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Author Topic: Some astounding photos  (Read 18652 times)

RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 12:08:25 pm »

Great stuff, Peter. Thanks.
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luxborealis

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2016, 01:27:19 pm »

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Chairman Bill

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2016, 02:35:58 pm »

Some superb images there, and some really quite saddening ones amongst them. Climate change deniers won't understand.

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2016, 03:46:25 pm »

Some superb images there, and some really quite saddening ones amongst them. Climate change deniers won't understand.
+1.
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Ray

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2016, 06:49:32 pm »

Some superb images there, and some really quite saddening ones amongst them. Climate change deniers won't understand.

I've never met a Climate Change denier. I would imagine such a person would be very ignorant on climate matters, and would be the sort of person who thinks that climate is always constant and benign and that any change in climate must be due to mankind's destructive activities.

On the other hand, perhaps the term 'Climate Change Denier' is a mischaracterisation which refers to those who have a healthy skepticism about the significance of the role of CO2 in the current warming period, which is similar in temperature to previous warm periods such as the Medieval Warm Period and the Roman Warm Period.

If this is the case, one might wonder how any intelligent person could believe in any evidence on climate matters which is presented by people who so blatantly and misleadingly mischaracterise a healthy skepticism about the effects that CO2 might have on climate, as a denial that the climate is changing. Climate is always changing, and always has changed throughout history.  ;)
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RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 07:27:42 am »

Climate is always changing, and always has changed throughout history.  ;)

Exactly, Ray. And for the past fourteen or so years climate has been changing in a cooling cycle. My favorite uncle was a geophysicist, and his wife, my favorite Aunt was a geologist who was head of the geology department at University of Houston. When I was in my twenties both were convinced we were on the verge of a new ice age ("verge" being expressed in geologic time, meaning we all were going to be long gone by the time it arrived). They never used the term, but at the time the new ice age was "settled science." So much for climate deniers.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 08:02:38 am »

Yes, the earth's climate is constantly changing. We keep having this pointless fact lectured to us as if it's a new idea. Tell me, do you honestly think that the world's climate scientists don't already know this? Do you honestly think that today's climate models and new data aren't better than what we had 40 years ago?
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RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2016, 09:43:44 am »

Hi Robert, Yes, I think the world's climate scientists realize that the climate is constantly changing, and reading what various climate scientists have written, it's clear that the idea the earth is warming, and warming dangerously as Algore would have it, is a long way from "settled science."

As far as today's "climate models" are concerned: NO, I don't think they're better than what we had 40 years ago. They're nothing but "models." As I wrote, sixteen years ago, in "A Common Cause" (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/commoncause.html):

"The efficacy of any correct algorithmic process depends on two things: the validity of its premises and the validity of the data fed into it. The premises almost always are unprovable. They are arbitrary perceptions of reality arrived at through a mind leap that suspiciously resembles faith. The data need not only be accurate, they need to measure what the algorithm purports to deal with. Without valid premises and valid data a process may be quite valid and work perfectly well, but at the same time produce garbage."

We've seen a whole series of garbage outputs from climate models and there's no reason to think the situation will improve. The models' premises are suspect and the data being fed into them are shaky at best. Weather forecasting has improved tremendously since I was flying fighters in the early fifties and sixties because of radar and satellite observations, but weather isn't climate.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2016, 09:56:56 am »

There is EVERY reason to assume that the models have improved and will improve. The question is, and always has been, how human action has perturbed the biosphere's equilibrium. It is important to know that. We will find that out the same way we've discovered everything else, including how airplanes fly, by conducting research and not by relying on gut feelings and entrenched ideology. Humans did not stop acquiring new knowledge just because some of us got old(er).

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RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2016, 10:34:32 am »

We all get old(er), but that doesn't improve the premises upon which our "models" are based or the validity of the data being fed into them. The premises and the data just get older, not better.
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kers

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2016, 11:01:55 am »

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Chairman Bill

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2016, 11:51:54 am »

Exactly, Ray. And for the past fourteen or so years climate has been changing in a cooling cycle. My favorite uncle was a geophysicist, and his wife, my favorite Aunt was a geologist who was head of the geology department at University of Houston. When I was in my twenties both were convinced we were on the verge of a new ice age ("verge" being expressed in geologic time, meaning we all were going to be long gone by the time it arrived). They never used the term, but at the time the new ice age was "settled science." So much for climate deniers.

New data = scientists changing their mind. But experts & facts, eh? You can prove anything with facts, and we've had enough of experts. Or something.

RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2016, 02:51:09 pm »

Now, now, Bill, you're acting like a climate denier.
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Telecaster

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2016, 04:15:15 pm »

Total waste of time & space here. Folks are too psychologically and emotionally dug in. Confirmation bias and backfire effect to the max. IMO another example of the human species running up against its own limitations.

Anyway, the parameters of the cosmos, including those of our climate system, are what they are. They neither know nor care about anyone's tribalist regurgitation or Worldviewâ„¢ pontificating.

Better to just chill and enjoy this lovely Hubble telescope photo:



The three galaxies are part of a cluster ~400 million light years away. The largest of the three is ~100,000 light years in diameter, about the same size as our Milky Way.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 04:30:26 pm by Telecaster »
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luxborealis

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2016, 05:51:12 pm »

Some superb images there, and some really quite saddening ones amongst them. Climate change deniers won't understand.

Yup, Bill is proven correct, yet again!
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Ray

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2016, 07:47:42 pm »

There is EVERY reason to assume that the models have improved and will improve. The question is, and always has been, how human action has perturbed the biosphere's equilibrium. It is important to know that. We will find that out the same way we've discovered everything else, including how airplanes fly, by conducting research and not by relying on gut feelings and entrenched ideology. Humans did not stop acquiring new knowledge just because some of us got old(er).

On very complex issues there is often the trend, 'the more we know, the more we realize how little we know'.

I find it very bizarre that any scientist could truthfully express certainty about the effects of rising CO2 levels on global warming when even the causes of the previous, most recent change in climate, The Little Ice Age, are not fully understood.

Suggested causes of the previous cooling period include, changing orbital cycles around the sun, low sunspot activity, volcanic eruptions, changes in ocean circulation, decreases in human population in certain areas, increases in human populations in other areas at high altitudes, and/or the inherent variability of climate.

All of those factors might have had a role, including other (so far) unknown factors. Calculating the magnitude and interrelatedness of such factors with any certainty does not yet seem possible, but one fact does seem certain; the current warm period is generally more benign than that bloody awful cold period of The Little Ice Age.  ;)

Here's a nice wikipedia article for those who are interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
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N80

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2016, 09:14:06 am »

"Climate Change Deniers" is a term that climate ideologues use to stifle conversation. It has taken on the same mantle as accusations of "racism". Both are identical to McCarthy's "communist".
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George

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kers

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2016, 11:02:45 am »

Maybe it is more easy to agree that pollution due to fueled cars harms the local climate....
and that it is sensible to search for other kinds of energy than burning carbon rich fuels...

Unlike Bejing we have in Holland a lot of wind coming from the seaside, making our problems less acute...

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Pieter Kers
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RSL

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Re: Some astounding photos
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2016, 11:09:05 am »

That's like people who talk about "climate change deniers," Pieter. They have a lot of wind.
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