Hasselblad h6d-100c?

[Michael Erlewine]

Hi Alex,

I have not bought a H6D-100c yet, still considering whether it is worth the cash. If I decide to proceed, the the 120II is probably going to be part of the package, although I am a bit concerned by its huge side.
 
Cheers,
Bernard

I have a 120II here and ready to work when the X1D (and adapter for the 120II) finally arrive.

[landscapephoto]

I have spent time with the samples I shot with the H6d-100c and various lenses.

There are many things to like, but on the negative side I was surprised to see the amount of purple fringing along high contrast edges. The 50mm II seemed particularly affected by this. It is easy to fix with LR but seems very challenging with Phocus 3.1.

What is everybody's experience?

Cheers,
Bernard

I find that surprising. On an H4D-50, I can't see any purple fringing with the 50mm II. Sure, the new H6D-100c has smaller pixels and will show more fringing than the H4D-50, but if there is a lot to be seen on the H6D-100c, surely purple fringing should show at least a little bit on the H4D-50?

Maybe that particular copy of the 50mm II was faulty? Or maybe there was a problem with the AF of your particular H6D-100c sample?

[BernardLanguillier]

I would also love to understand what happened.

I will try to test that once more. As of now I consider, if representative of what the performance should be, a show stopper. I really hope that this sample of the lens had issues.

Btw, how would an AF issue result in purple fringing?

Cheers,
Bernard

[landscapephoto]

Btw, how would an AF issue result in purple fringing?

If there is a slight defocus, there is often more fringing.

[eronald]

I would also love to understand what happened.

I will try to test that once more. As of now I consider, if representative of what the performance should be, a show stopper. I really hope that this sample of the lens had issues.

Btw, how would an AF issue result in purple fringing?

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, why don't you ask some questions of Hasselblad, they are presumably the experts on the camera and the lenses - and the software.
Lateral chromatic aberration is - I believe - sometimes dealt with by software, once the lens has been characterized.

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

I have spent time with the samples I shot with the H6d-100c and various lenses.

There are many things to like, but on the negative side I was surprised to see the amount of purple fringing along high contrast edges. The 50mm II seemed particularly affected by this. It is easy to fix with LR but seems very challenging with Phocus 3.1.

What is everybody's experience?

Cheers,
Bernard

In my experience, and this goes back many generations, Phocus can correct for chromatic aberration effectively, however with purple fringing, which is more associated with blooming and other high contrast scenarios, I have found the tools are not as effective, in fact I'm not aware of a dedicated tool to address it in Phocus.

I do not see it as a limitation of the 100mp sensor, as I have seen this back to the 39mp days. And the fact that LR cleaned it up would seem to back up that it's not a sensor limitation, but a software limitation.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard, why don't you ask some questions of Hasselblad, they are presumably the experts on the camera and the lenses - and the software.
Lateral chromatic aberration is - I believe - sometimes dealt with by software, once the lens has been characterized.

I did and have not received a clear answer about the origin of the issue, just a confirmation that, although CA is corrected by Phocus, purple fringing isn't.

I believe that C1 Pro does correct this more of less automatically, which is probably why I haven't seen it in years in my images.

What I intend to do is a comparison of the H6D-100c + a few lenses vs my D810 + Otus glass in similar conditions and assess whether this is a real problem or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This sample from Doug Peterson's IQ3-100MP test shows a very typical case of axial chromatic aberration. Almost all large aperture lenses have it except the Otuses, the Sonnar 135/2 APO, some of the APO Lantars.

You are paying a lot to have it corrected in the Otus.

Best regards
Erik

I did and have not received a clear answer about the origin of the issue, just a confirmation that, although CA is corrected by Phocus, purple fringing isn't.

I believe that C1 Pro does correct this more of less automatically, which is probably why I haven't seen it in years in my images.

What I intend to do is a comparison of the H6D-100c + a few lenses vs my D810 + Otus glass in similar conditions and assess whether this is a real problem or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi,

This sample from Doug Peterson's IQ3-100MP test shows a very typical case of axial chromatic aberration. Almost all large aperture lenses have it except the Otuses, the Sonnar 135/2 APO, some of the APO Lantars.

You are paying a lot to have it corrected in the Otus.

Still significantly less than what you pay for most MF lenses especially if you factor in the entry point of the body you need to mount these lenses on... which is precicely the point and makes me wonder if I don't already own the very best.

Cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Bernard,

Not my point.

My point is to find out if it is axial chroma you have observed, or something else. The effect shown here arises with defocus, a few lenses are very well corrected for axial chroma but most are not.

With the Otus, Zeiss made a great effort to reduce axial chroma to virtually zero all the way to f/1.4. With the Milvus lenses Zeiss has redesigned the 50/1.4 and the 85/1.4, in both cases a bit Otus like designs, indeed the Milvus MTF plots are on par with the Otus, but I would guess that the Milvuses don't fully correct axial chroma.

I have seen a couple of interviews with Zeiss people almost spelling that out.

The Otus design should be able to keep up with 24x36 sensors up to perhaps 150 MP. So if you need Otus quality at 100 MP you can just wait for some to deliver a 100 MP 24x36 sensor.

Best regards
Erik

Still significantly less than what you pay for most MF lenses especially if you factor in the entry point of the body you need to mount these lenses on... which is precicely the point and makes me wonder if I don't already own the very best.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

My point is to find out if it is axial chroma you have observed, or something else.

It is purple fringing, no lateral or axial chromatic aberration.

cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Digllyod has found that kind of fringing on Leica S-lenses and found that it was caused by insufficient IR-filtering, if I recall it correctly. I no longer subscribe to his site, but he had quite strong evidence. He made tests with differen UV and IR filters and found that filters could eliminate that fringing fully by the appropriate filter. I am pretty sure that was IR-filtration, but could also been UV. Long time ago I read.

Best regards
Erik

It is purple fringing, no lateral or axial chromatic aberration.

cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Digllyod has found that kind of fringing on Leica S-lenses and found that it was caused by insufficient IR-filtering, if I recall it correctly. I no longer subscribe to his site, but he had quite strong evidence. He made tests with differen UV and IR filters and found that filters could eliminate that fringing fully by the appropriate filter. I am pretty sure that was IR-filtration, but could also been UV. Long time ago I read.

That's interesting, so it could be related to the sensor then.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

That's interesting, so it could be related to the sensor then.

Cheers,
Bernard

I believe the purple fringing is caused by a complex lens/sensor interaction, and therefore a bit unpredictable depending on which combination you are using. I hadn't heard the IR/UV story before, but there certainly is the issue of the sensel "light-trap walls" and microlenses and **light angle from the exit pupil** etc. And on the aperture at time of capture ... maybe you could redo your tests with another aperture.

BTW, Leica S lenses have built-in UV filtration AFAIK. I know that because when they were at prototype stage I had a chat with them and they said they'd seen the issue, and asked about software solutions and I said it wouldn't work, and they said they concluded the same thing and decided to build filters into the lenses (for all I know that might mean just using a certain glass type?) .

Maybe spending more time on what is in front of the lens and less on the camera is worthwhile. I find these days I do a lot of my imaging with a box of color pencils and a notepad.

Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

This sample from Doug Peterson's IQ3-100MP test shows a very typical case of axial chromatic aberration. Almost all large aperture lenses have it except the Otuses, the Sonnar 135/2 APO, some of the APO Lantars.

Notably:
- This is the 80LS. A very solid kit lens, but not as free of chromatic aberration as the 35LS, 45LS, 110LS, 120LS, 150LS, or 240LS
- It's shot wide open
- It's shot at a close distance
- This is a crop of a subject with thin high contrast lines

These are all the worst case scenario for CA. I've attached a screen grab from the same raw file elsewhere in the frame to show what you would expect on a more normal subject matter.

More to the point Chromatic Aberration (CA) is not the same as Purple Fringing (PF). CA is all about the lens. PF is a product of sensor, filter, and signal processing with the lens playing a limited role in some cases. You might assume this would be the same across cameras that use the same or very similar sensors, but that is a bad assumption.

[eronald]

Notably:
- This is the 80LS. A very solid kit lens, but not as free of chromatic aberration as the 35LS, 45LS, 110LS, 120LS, 150LS, or 240LS
- It's shot wide open
- It's shot at a close distance
- This is a crop of a subject with thin high contrast lines

These are all the worst case scenario for CA. I've attached a screen grab from the same raw file elsewhere in the frame to show what you would expect on a more normal subject matter.

More to the point Chromatic Aberration (CA) is not the same as Purple Fringing (PF). CA is all about the lens. PF is a product of sensor, filter, and signal processing with the lens playing a limited role in some cases. You might assume this would be the same across cameras that use the same or very similar sensors, but that is a bad assumption.

