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Author Topic: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomena?  (Read 55400 times)

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2016, 12:26:06 pm »

Bart N80 is making some sense to me, though, not sure how we went to the ice age... :-)
He is explaining about the exact thing that you are trapping your idea with. At least from what I am reading.

You are mixing an apples and oranges comparison....
When doing an experiment, you can NOT use correlation as a founding premise to ANY quantifiable scientific data. Not just a mention that it may not.
That is  something you can do in abstract, and create theories and models. You CANNOT apply such things when they are disproved by observational science, the core and the foundation of empirical evidence.

I think you have so much knowledge Bart that you are beyond the normal levels of science perhaps, but this may have detached your connection of what science is, something we can observe and repeat in a lab, where ever you may choose that lab to be. Science that gives us facts are based on *repeatable observation.


You know. As photography, and landscape photography in particular, the knowledge and open minded discussion could not occur in any better place, and thats why I posted this here.  I think, as long as we can freely think and share our observations, and experiences personally, we can have an amazing discussion with some many people. I am hoping to have a constructive discussion, so while I enjoy humor very much, I enjoy critical thinking much more.
Preset agendas, or "what I learned is absolute" can really slow it down. We cannot take theories in science as observable absolutes in all things. While they may come from great thinking minds, this doesn't mean some ideas are off, or wrong, or not disproved.


This video should NOT tell you anything about the earths shape, BUT
there are things that you will reject, or if you understand some of these things at the fundamental level, you will find it at the least INTERESTING.
I had put a wrong time in the video link!
I forgot to say to not watch all of it for this discussion, so we can concentrate ont his part....
https://youtu.be/p2QmEcDydzQ?t=6m42s
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 07:38:57 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 12:31:54 pm »

The link I posted is critical in understanding why his hypothesis is incorrect.

Ummm, he is not claiming or making a hypothesis.

If you are using "hypothesis" as a defintion to observational science, which is the foundation to empirical evidence, it maybe good to clear these things up first.

You cannot disprove repeatable observation. This is the backbone and the foundation of science.
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Telecaster

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 03:18:20 pm »

The objective of science isn't to prove anything. It's to weed out BS. Claims that don't hold up to amassed evidence and critical scrutiny get tossed. This brings you closer to an accurate view of the nature of things, but you never get all the way there. Any "truths" established along the way are provisional, subject to revision or even dismissal via additional data & analysis.

Climate science, like all science, is iterative. More data is gathered and evaluated, models get further refined, understanding is improved. But, as I've written about elsewhere here, because this particular branch of science directly impacts economics and therefore politics and therefore ideology (the great Achilles Heel of the human species) it's become surrounded by a thick cloud of radioactive noise. Some of this IMO is the fault of some of the scientists. Much of it is due to the usual merchants of doubt. But it was bound to happen regardless: as I've also written about here, we humans suck at long-term thinking & planning. If necessary, any coordinated & sustained response to unambiguously negative climatic change will happen only when our backs are up against the wall. Short of that we'll do the usual can kicking. Or maybe we'll get lucky and our basic understanding of chemistry & thermal dynamics will turn out to be wrong. (I'm being sarcastic.) None of this is an excuse for head-in-sand-ism, just an acknowledgment that humans be fvgged up. People care more about maintaining the belief systems they've constructed (or adopted) to make sense of the world than they do about whether or not these systems actually describe the world. This is just how it is.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 03:21:27 pm by Telecaster »
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schertz

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 04:19:05 pm »

I'm not sure I want to get into a drawn out discussion about whether the original video's creator has biased assumptions regarding the "experimental" set-up but there are starting assumptions which are not properly accounted for.

1) Earth Curvature: The earth is not a perfectly spherical object, and not all area's are equally "round", for example, the earth has a larger radius at the equator than at the poles.
2) Light travels linearly: As photographers we should understand that light doesn't really always travel in a straight line, depending atmospheric disturbances (heat etc) and focus errors could make the measurements fairly inaccurate)
3) Localized gravity and "Sea Level": I don't agree with where the video creator placed the "actual sea level" horizon in the video, rather than just where is was convenient to agree with his hypothesis (he hand waved away the difference as being "waves and swell"). Also the annotated sea level and actual "sea level" can be quite different (i.e. tides) and "sea level" might not mean what you think is does (especially in relation to measuring the heights of mountain peaks).
I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q65O3qA0-n4

Mike
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Farmer

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 04:20:58 pm »

Ummm, he is not claiming or making a hypothesis.

