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Author Topic: too much sharpening and saturation  (Read 4301 times)

EinstStein

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too much sharpening and saturation
« on: October 20, 2016, 11:15:13 am »

I have a habit to turn down the contrast and boost the saturation by turn to the extreme on the exposure/highlight an turn to the extreme of exposure/shadow and turn saturation to 20~30 (in LR).

It seems I can't help to want that, but when I saw someone else's picture doing similar thing, it looks ugly to me. I believe I give other's similar feeling.

How to avoid that? any objective checking method to prevent over-do? 
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 02:46:04 pm »

Post a sample image of yours that you consider over cranked in sharpness and saturation.

This is a highly visually subjective based issue with many influences to sort out some of which may involve your eyesight (affected by warm room lighting surrounding a 6500K display), display calibration/profiling and type of scene edited that may or may not need more saturation and sharpening. Sunsets, vibrant flowers lit by direct sunlight are highly subjective and creative types of scenes.

I have to admit I have the same problem working on landscapes lit with mixed cool/warm/red/green color temperatures where studio shots in controlled lighting are not much of a problem.
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EinstStein

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2016, 11:49:43 am »

Many years ago I took a photo lesson from a community college, in the class the instructor told us to warm it up in color printing for more pleasing color. It did seem work at that time. However I also felt something wrong but didnot know why.  I have less of that problem now by using grey card and digital white balance.

I wonder if there is an equivalent method on the sharpening and saturation.



« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:58:13 am by EinstStein »
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Garnick

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2016, 12:32:33 pm »

A few observations, although it is sometimes difficult to be totally objective when viewing uploaded image files on the net.

Yes indeed, the colour images are over saturated, as well as exhibiting too much contrast.  One thing you might want to try.  I assume you are using adjustment layers, and if so change the blend mode on the Hue/Sat layer to Luminosity.  By doing that you are not adding contrast to the image, only saturation.  Then you can concentrate on the contrast by itself if necessary.

The B&W image shows a lot of artifacts related to over sharpening.  I'm seeing a white halo around the mountains and the sky is breaking up in some areas, as well as no detail at all in the large highlight area just above the mountain.  Also, in the shadow area there's a lot of noise, which is one of the effects of over sharpening an image that was underexposed initially. 

Last but definitely NOT least - make sure your display is properly calibrated and profiled.  A display that it to bright can really play havoc with image files, often culminating in prints that are too dark and shadows that are missing detail, as well as exhibiting noise.

Of course all I have written is based on opinion, but also on a background of many years of shooting and printing, my own files and those of my long time and very satisfied customers.

I hope this helps in some way.

Gary             
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Gary N.
"My memory isn't what it used to be. As a matter of fact it never was." (gan)

rdonson

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2016, 12:42:34 pm »

I agree with Gary's assessments.  The colors aren't reminiscent of planet earth and the over sharpening halos are very strong.

Many of us achieved similar results when we first went digital.  It's easy to go slider happy in processing and be amazed by how you can crank up the colors and sharpen the heck out of things.     

Experience and Gary's suggestions for calibration and profiling of your monitor should put you on the right track.  Just keep working on your images until you and a mentor think you're on the right track.  Its part of the learning experience.

I don't know what software you're using for processing but a histogram might help guide processing as well.  1:1 or 2:1 viewing helps with keeping the sharpening where it needs to be.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 04:25:09 pm by rdonson »
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Regards,
Ron

EinstStein

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2016, 03:30:55 pm »

All of you are extremely helpful. Thanks a lot.
On calibrating the display, I am still reluctant to investigate the  things like spiders. Is it really necessary? What is the cheapest acceptable alternative ?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 03:34:59 pm by EinstStein »
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rdonson

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2016, 04:36:07 pm »

I'm not a fan of the word "cheap".  For me that denotes low quality bordering on defective.  Perhaps you mean least expensive.

The first question you have to ask yourself is how much do you value your photography?  I assume your photography has some value to you or you wouldn't be investing time with questions in the forum.

I have no experience with Spiders so perhaps someone else can pipe in on them. 

I've used X-Rite (Gretag Macbeth) products for more than a decade.

X-Rite offers an entry level device for calibration/profiling monitors called the ColorMunki Smile.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/894645-REG/X_Rite_cmunsml_ColorMonki_Smile_Color_Calibration.html/?gclid=Cj0KEQjwnKzABRDy2pb7nPSazdsBEiQAI4lZQHUPq2P7a0u51LLGeP2WaNbp680pxVU6Z0hoqMj8Q78aAhb78P8HAQ&c3api=0980%2C110369296133

Perhaps a better choice is the higher quality ColorMunki Display

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/798928-REG/X_Rite_CMUNDIS_ColorMunki_Display.html/prm/alsVwDtl

Hope this helps.
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Regards,
Ron

ErikKaffehr

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2016, 04:51:49 pm »

Hi,

If you want to now what you are doing there are two options:

  • Buy a high end screen and use it with default settings and the corresponding profiles.
  • Buy a screen of at least reasonable quality and a calibrator

The major problem with computer screens is that they often are optimised for viewing documents and are to bluish (D65) and to contrasty. With a calibrated monitor there will be a close relation between what you see on the monitor and what another observer sees on another calibrated monitor. So, you can have a meaningful exchange.

