head. Thanks for your assistance.

Second, let's talk about your "facts". Just what exactly are they? How did we get them? What do they tell us? What are we to do about them? If we do something about them will it help? And no, you may not dodge any of these questions if your assumptions are that climate change science has given us facts that undeniably show that the global climate is warming at such a rate and to such a level that it is clear that it is man made AND that this effect will be injurious to mankind and the planet AND that there is something we can do about it AND that you, or anyone else knows what that something is AND that you know that the costs and risks of doing that outweigh the costs and risks of doing something else. Otherwise, you need to drop the pejorative attitude about people who still harbor concerns that we are not quite sure about the science, we don't know what the implications are, we don't know if we caused it or not, and we do not know what to do about it if even all the rest is true.

Now, all that is generalization. If you'd like to talk about the specific "facts" that make anyone who denies them a cave man, then let's have them. But be prepared to be open minded.....or be prepared to be called ignorant and dogmatic. That's only fair, right?
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George

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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2016, 02:45:17 pm »

.
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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2016, 02:50:22 pm »


Since I'm not a climate scientist I need to rely on them to use their expertise to collect and analyze the data. [/qoute]

That's fine. But throughout this process you need to ask yourself how far you are prepared to take this belief.

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Many non-scientific anecdotal arguments in either direction ("it snowed today so global warming is a lie" or "it should have snowed today so global warming is true") really add nothing to the discussion.

Quite right. But it points to the elephant in the room. How long have we been recording reliable global climate trends? Answer, less than 200 years. Probably less than 100. Just like a warm day in February in Maine, 200 years of actual hard data are statistically insignificant when it comes to global historical trends. All the other historical data is largely contrived and based on consensus and is not verifiable by experiment or hard data.

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We need a better picture through good data and good analysis to cut through all the BS and emotional arguments.

Quite right, but that ship has sadly and surely sailed.

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That's called science and it's the only objective way we have to figure this kind of thing out.

People tend to use the word "science" as if they are invoking some sort of deity. As if it is some uniform thing which cannot vary or be manipulated; as if "Scientists" are always or even mostly objective. None of this is true. Yes, it is the best tool we have. But in the case of climate change if the best tool you have for driving a nail is a screwdriver, that's fine, just don't call it a hammer.

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Therefore I'm going to go ahead and agree with the 97% of climatologists who believe global warming is strongly linked to manmade CO2 emissions.

That's fine. Just don't check your brain at the door and don't trade your $1000 for what is behind curtain number two unless you know what you're trading for.

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That is also why I go to the doctor if I'm truly sick or injured instead of just trying to figure it out myself.

That's fine too. but just keep in mind that what your doctor did 20 years ago for problem 'a' might be consider malpractice now. Again, trust.......but verify.
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George

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MattBurt

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2016, 03:45:49 pm »

Science is just a process to get the best explanation we can. The explanations will change as new data comes to light but the process to collect and test that data is a very well-tested and proven methodology.

You are welcome to disagree but like I said I'm going to side with the experts using a process that has answered countless questions over hundreds of years better than another method. If a better scientific method comes along and it can be proven superior to what we have I'm sure the scientific community will adopt it.

To many of us who do agree with the overwhelming consensus among experts, the deniers are either just demonstrating their lack of scientific literacy or they are being delusional. No amount of nay saying without some scientific consensus will change that. Probably similar to how "scientific mumbo jumbo" isn't going to change the minds of the truly dedicated denier.

But how 'bout those pretty photos, eh?
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2016, 04:30:36 pm »

I'll just leave this data from NASA* here.

* Yes, I know, NASA are a front for the lizard alien overlords, Jewish bankers, Free Masons & the Illuminati, all part of the New World Order, so just ignore this.

kers

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2016, 04:31:00 pm »

....
Until the extreme environmentalists have an answer then nuclear remains the only sustainable option. And until then the environmentalists should simply be quiet since they offer nothing other than platitudes.

Oil Companies like Shell are now starting to invest seriously into wind and solar energy; Most modern made buildings have a surplus of energy that can be used.
More and more the wast energy of the industry is being used to warm private homes.
Investors loose their interest in oil for they see it is a dead end.
We are moving towards an electric era fed by clean energy. This is now and not the future.
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Pieter Kers
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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2016, 05:40:02 pm »

I'll just leave this data from NASA* here.

* Yes, I know, NASA are a front for the lizard alien overlords, Jewish bankers, Free Masons & the Illuminati, all part of the New World Order, so just ignore this.

And the point of this graph is what? Can you explain what a "global land ocean temperature index" is? If you can, how was it derived? If it was derived in a statistically sound fashion AND if it is correct AND the approximate 1 degree C change in this index in the last 100 years is significant to global cultures and economies it STILL says nothing about its cause and nothing about what we need to do about it.

I am perpetually amazed how people who beat the drum of scientific objectivism will still look at two phenomena and connect them causally without adequate evidence to support causality.
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George

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MattBurt

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2016, 05:46:28 pm »

And the point of this graph is what? Can you explain what a "global land ocean temperature index" is? If you can, how was it derived? If it was derived in a statistically sound fashion AND if it is correct AND the approximate 1 degree C change in this index in the last 100 years is significant to global cultures and economies it STILL says nothing about its cause and nothing about what we need to do about it.

I am perpetually amazed how people who beat the drum of scientific objectivism will still look at two phenomena and connect them causally without adequate evidence to support causality.

