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Author Topic: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!  (Read 9080 times)

unesco

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2017, 04:10:31 AM »

As the creator of the ink I can't say I'm independent. Initial demand was so strong that we sold completely out in a week. More raw materials are arriving at our facility in early January for more production. We will then have enough made to fulfill more orders.

On bare scientific levels, we are getting to a dMax of 1.82 with the new matte black ink on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag (specifically on the x900 series printers. Some dmax varies from printhead model by a few percentage points.)

Best,
Walker

Hi Walker,

It is great to be able to chat with the ink creator!
So, good, it looks like you've cought up with HP Vivera density on matt and are a bit beyond Epson HD what was great improvement for my 3880-->P800 switch.

Number of questions comes to my mind:
1) What level of neutrality (and its homegenity through shades scale) are you able to achieve with Pro setup compared to K7?

2) As for discussion about 7>4>3, I still wonder, as written in my initial post in this thread, what is split of quality reason between the new ink and QTR software? I print a lot with QTR and Epson K3 and it gives outstanding quality compared to ABW. I just wonder if it is going to be better (and in which circumstances) when switching my 3880 to Piezography (K7 or Pro).
So, what makes the show - ink or QTR?

3) Are you going to have preset curves simulating your K7 look, especially carbon and selenium?

4) Where is a difference between 8 and 10 channels setup? What gets improved - light tones?

Best Wishes (B&W) in the New Year
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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2017, 11:07:13 AM »

The piezography website recommends sourcing an used Epson 4900 7900 or 9900, flushing it and converting it to piezography. Do these printers suffer from the same clogging issues with piezo inks as they do with original Epson inks? I would like to try piezography but it's not available for my P800 (and maybe never will be) and I'm not a frequent printer (I've had zero clogging issues with P800 so far).

Separately, Epson sells continuous ink tank systems in Asia and here in cheaper parts of Europe (the L800/L1800 models) which use 6 dye based inks and seem to side step the whole issue of chipped ink cartridges - is that something that could be converted to piezography?


Sorry for the late reply. Piezo ink does not clog print heads anywhere near epson ink. This is well known among current piezo users so don't take if from me.

At cone editions we recently got back to our pro 9900 printer after a month dry (humidifier off, we all make mistakes). Not a single nozzle was missing on boot. The "wet" time for this new ink is an improvement as well.

Best,
Walker


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donbga

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2017, 11:07:43 AM »


Sorry for the late reply. Piezo ink does not clog print heads anywhere near epson ink. This is well known among current piezo users so don't take if from me.

At cone editions we recently got back to our pro 9900 printer after a month dry (humidifier off, we all make mistakes). Not a single nozzle was missing on boot. The "wet" time for this new ink is an improvement as well.

Best,
Walker


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So what is the official release date for the new Piezography-Pro inks? Can these inks be used successfully with PiezoDN?

Thanks,

Don Bryant
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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2017, 12:04:22 PM »

So what is the official release date for the new Piezography-Pro inks? Can these inks be used successfully with PiezoDN?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

Second release for pro is soon. I'm in the clean room next week making it but it takes some time after for bottling and fulfillment.

Initial Beta PiezoDN pro curves are completed but they will need some tweaking before they can be finalized.

-walker


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richardboutwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2017, 09:00:48 AM »

I did some tests of the new MK over the weekend and wrote a blog post about it yesterday. I made tests with two different measurement devices on Hahnemühle Museum Etching and (i1Pro and SpyderPrint) and get consistent densities between 1.78-1.81 depending on how it is measured (i1 Pro in the tray will give slightly lower densities than directly on the paper, but directly on the paper will scuff it and give lower densities after repeated measurements). I will fire up the SpectroScan when I get back in town next week and see if I can get cleaner readings from that. 

Here is a link to the full blog post: http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/testing-the-new-piezography-matte-black
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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2017, 10:23:52 AM »

Just a quick update. After a few months of t


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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2017, 10:27:19 AM »

Hey everyone. After a few months of testing PiezoDN curves with pro ink and qtr, I am still not happy with it. In doing this work, I realized that the dot sizing, dithers, and micro weave in QTR are all about a decade out of date compare to where the newest epson printer/driver technology is.

So I'm going back to ground zero and building PiezoDN and Piezography drivers. These will work on MacOSX and Linux (Linux is free and can run as a virtual machine on any windows computer).

More soon,
Walker


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donbga

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2017, 12:59:53 PM »

Hey everyone. After a few months of testing PiezoDN curves with pro ink and qtr, I am still not happy with it. In doing this work, I realized that the dot sizing, dithers, and micro weave in QTR are all about a decade out of date compare to where the newest epson printer/driver technology is.

So I'm going back to ground zero and building PiezoDN and Piezography drivers. These will work on MacOSX and Linux (Linux is free and can run as a virtual machine on any windows computer).

More soon,
Walker


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This is a bit disappointing to hear since I just purchased the PP starter kit last week for my Epson 3800 using Windows 7 64.