If you are using "hypothesis" as a defintion to observational science, which is the foundation to empirical evidence, it maybe good to clear these things up first.

You cannot disprove repeatable observation. This is the backbone and the foundation of science.

Of course it's a hypothesis.  It's a proposition to explain an observation based on limited evidence. i.e. "my lines line up so the Earth is flat".  So, nothing needs to be cleared up on my end.

And, of course you can disprove repeatable observation.  It happens all the time.  Through the scientific method a hypothesis is tested and refined and becomes a theory - the best model we have for something that we observed.  At some future point, we refine our observation or make additional observations or perform some other test and determine that the theory, based on previous repeatable observation, was wrong.  This is what is meant by being open minded and applying the scientific approach - not simply saying "well, everything is reasonable and I should be open to it". 

In the case in point, our flat Earth friend is making repeatable observations, but he's ignoring other available data which shows not only that his observation (as described by him) is wrong, but ironically proves the counter of his position.

As for the nonsense in the Tesla video...wow.  Tesla claimed that the atom couldn't be subdivided and didn't believe in the existence of electrons (for example).  He spoke against any concept of conversation of matter to energy.  When he spoke against Einstein, it was before a practical test had been conducted (i.e. The Manhattan Project).  This is a classic case of repeatable observations (those made by Tesla which concluded the existence of "ether" that transmitted electricity, among other things.  This observation has long since been shown to be incorrect.  So, yeah, someone selectively quoting Tesla doesn't really make for an interesting video except, perhaps, for some psychology students.  This is not to say that Tesla didn't make great contributions or that he lacked intelligence.  For his time, he observed what he could and created a theory and from that achieved practical results.  It's just a great example of the scientific theory at work, refining observations and resultant theories.  And, again, that's a real open minded approach - not the sophist quackery preached by flat Earthers or that most recent video that you posted.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 04:22:59 pm »

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Phil Brown

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 06:22:23 pm »

I made an error and put the wrong time link. It was supposed to start a bit before 7Min into it, and I meant to include, to not watch all of it. But..I update the link time, so.

 Farmer. A hypothsis is the idea, taking the idea to test is an observation to draw out conclusions from. Luckily I only did 2 years of chemistry....Any more and I too might forget some basics with so much more info to learn ...something gets erased :-)

If you are going to simply apply what you learned in class, of course you're not going to be open to any different, new or contradicting information. This isn't meant to cause contradictions in thought. This is for those who can think out of the box. If you didn't know any rules or laws and watch the first video I posted, what you do see is that there is a straight line with no curve. Here are a couple other engineers explaining THEIR understanding, not the one that has been prescribed.

https://youtu.be/nR2q3ifFcN8



« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 08:16:22 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Telecaster

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2016, 10:58:37 pm »

I'll just note that figuring out the (not perfectly) spherical nature of our planet took both the capacity and the willingness to notice things most people didn't. Read up and watch video on Eratosthenes.

The history of human scientific & technological achievement is about a relative handful of people running ahead of the herd and pulling everyone else along with them. Without those people we'd all still be living in caves. Well, some of us would. Most of us would've never been born. Some of us clearly resent being pulled along at all.

-Dave-
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2016, 11:55:50 pm »

I like what you say Telecaster, regardless of how you might want to apply your perspective, what you say has often been the case.

...And it is why as mentioned that we might have come to a point that past theories we set forth as unproven fact, with so much theoretical modeling, and built on the model to a point that we need to revisit these old premises.