But, calibration does not handle brightness and viewing environment.

Best regards
Erik




All of you are extremely helpful. Thanks a lot.
On calibrating the display, I am still reluctant to investigate the  things like spiders. Is it really necessary? What is the cheapest acceptable alternative ?
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Erik Kaffehr
 

EinstStein

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2016, 06:18:30 pm »

I am using Lightroom and capture-1.
The monitor is the 27" built-in i-MAC. 
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rdonson

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2016, 08:13:08 pm »

Those are two good applications for processing photos.

A 27" iMac is a very good machine especially the most recent ones.

If you want to get the monitor closer to acceptable go to
- Displays
- Color
- Calibrate

It's not an overwhelmingly accurate approach but if the monitor is out of whack it should get you closer to normal.

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Regards,
Ron

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2016, 08:17:19 pm »

That 27" iMac is fairly high quality display but it does need to be calibrated and profiled to measure exactly the color gamut which may be close to sRGB or AdobeRGB and if not known can either make color managed previews in LR/Photoshop look either over saturated or under saturated.

Apple's canned iMac display profile, which I'm assuming is loaded in your OS's Display Preferences, can't be trusted. And there certainly better not be AdobeRGB or AppleRGB profile loaded as your display profile.

I'ld get the Colormunki Display which is what I use on my sRGB-ish LG 27" display I bought at Best Buy and get decent screen to print matches from my edited Raw files which is a format I suggest you start shooting in instead of the out of the camera jpegs if you see you need to bump up saturation/sharpness.

BTW you wouldn't happen to have the unedited jpegs of the color shots and if so could you post them here? Your problem may be fixed by adjusting settings on that Sony ILCE-7RM2 if you're going to shoot jpegs. Modern cameras have very robust WB, color, contrast and sharpening adjustments for less post processing. The purple rocks, blue shadows, electric green moss shot looks like a white balance issue. And WB and saturation go hand in hand. Get WB wrong and it's right to the saturation slider to beef up what too blue white balance can do at desaturating color.
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TonyW

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2016, 01:28:19 pm »

All of you are extremely helpful. Thanks a lot.
On calibrating the display, I am still reluctant to investigate the  things like spiders. Is it really necessary? What is the cheapest acceptable alternative ?
Pretty much agree with what others have said. 

If you want to see what your images really look like and hopefully what others will see on their displays (only if they have profiled monitors of course!) and you want to edit images to send for printing then I am firmly of the belief that you should be calibrating and profiling your monitor.  So you may find that money spent on a calibration device is well worth the investment.

X-Rite products seem to be the best choice Color Munki Display or the more expensive i1 Display Pro would be my choice with the latter preferred.

As to sharpening it does look like you are being a little aggressive (the JPEG conversion and downsample may have contributed) and introducing all sorts of artefacts around edges and also within the body of the image (ringing).  Hope it ok to use your image but as an example concentrating on the mountain edges and comparing original with a masked version - wait a couple of seconds for image to change



The over saturation issue is harder to comment on due to this being an aesthetic decision.  But once again if you have not calibrated and profiled your monitor you will not really know what your images look like so how will you know when to stop? 
One thing I learned many years ago in printing is that it can be quite hard to step back from an image where your first view is one of high contrast or saturation - your brain just does not seem to want to let go of this first image and anything less can look poor. 

One way that you may find helpful is to completely desaturate the image first (if it looks good as B&W it is likely to look good in colour) then gradually increase the saturation until it looks good to you.  As an example have used your image at the top a desaturated view in the middle and turned up colour until it looked good to me i.e. a believable rendition of a scene I have not seen.  This may be totally wrong of course and far from your intention but maybe it will be of some help - bearing in mind if your monitor is off in colour this may look terrible  ;D



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nirpat89

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 02:12:57 pm »

One of the ways you can tell if your image has been "over-saturated" is to look at the individual channels of R G and B.  If a certain area is over-saturated, one or more of those channels should bunch up on the left side (shadows.)  Visually the areas start to look blotchy like the purple ones in the bottom-most image.  In that image, your R is clearly outside the range with G being nicely in whereas the Blue channel can use a little help.  Putting H/S at -15 or so, I was able to bring all three channels within the 0-255 (except the blown-out water flow on the left.)  If you look only at the composite RGB channel, it may not show where each individual channels are being thrown off the scale.

Well, that's how I do it anyway....
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 09:53:10 pm by nirpat89 »
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EinstStein

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2016, 01:51:54 am »

Thanks you for so much.
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Peter_DL

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Re: too much sharpening and saturation
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2016, 03:08:49 pm »

One thing I learned many years ago in printing is that it can be quite hard to step back from an image where your first view is one of high contrast or saturation - your brain just does not seem to want to let go of this first image and anything less can look poor. 

One way that you may find helpful is to completely desaturate the image first (if it looks good as B&W it is likely to look good in colour) then gradually increase the saturation until it looks good to you.

That's a very valid point.

Color saturation tends to 'saturate' the eye, so that an oversaturation is not recognized anymore after some adaptation.

Changing to a black/white rendition resets the perception. It is a known effect that an afterimage of complementary colors is seen for some time until the cone cells are 'discharged' again (illustrated here).

Peter
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