I agree with your point.
Since we are (probably) not climate scientists here, maybe we should see what the climatologists think! In peer-reviewed and accredited publications of course. To filter out the junk science and confirmation bias.
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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2016, 05:47:07 pm »

Oil Companies like Shell are now starting to invest seriously into wind and solar energy; Most modern made buildings have a surplus of energy that can be used.

This is wonderful. We need to do more of it.

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More and more the wast energy of the industry is being used to warm private homes.

Wonderful too. We need to explore every option and avenue. Diversity of energy sources is crucial from an environmental and social perspective.

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Investors loose their interest in oil for they see it is a dead end.

You are welcome to speculate. But right now, and for the rest of your lifetime, you're simply wrong about this one.

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We are moving towards an electric era fed by clean energy. This is now and not the future.

This is an absolute delusion. There is simply no evidence to suggest that this is true unless by clean energy you mean nuclear. We are decades from significantly moving away from fossil fuels. And there is simply no way, physically or economically that wind and solar can provide the energy deficit if nuclear and fossil fuels are taken out of the equation. It is simply wishful thinking and nothing more. Ask India. Ask China. Ask Russia.
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George

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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2016, 06:06:06 pm »

Science is just a process to get the best explanation we can. The explanations will change as new data comes to light

Of course.

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but the process to collect and test that data is a very well-tested and proven methodology.

This is incorrect. Climatology is nothing without trends. Climatology models will not function without trends. Global temperatures for the last 150 years are meaningless in regard to historical global climate trends. So they substitute a great hodge-podge of criteria on which to extrapolate climate conditions for the thousands of years needed to establish trends. Mush of this criteria is based on consensus and not hard, verifiable data. Nest to anecdote, consensus is probably the weakest science of all.

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You are welcome to disagree but like I said I'm going to side with the experts using a process that has answered countless questions over hundreds of years better than another method.

This is where you and so many others make a fundamental mistake. You view 'science' as a monolithic set of rules and methods. Nothing is further from the truth and there is a vast difference between the sort of scientific method that gives us Newton's calculous or Einsteins work or even the applied sciences that give us useful new compounds and the work that climatologists do. To see them as similar is to be gravely mistaken.

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If a better scientific method comes along and it can be proven superior to what we have I'm sure the scientific community will adopt it.

History has shown that you are right. History also shows that such adoption will typically be achieved only with a great deal of kicking, screaming and angst, often taking decades.

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To many of us who do agree with the overwhelming consensus among experts, the deniers are either just demonstrating their lack of scientific literacy or they are being delusional.

Again the pejoratives! Why? Why must people who disagree, based on scientific principle be ignorant or delusional? If the science is solid there is no need to be defensive. No need to stereotype or demean.

By your assessment I would be either be lacking in scientific literacy (I am not, I have a doctorate) or I am delusional. I am not. Could it be that there are thoughtful and sane people out there who can see the glaring inadequacies of climate change research? Who can agree that it is the best science that we have but also see that it lacks the certainty required to use it to change laws, cultures and societies? Must we be lumped with 'new earthers' 'flat earth's' and moon landing deniers? If your answer is yes, you're exposing your own intolerance and religious-like faith in science you don't understand.

And let's make no mistake about it: People who believe that the current status of climate research is rock solid and sufficient to base global policies on who also don't understand and haven't sought to understand the science ARE JUST AS BAD as those who deny climate change without understanding why. It is the SAME thing.

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Probably similar to how "scientific mumbo jumbo" isn't going to change the minds of the truly dedicated denier.

Again, this presumes that those who question the current status of climate change are incapable of understanding the science. This is the very definition of bigotry.

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George

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MattBurt

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2016, 06:28:16 pm »

I didn't say science is "monolithic set of rules and methods" or that climatology is "rock solid". I do not believe either of those things, exactly.
What you describe sounds more like technology than science. Much of science is scientific method which is a pretty rigid methodology but I do realize that isn't all of it.

I do believe that what we have now with climatology is our best shot at being correct with our current tools and data. Much more so than any other voice weighing in on the issue which typically have a good incentive to refute those conclusions.

But to answer your question, it does sound like you have some science education, so that's good.

You can make a good Internet forum argument too, but I have not yet changed my mind on the issue.
When scientific consensus supports your position I'll be more likely to take it seriously. Without that consensus is might as well be anti-vac, flat-earth, faked moon landing, or whatever.
Many people pushing those ideas don't consider themselves delusional either.

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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2016, 07:05:31 pm »

And let's make no mistake about it: People who believe that the current status of climate research is rock solid and sufficient to base global policies on who also don't understand and haven't sought to understand the science ARE JUST AS BAD as those who deny climate change without understanding why. It is the SAME thing.

Straw man. No researcher claims to have rock solid knowledge, and no one said so here. The research is on-going of course, but a picture seems to be emerging, and is being fine-tuned all the time, that humans are having an impact by creating a rapid rise in CO2 that cannot be mitigated against by changes in the biosphere in a reasonable time frame. To that extent, doesn't it make sense to implement policies that seek to avoid the mistakes of the past? Why would you wait, given the decades-long lead times involved in making those changes? It is a given that those changes will have to be fine-tuned as we go along, because new information will emerge with time. This is how we do everything.

And the argument that these societal changes cost money are pointless unless you also take into account the cost of not doing them.


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