It would be crucial to bring up the basics and test those models BECAUSE our tools of measure have improved so greatly.
Our tools of communication are endless. Our ability to extract data, process it, and fact check it in  observation is so accessible with current transportation, ...
So what ever in the very far past that only a VERY few had access to(let alone error margins), and few could even author to quantify were dictating what laws we govern under.
Just as rulers and war winners wrote the history books, such rulers dictated what we theorize and build our knowledge atop.
And if there is debate or any contradiction, a invincible figure of authority will squash it with support of society rulers, ridicule, belittle and gain of laughter of the masses. People are not dumb, but put a large group together in front of a charismatic speaker, and you got yourself a herd.

In todays' time, while we have billions of people uncovering new ways of photography, new ways of creating music like never before, new levels of skill/professionalism.....
Sure with many that produce below the average, but with so many above and beyond our understand, that everyday those presistant have the aid of a shrunken learning curve, they get better and better.

There is NO WAY you can dispute it. The populous can and will overturn what was once only visible to a very few, as you see it happening in industry. 
You are kidding yourself if you think this turn of the century was only technological and revolutionary in photography...It is in many and spills into all areas.
Science is ALSO something that many people can pioneer in, as new evidence across the globe(or whatever), will discover and uncover what was hidden, or misrepresented. If you don't fact check, and you are under the mainstream of information only fed to you, you are a product of that info and things will not wait for you.

My signature has said for the past few years that; If you buy a camera, you are a photographer". This is your litmus test that you are behind as a personal being, while the industry, the craft of it has moved right past you...But if you don't try and see what is real, and fact check, you too will be left behind.

When you can raise a few eyebrows, and then some will say, lets retest, and then you see people in different parts of the world seeing the same thing, that they just dont see a calm level water rise and obstruct the view over a long enough distance based on our past taught calculations and models we formulated.......You fall under just a few categories....

1. The more you are well versed in the language, the more you are vested to fight any knew or unknown, or contradicting info. You will fight it with simple repitition of what you know. You will not accept it. Arrogance can easily cloud things.

2. You know that something has been wrong for some time now, but its not in your interest to make it public and make it a new norm. You will ridicule, and try and gain the support of just being the cool and fun guy that leads the herd. This person will try and discredit the individual, if they cannot discredit the info. Often will just refute the validity of the info.

3. You have open eys, and you accept things only as science and reality allow you to test them, and simply draw observations and facts based on testing, and using the scientific method. You are open to different forms of thinking. This is usually an independent, or classic educated with zero badges or diplomas enlarged on his wall behind the desk. Truely someone who loves the observation of science, and not the business of.

Now if you look at those that are putting ther reputation on the line. They are vulnerable claiming things that simply don't make sense in the accepted societal norm. They are either..

1. Crazy,
2. Or they have seen something that certainly sparked their interest enough to test it. And they found that it contradicts a rule they know. Then they share this to add a external perspective. And then check the work and the way it is applied. Now then you have some serious backing to what you claim. So you will have people with simple education to highly expert in the field under the classical theorems and understanding do one of the above 1, 2, or 3


So this guy has sparked my interest to see if this shore to shore test  is accurate.
I want to test this myself.
What can you suggest I do to satisfy those folks such as we have in this thread?
I would think I need a decent zoom lens.
2 points across a body of water. (on a calm day)
Someone to video tape the test. What else?
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Farmer

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2016, 01:08:58 am »

A hypothesis is an idea, but you need to have made an observation or had some prior knowledge to seed that idea.  You then present that idea and test it or obtain feedback.  Your flat Earther mate is presenting a hypothesis.  We know it can't be theory, because it doesn't stand up to scrutiny as an effective model to describe the observations.  If you want, I can call it bat-shit crazy nonsense, but in the interest of further discourse and in keeping an open mind, I've given it at least some credence and considered it a hypothesis.

I don't mind either way, in terms of naming.
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Phil Brown

Rob C

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2016, 04:41:30 am »

Terribly difficult, intellectually challenging thread to follow; and I find that with "Artists' Statements", too.  Best I leave 'em both alone.

Rob

jeremyrh

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2016, 05:59:20 am »

Terribly difficult, intellectually challenging thread to follow; and I find that with "Artists' Statements", too.  Best I leave 'em both alone.