I really don't get the attachment to Apple but I suspect it's because of the underlying UNIX OS allowing you guys to develop your products faster with the myriad of FREE development tools.

I was going to install the inks this week but I might just return them. My plan was to completely adopt Cone Color for my 3880 and PP for my 3800 both of which are in excellent condition.

The PP inks beckoned to me for the potential flexibility making B&W inkjet prints and inkjet negatives.

Life is never simple but Piezo Pro developers are really screwing with my acceptance of this product.

Don Bryant
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richardboutwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2017, 01:18:26 PM »

From what I understood from Walker's post in a separate Facebook group, the new driver/dithering algorithms are first going to be used for the higher resolution print heads in the P600 and 1430/1500. I think the step up to a dual quad system is going to be better regardless of the increased resolution of whatever the new driver is going to do.

I think the best thing you can do from there is to get an old Mac Mini or Apple laptop as a QTR print server. It will allow you to print 16-bit images and multiple image layouts.

Piezography wouldn't even be an option if it weren't for QTR, and now PiezoDN/PiezoPro relies on the Linearize-Quad app, so my first question about this new driver is if it will be compatible with .quad style curves or it is going to use some kind of new proprietary/standalone printing system.
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donbga

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2017, 01:36:02 PM »

From what I understood from Walker's post in a separate Facebook group, the new driver/dithering algorithms are first going to be used for the higher resolution print heads in the P600 and 1430/1500. I think the step up to a dual quad system is going to be better regardless of the increased resolution of whatever the new driver is going to do.

I think the best thing you can do from there is to get an old Mac Mini or Apple laptop as a QTR print server. It will allow you to print 16-bit images and multiple image layouts.

Piezography wouldn't even be an option if it weren't for QTR, and now PiezoDN/PiezoPro relies on the Linearize-Quad app, so my first question about this new driver is if it will be compatible with .quad style curves or it is going to use some kind of new proprietary/standalone printing system.

FWIW, I was a UNIX SYS ADMIN running SCO, Solaris, Linux, and HP for quite a few years.

I loved Sun equipment and HP servers. But I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt I fucking despise Apple. I have a G3 which I use to operate a Scitex smart 340. My point here is that Apple obsolescence seems to occur about every 6 months. Fuck Apple and the horse they rode in on!

Anyway now that I have vented about the idea of getting an old Mac Mini or Apple laptop to be used as a print server; that propect does not make me happy AT all. I'm going to have to chew the cud on this.

Thanks Richard,

Don Bryant

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richardboutwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2017, 02:01:41 PM »

I really don't understand the irrational Apple animosity some people have. Yeah, so they removed some ports... but your G3 is still running ins't it? I have a few beige G3s running some specific things that any other "modern" computer won't do—regardless of platform. The point is, you pick a tool for the task you need to do. If a tool, in this case, Windows, is not able to do the job, then pick another tool. 
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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2017, 03:22:07 PM »

Don. This is only for digital negatives. PiezoPRO is working totally perfectly for printing on paper with windows QTR although that driver may not be supported for much longer on post win10 systems FYI (Roy did not program it.)

I'm sure you will be very happy with your pro ink with QTR GUI and the hundreds of curves we made for it.

Dig negs are a totally different ball game though. They require much more complex inking and dots and the tech is no longer there inside of QTR for this newest ink especially with small format surecolors like the p400.

W


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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2017, 03:25:34 PM »

FWIW, I was a UNIX SYS ADMIN running SCO, Solaris, Linux, and HP for quite a few years.

I loved Sun equipment and HP servers. But I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt I fucking despise Apple. I have a G3 which I use to operate a Scitex smart 340. My point here is that Apple obsolescence seems to occur about every 6 months. Fuck Apple and the horse they rode in on!

Anyway now that I have vented about the idea of getting an old Mac Mini or Apple laptop to be used as a print server; that propect does not make me happy AT all. I'm going to have to chew the cud on this.

Thanks Richard,

Don Bryant


Dear Don, part of why I'm building the driver to support any flavor of nix system here. supporting Linux or variant thereof is long-term-viable and we can distro a virtual appliance easily for anyone on windows. This way they can update their windows machines forever without worrying about breaking their print workflow.


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donbga

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2017, 04:07:16 PM »


Dear Don, part of why I'm building the driver to support any flavor of nix system here. supporting Linux or variant thereof is long-term-viable and we can distro a virtual appliance easily for anyone on windows. This way they can update their windows machines forever without worrying about breaking their print workflow.


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Walter I appreciate your efforts and you two Richard.

I won't bloviate anymore about Apple other than to mention I watched Jobs at an exclusive presentation years ago demo'ing the Next Cube. Billed as the last computer we would need; of course that was when he was competing with Apple. Next came the pizza box Next.

