Using Photo Black Ink on Matte Paper?

[tectao]

I have tried to google this question with no results so i'm turning to this forum.

I have always printed using  Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl with my Epson 4880 using Photo Black Epson ink.  A client wants me to use an Epson Hot Press Bright which is considered a matte paper.  I prefer not to change to Matte lack ink to reduce wast and would prefer not to recommend a matte paper since that is what they are partial too.

So, what is the downside to using Photo Black ink with matte paper?

[unesco]

The result will be not worth trying. Blacks will be dark gray. Epson H/C Press papers are in particular designed to work with K3 inks of x880 to give outstanding blacks (better than any other matt fine arts) so your path will be a waste of PK ink and paper.

[Mark D Segal]

The result will be not worth trying. Blacks will be dark gray. Epson H/C Press papers are in particular designed to work with K3 inks of x880 to give outstanding blacks (better than any other matt fine arts) so your path will be a waste of PK ink and paper.

I agree with you that it's a bad idea; most likely to produce very unsatisfactory results. But what's your evidence that Epson H/C Press papers with K3-MK give matte blacks that are "better than any other matt(e) fine arts"? That's quite a claim; you've tried them all and found some of kind of objective way to make this assessment? I'd be interested to know the details. 

[tectao]

Thanks for the reply's.

I am relativity new to digital paper choices.  Although I've been printing on the 4880 for a number of years and the 1800 prior to that, I generally use Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl or Epson Glossy, so starting to use matte paper is new.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything I've been reading is that matte paper and PK ink is not good?  The reason being the matte paper doesn't give a deep black using PK. 

But what I am printing on matte is either Photo Montage or in this case, scanned mixed media pieces.  So it is more printing illustrations rather then photographs.  So the rich black needed for a good black and white or color photograph is not as necessary.  When I print photography I use the two papers mentioned above.  I have never been a fan of matte paper for photography.

It is the client that likes the Hot Press Bright.

And I have not read anything regarding the process and the waste of ink if I were to change out PK to MK. 

So I guess my last question would be what damage is there to using PK on matte other then possible loss of image quality.  Will it damage my printer?  Will the ink not set well into the matte paper?

Thanks you for your comments.

[Mark D Segal]

The ink will not react well with the paper, and there could be blotchy uneven results. These inks and papers were deliberately formulated for each other and it is generally recommended not to mix them up unless you have some special artistic reason for doing so. You shouldn't be concerned about the cost of switching inks if you are doing this for a client, provided you've priced-in such overheads to the cost of your services. It can come out more expensive if the results disappoint and you need to do it over again. But you can always experiment and find out for yourself.

Another consideration - however, a note of caution in this advice as I'm not sure how this works on a 4880 given that it is a very dated printer by now - but the choice of the matte paper in the driver may not even allow you to avoid the ink switch, in which case you would need to fool the driver by selecting a non-matte paper as the Media Type, which may cause other problems because the ink-laydown/printer performance adjusts according to the Media Type, so selecting a Media Type way different than the paper you are feeding into the printer could cause more departures from expectations.

[unesco]

Good points above Mark, I fully agree.

I agree with you that it's a bad idea; most likely to produce very unsatisfactory results. But what's your evidence that Epson H/C Press papers with K3-MK give matte blacks that are "better than any other matt(e) fine arts"? That's quite a claim; you've tried them all and found some of kind of objective way to make this assessment? I'd be interested to know the details.

Yes, I have tried virtually all matt fine art papers available in Europe except of Canson (Epson, HM, Harman, new cotton Ilfords, full range of Tecco, Fomei, Sihl, Solution) with my 3880 and now try with P800.

Because, I am rather B&W printer, I mostly print using QTR and Epson OEM inks (but now moving with 3880 to Piezography), thus I had to measure all of those papers to make QTR curves. L* values for K3 and all of them were between 18 to 20 (I have not tried ABW since I do not like it for K3, but it's much better for P800) except of Epson Hot/Cold Press which easily achieves L*=16 or even less on 3880, and it is easily visible.

Epson dedicated those papers for K3 MK ink, to make black blacks, it is very different paper than all other rags I have tried. Production process of hot pressing the pulp seems to be different than for other papers too. This is the only cotton that you can easily write on both sides with a pencil, as there would be no coating.

I love it, and hate it - since its price in Europe in 2x higher than in US. And it shines with P800 inks even more with L* down to 14.

[Mark D Segal]

OK thanks - that provides more context for your comments. There are a number of matte papers and inksets that produce L* down to the range of 14-16, so we won't see much distinction between them at a statistical level, but at a perceptual level this is a different story and the approaches need not cohere, which doesn't make the perception any less valuable - in fact it is key, so your experience with this is useful.

[howardm]

The OP may want to try Innova Semi-Matte which is pretty matte (but not completely) and it's PK.

[unesco]

OK thanks - that provides more context for your comments. There are a number of matte papers and inksets that produce L* down to the range of 14-16, so we won't see much distinction between them at a statistical level, but at a perceptual level this is a different story and the approaches need not cohere, which doesn't make the perception any less valuable - in fact it is key, so your experience with this is useful.

Modern inksets is another story: P800 or Pro-1000 MK inks are so good that they equalize matt papers and L*15 is nothing special for them. Hot Press is an exception as for old K3 ink so x800 and x880 printers it was designed for.

On the other hand, perceptually, when I printed Hot Press using the new P800 I was blown out, both color and BW. I couldn't believe that matt fine art print can be so extraordinary and spectacular just with canned Epson profiles. So, even in modern time, it is my favorite paper.

[Mark D Segal]

The OP may want to try Innova Semi-Matte which is pretty matte (but not completely) and it's PK.

Not a bad idea, but seems as if the O/P's client has already decided what paper they want. The Innova does have OBA content, but so does Epson Hot Press Bright. However, the latter is cotton rag and the former Alpha Cellulose, so a bit different at least in that respect.

[langier]

On the other hand, why not try a sheet with the PK? It may or may not be acceptable to your client, but in my experience, when you need to print an image or two and don't have the time to swap the PK for the MK, the prints are usually fine for many people. The black won't be as rich on matte paper as swapping it to the MK and printing but it still may be fine.

If you do need the richest black you can get on your paper, you do need to swap the blacks and get that rich, velveting MK on matt paper, but in a pinch...

Ditto with MK on coated paper. It works but expect a gloss-differential that appears much like a spot-varnish for the deepest blacks that may or may not work with your image.

[Damir]

While I had access to Epson 9800 i printed some high key images with photo black on matte paper without any problem. I never tried tht with images that have strong blacks.

[Randy Carone]

unesco, CPNW, CPBW, HPNW and HPBW are all coated on both sides. According to Epson all have multiple coatings on both sides with the obverse possibly having one less coat. I have tested this with very demanding images and found no difference in the result.
tectao, I'm not certain about the amount of ink used on the ink switch for the SC-P800 (which I just bought to replace a workhorse 3800), but here are the numbers for the 3800/3880 ink switch. An Epson 3800/3880 uses 1.52ml (~$.85) on the PK to MK switch and 4ml (~$2.25) on the MK to PK switch. I would certainly make the recommended ink choice for paid production. Give your customer the best product you can make, regardless of whether he/she thinks your product is adequate.

[danvsjr]

This may not mean a thing at this point, but I have been printing to the old Epson Enhanced Matte paper using Photo Black on a 9600 for years with good results. The 4800 was using the same ultra chrome inkset, but I do not know about the 4880. Also do not know if my comment has any relevance for the paper you are using. The old ultra chrome inkset does not produce the nicest gloss output.