Rob

Not a bad strategy when it comes to complex scientific subjects that take a lifetime of study to understand fully. As a lay person you have the choice of believing what the vast majority of qualified people conclude, or believing what some guy on the internet types. Of course option A is not a guarantee of success, but it seems a smarter choice to me.

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2016, 01:44:33 pm »

Not a bad strategy when it comes to complex scientific subjects that take a lifetime of study to understand fully. As a lay person you have the choice of believing what the vast majority of qualified people conclude, or believing what some guy on the internet types. Of course option A is not a guarantee of success, but it seems a smarter choice to me.

Thats just it! Of course you would! Its our instinctive nature to want to be with what is safe for survival and not stray from the pack. But today the layman has access. The most important freedom for a thinking breathing being. The tools we have has made it easier for the average person to advance him or herself in what they can understand on their own with scientific testing.
The "complex scientific subjects" of understand from centuries ago have been based on some theories that were NOT easy to measure, and we based some key BELEIFS on those...But now is very possible by the somewhat average person with some resources to simply test. 

This is NOT a complex test. This is simply showing that water acts as measuring tool for a level straight line. Over a distance we are TAUGHT that this line curves. Before it was pretty impossible with lens designs to actually see far enough without a very distorted image. Instead of talking about the past tools, and debating about that which is one thing, we HAVE THE TOOL to simply see now. The atmosphere and water have not changed in a couple hundered or more years. We can get the heck out there and test the theorem. Why debate it?! Why take my ARM yourself to disagree with something stated when you can test it yourself!  This is NOT a complex test, or equation, or anything other than SIMPLE GEOMETRY with a fantastic a2+b2=c2 , a proven mathematic formula that can be repeated constantly.

You may have processed film, written down each setting you changed for the condition you were shooting, mixed the right chemicals, used the right times and output in light....This industry alone...this small area only available to those that practiced it, is now in EVERY persons pocket as a tool. Used correctly you can achieve success in using it. These are small things, but they are also happening in many industries.

Great advancement that directly effect or improve people rarely occurred under rule. Any great thing achieved was from those that went against the given understanding or law, but they had enough momentum and tools and abilities with support to sustain, and emerge. This is what improvement is, to give ability to the masses to think for themselves, and not be bound with endless entertainment and work that occupies our ability to think outside this box and packaged understand.

So when the test of seeing a flat line you say is from some laymen on the internet, you have people doing it in the thousands. I found this one interesting, as it does a pretty good job. He has repeated the test in part 2 with more detail and addressed some things.

There will also ways be those that fall into the category I described above in previous post.  Who cares if some person thinks PAST what we are discussing, or how that info can mean so many other things. It wont make our short lives much different. But we need to take small steps to measure and account what we NOW can measure.  Very few people even had a telescope centuries ago, let alone have the understanding of how a lens distorts the horizon line.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 02:00:48 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Rob C

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2016, 02:01:38 pm »

Phil, I sometimes think that I would be perfectly happy were the status quo of twenty years ago to have continued for ever. Not a lot newer has made me feel one iota more happy, and probably noticeably less so.

Rob C

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2016, 02:54:51 pm »

OK, Phil.  You want to test this?  Lie flat on a beach and watch the sun set.  At the instant the last bit of the sun goes below the horizon, stand up.  You'll get to watch the sun set again.  That only works because the Earth is curved.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2016, 02:55:11 pm »

My strategy for dealing with flat-earthers or Bigfoot believers or whatever would be to cut through all the claims & associated rigmarole and go straight for the undeniable evidence. If the planet is flat, take me to the edge and show it to me. If Bigfoot exists, bring me live specimens to study. Short of that: get lost.

-Dave-
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2016, 03:35:07 pm »

OK, Phil.  You want to test this?  Lie flat on a beach and watch the sun set.  At the instant the last bit of the sun goes below the horizon, stand up.  You'll get to watch the sun set again.  That only works because the Earth is curved.

I apologize, but I cannot take your given perspectives thus far into account in this test. You are expecting me or others put energy and to test something at 2 points to be "level to level" with something we believe to be up high millions of miles away. Why even make such a proposterous suggestion? Please I would love to hear your ideas, as I think anyone is capable of valid input, but they have to be of constructive and apples to apples rational thinking. Perhaps you have some resistance to this, and you have ridicule in mind.