Maybe, you could be more specific in imparting your wisdom - eager ears await your words

Edmund

[J_M]

Hi all,

I just wanted to give you an update to my 100c test from last week.

Of the three cameras sent to Germany, one made its way to me! Apparently a lot of bodies are being shipped to Asia and only a small amount are available here in Europe.

When I went to pick the body up at the dealer he couldn’t turn the camera on. After a little testing and calls to the regional Hassi guy, we still couldn’t get it working…..I left.

Many hours later, I got a call and they got it figured out. Apparently the firmware for the 50c was installed on the 100c on accident?!? (Not exactly the best first impression, but ok, stuff like that can happen.)

I went back to the dealer the next day to give it another go. After picking up the camera we started testing it.

More bad news. After three to five exposures the body would lock up and require a battery removal & restart. We tried with 3 brand new cards (fresh out of the package 2x SD cards/64GB 95MB/s, and 1 CFast). The same problem kept coming up – the camera kept crashing. We tried different variations of settings, jpeg & raw, raw only; other random stuff that might make things unstable. Nothing worked. I took the camera back a little while later.

I was planning on taking advantage of the trade-in program and was so glad that I hadn’t given them my older model right away. Make sure you test your new camera thoroughly before giving them your old one.  The camera I received was extremely unstable.

J_M


*The few images I was able to make were impressive though.

[BernardLanguillier]

Maybe, you could be more specific in imparting your wisdom - eager ears await your words

Doug is probably comparing Panasonic and Olympus?

Cheers,
Bernard

[degrub]

I believe the purple fringing is caused by a complex lens/sensor interaction, and therefore a bit unpredictable depending on which combination you are using. I hadn't heard the IR/UV story before, but there certainly is the issue of the sensel "light-trap walls" and microlenses and **light angle from the exit pupil** etc. And on the aperture at time of capture ... maybe you could redo your tests with another aperture.

BTW, Leica S lenses have built-in UV filtration AFAIK. I know that because when they were at prototype stage I had a chat with them and they said they'd seen the issue, and asked about software solutions and I said it wouldn't work, and they said they concluded the same thing and decided to build filters into the lenses (for all I know that might mean just using a certain glass type?) .

Maybe spending more time on what is in front of the lens and less on the camera is worthwhile. I find these days I do a lot of my imaging with a box of color pencils and a notepad.

Edmund

Search for Panasonic 7-14 mm purple blob on Olympus EM5 cameras for another example. If i remember correctly, a Wratten 2A filter limited the issue. Someone developed a  filter mounting  on the rear of the lens.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Doug,

I have taken your sample shot because it is a well made example and shows very clearly the effects of axial chromatic aberration, which normally occurs as magenta/green fringing in out of focus areas. I wanted to show a sample with a recent generation MFD lens. My older Hasselblad V lenses are pretty rich in axial chroma, but they are old designs made for film.

Purple fringing is a different thing. A few years ago Lloyd Chambers has found very significant fringing on some Leica S lenses. He could show that an IR-cut off filter in front of the lens could eliminate that fringing fully. The lens was obviously not well corrected for short wave infrared and the IR filter was insufficient to keep short wave IR off the sensor.

We obviously deal with different phenomena.

• Lateral CA that mostly gives red/green fringes, proportional to distance from optical axis - not affected by stopping down
• Axial CA, most visible in OoF areas, magenta green fringing
• Purple fringing - that may have different causes

Bernard has not supplied samples, so we can only guess.

Stopping down a lens masks axial chroma. So it rarely shows at say f/8, it is a large aperture for bokeh kind of problem.

Best regards
Erik

Notably:
- This is the 80LS. A very solid kit lens, but not as free of chromatic aberration as the 35LS, 45LS, 110LS, 120LS, 150LS, or 240LS
- It's shot wide open
- It's shot at a close distance
- This is a crop of a subject with thin high contrast lines

These are all the worst case scenario for CA. I've attached a screen grab from the same raw file elsewhere in the frame to show what you would expect on a more normal subject matter.

More to the point Chromatic Aberration (CA) is not the same as Purple Fringing (PF). CA is all about the lens. PF is a product of sensor, filter, and signal processing with the lens playing a limited role in some cases. You might assume this would be the same across cameras that use the same or very similar sensors, but that is a bad assumption.