v700 wet scanning without a tray

[Endeavour]

Hi
If I were to buy an epson V700 scanner for my 4x5 film, would I absolutely need the fluid mounting tray or will I be able to get just as good results wet mounting directly onto the scanner bed?

[Mark D Segal]

The scanner was designed such that the fluid mount accessory sits higher than the scanner bed, and there is no user-controllable focusing with this scanner model.

[Endeavour]

Thanks for clearing that up Mark

Damn B&H wont ship the fluid mount tray to Canada. grrr

[Mark D Segal]

You got me to haul out some materials and do a test - so hang on a bit.

As for B&H, I just checked their website and saw they no longer sell the V700. Neither does Vistek here in Toronto. It is a discontinued model replaced by the V800. It is 1079 from Vistek, and about 935 in CDN-equivalent from B&H; however the B&H website says that neither the scanner nor the FMA can be shipped to Canada. So it looks to me that unless you find a used V700 or a left-over somewhere, you are stuck with buying a V800 here in Canada and can buy the FMA with it.

[Mark D Segal]

Theory is one thing, reality is something else. I'm using an Epson V850, not a V700 so there could be differences of performance, but I just scanned a 120-format rectangular B&W negative in SilverFast 8, one rendition on the scanner bed and the other using the FMA. See attached screen grab viewed from Photoshop at 100% magnification. It's hard to see any difference at this size - both are pretty sharp. In fact the one without using the FMA may be a tad crisper, but this is hair-splitting. I also tried up-sampling and enlarging both and the conclusions are the same - 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other. So maybe you don't need the FMA after all. You could try with and without on whatever model you end-up buying and keep the FMA if you see any advantage to it.

[Endeavour]

wow thanks mark. I appreciate the test.

I was only looking at a V700 because one has come up very cheap used, but has no holders. If I was going to buy new, then I would be getting a V800 (dont see the need to pay fore the 850 for what I need - minimal 120 & mainly 4x5 only)

[Mark D Segal]

My only caveat is whether there would be any difference between what I obtained using a V850 and what you would obtain using a V700. I simply don't know the answer to that one.

[Endeavour]

accepted

just as a matter of point, vistek dont seem to sell the FMA

[Mark D Segal]

It's not on their website, but either they can order it from Epson, or you can buy it from the Epson Store: https://epson.ca/Accessories/Scanner-Accessories/Fluid-Mount-Accessory-for-V800-V850/p/B12B818272

[Doug Fisher]

Scanning off the bed using the wider field of view lens of the scanner is going have a similar possibility of non-optimal focus point/film suspension height just as scanning with the fluid mount using the narrow field of view lens (Epson calls it the high resolution lens), so either one of your scans may or may not have been optimized to the particular lens in your scanner.  Every scanner off the Epson assembly line seems to be slightly different in terms of optimal film suspension height and why I incorporated variable height into my holders and mounting station (which Epson later copied on their holder but not mounting station).  If you tested and found an improvement by adjusting the film suspension height on your medium format holder, you most likely need to adjust the height of your Epson mounting station too.

If the original poster has found a killer deal on a 750, I would seriously consider purchasing that if it seems in good shape and tests well.  The V8xx series didn't upgrade the optics from the V7xx.  No doubt the underside of the glass bed needs a cleaning by this point.  Fogging of the glass bed due to out-gassing of the plastic parts over time is very common.  I have put up some exploded diagrams of the recent Epson scanners here that can help guide disassembly for cleaning:

http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/dismantling.html

Doug

[Mark D Segal]

If you are talking about the two sample scans I posted, I believe the choice of lens happens automatically within the scanner, as the scanner and SilverFast recognize when the FMA is being used or not. But you are right to the extent that even the results are comparable, it doesn't mean either result is necessarily the best achievable. If I look at that negative with the aid of an aspherical loupe, I notice there is very fine detail the scanner doesn't collect in either scan, even though on the whole the results are "pretty good" in both. This could well be because neither the scanner bed nor the FMA are at the optimal height, or it could be limitations of the illumination and optical systems. 