See my previous post about the 3 different reactions people get when they do something challenging to something you either whole heart-idly believe, or whole heart-idly have interest in not being , etc

This is the point you either join in a simple test, maybe best as observer.... or storm off with insults of lunacy (not that I want to involve anything lunar).
:-)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 03:49:17 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2016, 03:39:37 pm »

My strategy for dealing with flat-earthers or Bigfoot believers or whatever would be to cut through all the claims & associated rigmarole and go straight for the undeniable evidence. If the planet is flat, take me to the edge and show it to me. If Bigfoot exists, bring me live specimens to study. Short of that: get lost.

-Dave-


I think putting the theory of "flat earth" is a bad idea, specially in something we want theory to be excluded from. Keep in mind, most theory is based and extrapolated from observational fact, for the most part. This is a simple test that mathematics and simple(In todays time) observation can solve.

Air travel is very costly. Let alone trekking through deep snow into an area unknown to 99% of ~8billion people.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 03:49:47 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2016, 03:51:17 pm »

I wonder how flat-earthers account for time zones. (It shouldn't be necessary to state this, but I'm being facetious.)

People are odd in what they choose to "believe" or "not believe" or what to be mystified by. Decades ago my ex father-in-law expressed bafflement one day on how computers worked, that he could not understand them. For some reason this really bothered him because he felt that modern life was slipping away from him. So I said, ok, how do radios work then, you've been listening to them your entire life and it has never bothered you. And he had no idea how radios worked, they were just familiar. I could just as easily have said, how do they smelt iron ore? How many people know that.

In a previous life, I got a couple of physics degrees and remember getting into conversations with non-physicist friends about relativity (both special and general). I remember a couple of them expressing dis-belief in time dilation, that it could not be so because it made no sense.  As if it were a matter of opinion or belief. I find it odd that someone would dismiss something because they happen not to understand it.  My only answer to any of them, and the answer was unsatisfactory, was this: Have you ever seen a bacteria? Do you believe in them? If your appendix burst, would you be happy if the surgeon didn't wear surgical gloves? Why not? How does a person accept unquestioningly one aspect of modern science and not another? What prejudice is in effect to produce that paradox?

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can someone explain this visual or lens phenomina?
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2016, 04:11:40 pm »

I wonder how flat-earthers account for time zones. (It shouldn't be necessary to state this, but I'm being facetious.)

People are odd in what they choose to "believe" or "not believe" or what to be mystified by. Decades ago my ex father-in-law expressed bafflement one day on how computers worked, that he could not understand them. For some reason this really bothered him because he felt that modern life was slipping away from him. So I said, ok, how do radios work then, you've been listening to them your entire life and it has never bothered you. And he had no idea how radios worked, they were just familiar. I could just as easily have said, how do they smelt iron ore? How many people know that.

In a previous life, I got a couple of physics degrees and remember getting into conversations with non-physicist friends about relativity (both special and general). I remember a couple of them expressing dis-belief in time dilation, that it could not be so because it made no sense.  As if it were a matter of opinion or belief. I find it odd that someone would dismiss something because they happen not to understand it.  My only answer to any of them, and the answer was unsatisfactory, was this: Have you ever seen a bacteria? Do you believe in them? If your appendix burst, would you be happy if the surgeon didn't wear surgical gloves? Why not? How does a person accept unquestioningly one aspect of modern science and not another? What prejudice is in effect to produce that paradox?

I totally agree.
Its so much easier when you take your beliefs out of the equation when doing some simple scientific observation. the 101 of what be base our models on.

But its understandable for some to get up in arms, as they may have invested so much in it, or their direct livelihood may depend on it, etc

(oddly, I do have to say that time, although based on light vs dark/sun, is a construct we have implemented(long "time" ago), which we also LEARNED by new tools and OBSERVATION, know to be incorrect in the past 40 some odd years.... which is why astronomers don't use it for anything other than knowing when to take a lunch break, etc).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 04:25:00 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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