Before that, introduction of the Lisa broke new ground. You know the history. I'm just tired of purchasing computers. The late Judy Siegel used to rue the continuous upgrading paths. I'll talk to IJM tomorrow to get a Piezo-Flush kit for the migration of color to PP B&W. Perhaps being able to use cheap used Macs is much better than buying expensive new Macs. I have several extremely fast and powerful i7 based PCs on my LAN. If Apple would allow PC owners to run their OS's then I probably wouldn't be so sour.

Thanks for your dedication and hard work. The world needs young guys like you and Richard to forge the new ways for printing nirvana. I can understand only wanting to develop and support an open source system. But I can tell you from experience that there are pitfalls to watch out for so it's not as perfect a solution as it might seem. At least you are now blessed with fast PCs for running Linux. Now if you come up with something that allows me to use a dual boot a lower end PC when I need to print I may be more tempted than using an Apple. Least we forget the symbolism of the bite of knowledge from the apple grown in the garden of good and evil. Apple sycophants have been paying the price ever since.

Don Bryant

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wblackwell

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Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2017, 04:12:05 PM »

No need to dualboot. Just use virtual machine (Linux is incredibly light system resource user.)

Also, it's easier than one might think to install OS X on PC hardware. The non prof I started in Chicago (latitudechicago.org) has been doing it for half a decade. You can build machines that way at a fraction of the cost of Apple hardware that are frankly even more stable. OS X is a great system on any hardware. Just have to edit a few kexts. It breaks EULA but it's worth it in my opinion.

-walker


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donbga

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2017, 04:16:58 PM »

on post win10 systems FYI (Roy did not program it.)


I remember when QTRGui was introduced and I believe the author's name was Tom Moore. And there were one or two other developers working on the Apple side. Too bad the source code for QTRGui is gone. It would be nice to be able to run it from a command line, Never the less I've been able to make some very nice split toned prints with QTRGui running an Epson 2200.

I used Cone inks back when I had the driver for the Epson 1160. So I'm a long time customer of IJM. I've met Jon at SPE nationals. I led a local user group when we all lusted over an Epson 3000 and Piezo prints looked kind of funky.

I'll adjust ...

Don Bryant
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datro

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2017, 05:04:02 PM »

Following this with some interest.

@Walker:
  • RE dither:  Yes, I agree there is room for improvement in dither, microweave and dot size.  I'm still working on tuning the K5 Cool + K4 Warm PiezoPro setup on my 7900, but I've noticed in very fine gradients that ABW still seems to hold a slight edge in smoothness.
  • ("I'm sure you will be very happy with your pro ink with QTR GUI and the hundreds of curves we made for it.") - I'm still waiting on the x900 K4 curves for the supported papers promised as included in the PiezoPro system.
  • RE new drivers on MacOS and Linux:  While I'm a Windows 10 user, I'm OK with Linux for the future system.  But PLEASE try to develop a product that can be released concurrently on both platforms with equal functionality.  What frustrates me the most is having one platform being treated as a poor stepchild compared to the other.
  • Like Richard, I'm wondering whether you will attempt to leverage existing QTR curve architecture/structure or move to something completely different.  Also, what is your timetable for the new driver and will there be a cost associated with it?

@Richard
("If a tool, in this case, Windows, is not able to do the job, then pick another tool."):  Can't argue with your intent; picking the right tool is definitely what you want to do.  But the better way to state this is that "the tool you want was built by the developers to work only on XYZ platform, therefore that's what you have to use."  Not that it can't be built on a different platform.  These days it is very feasible to build fully functional large software systems that work equally well on Windows, Mac, and Linux.  It all boils down to what the developer is willing to do, their software knowledge, and the resources available.  In this case, a choice has been made for MacOS and Linux.

Dave
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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2017, 08:31:25 AM »

Do you have piezo professional tools and a spectro? That is almost required if you want smooth tones out of the k4/k5 combos. Your system is an adaptation for a printer with a dying head (missing channel). There will always be complications there related to linearity compared to where abw was when the head was good. Generally we offer a custom lin for pro users who need a k4/k5 setup but I don't remember doing this for you. Regardless, I recommend the PPE tools. The standard Lin/tune workflow for qtr doesn't quite get there.


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datro

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2017, 09:09:36 AM »

Thanks Walker.  Yes, I do have the PPE tools and have done the full linearization exercise with the K5/K4 combination with my i1Pro2.  (You may reference my thread on the private PPE forum on this a while back.)  I am still trying to tune things a bit and my next step is to double check the paper feed settings for my custom paper types to see if that has any effect.

Anyway, I'm on the road today and will follow up on this on the private forum when I get back (probably should have posted this on the private forum anyway...sorry about that).

Dave
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wblackwell

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Re: Jon Cone Piezography-Pro inks!
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2017, 09:33:17 PM »

No problemo. If you read the 256 step target and send me the data and quad I can send a custom Lin. It would allow me to tweak the algorithm for your particular spectro. Every person's is different so that is partly why it's hosted live online (we can support each person individually).


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