[Endeavour]

thanks both

looks like the v750 deal has fallen through, so I am back to researching.

final scans are going to be printed as well as web display

[Mark D Segal]

Not many affordable options for 4x5 format. One thing you may wish to consider is setting up a DSLR-based "scanning" system. https://luminous-landscape.com/scannerless-digital-capture-and-processing-of-negative-film-photographs/

[Endeavour]

Not many affordable options for 4x5 format. One thing you may wish to consider is setting up a DSLR-based "scanning" system. https://luminous-landscape.com/scannerless-digital-capture-and-processing-of-negative-film-photographs/

you're not wrong. After the Epson's at just over $1000, there seems to be a huge gulf to the next option of used creo's or precision II etc (and that's if you can find any for sale or be sure they're gonna work) or $22,500 for a brand new flextight X1 :/

I'm not sure I have the patience to do DSLR based scanning, unless it's going to give me superior results to the V800/V850

[Mark D Segal]

Actually, using a camera requires less patience than using a scanner, once you get the set-up right. It's pretty easy from that point onward: position the media, click and process.

[Doug Fisher]

>>I believe the choice of lens happens automatically within the scanner, as the scanner and SilverFast recognize when the FMA is being used or not. <<

Interesting.  I did not know Silverfast had added an automatic switching function.  It still requires manual intervention with EpsonScan and Vuescan.

Doug

[Ernst Dinkla]

>>I believe the choice of lens happens automatically within the scanner, as the scanner and SilverFast recognize when the FMA is being used or not. <<

Interesting.  I did not know Silverfast had added an automatic switching function.  It still requires manual intervention with EpsonScan and Vuescan.

Doug

Hello  Doug,

I did not see a reference to your wet mounting film holder in this thread. IMHO a better alternative for the Epson one for several reasons; film mounted underneath the glass, precise adjustment of the holder's height for focus and more. Delivered to Canada too I would assume.

On the dual lens system and focus for both, I guess the original Epson concept was that the lens that covers the full width of the scan bed is focused lower to the bed than the lens that covers the 15 cm wide center over the length of the scan. At least Epson had that choice when they designed the V700/750 etc models and they provided that flimsy foil mask (Film Area Guide) for 8x10 film laid on the scanner bed itself, while the other holders keep the film higher and their film area widths stay within said 15 cm. For films wider than 15cm the wider, shorter, focal length lens should be used. A wet mount holder for 8x10 film would be possible too with the film clinging to the underside of the glass and hanging only a fraction above the scan bed itself but still with height+ adjustment as the deviations on focus per scanner is still there, in worst case below the glass bed which asks for other measures. Using the scan bed itself for wet mounting has its dangers, fluid creeps into the cover sides and can harm the white strip inside that is used for reflective scan calibration.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Mark D Segal]

The straightforward information on this appears on LSI's website:

<Note on the Dual Lens System: For transparency mode, the Epson Perfection V850 features two different focus levels. Select scan mode "Transparency", if you want to use a filmholder. In this case, the focus of the scanner optics is precisely adjusted to the film holder. Use scan mode "Wide Transparency" only, if you want to place transparent originals directly on the flatbed. >

Sorry, I mistated: the choice only happens under the hood with SilverFast once you choose the Transparency setting, which is very easy - in the upper left corner of the interface in the dialog for film mode and frame settings, one selects either Transparency or Wide Transparency as recommended above. Then the scanner selects the lens appropriate to that setting.

I tested the difference it makes with four high-res scans - 1800 PPI input, providing an approximate 13*19 inch scanned photo at 300PPI output resolution:

(1) Wide Transparency WITH the FMA (considering it the same as a frame); - wrong combination
(2) Wide Transparency on the Flatbed - correct combination
(3) Transparency WITH the FMA - correct combination
(4) Transparency on the Flatbed - wrong combination

I reduced contrast and increased midtone brightness on this B&W negative of a dark object, so I could see detail very clearly. The photo is of an ebony wood carving, where the fine striations in the wood make a good test of fine detail reproduction. I scanned this 120 sized negative in 16-bit TIFF, so enlarged to 100% in Photoshop the resulting scans would show differences of fine detail rendition. Done this way, one readily sees that using the correct combinations provide better results than using the wrong combinations, as shown in the screen grabs. below, with the image expanded to 100% magnification in Photoshop, no sharpening either at the scan or output stages.

This once again confirms that with this scanner, one may use the flatbed or the FMA and obtain very similar results provided the settings are correct, very easily handled in SilverFast.

[Mark D Segal]

Oh - and I forgot to mention: I used NO fluid mounting. The negative is flat enough that it's not needed. I just laid the negative on the glass and scanned. Fine detail rendition is pretty good (Epson V850) with the correct settings.

[Endeavour]

just to update this thread

I went ahead and bought an Epson V800. I'm really happy with it. The detail I am getting with vuescan is great.

i havent tried fluid mounting yet. I might order the accessory tray from Epson. (Why the hell does that tray have a $5.00 environmental handling fee on it? its just a bit of plastic and glass :/ The scanner itself I can understand, but the tray on it's own?)