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Author Topic: going pro - some advice please?  (Read 9753 times)

Endeavour

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going pro - some advice please?
« on: October 12, 2016, 10:45:37 am »

I've been flirting with becoming a professional* photographer for a few years now. And I feel like I'm getting to a transitional stage in my life (and skills) where its a real possibility I can try and make the jump

*for the purposes of this discussion, I am defining 'professional' as someone who earns the majority of their income from photography

I have a strong idea on what genre I am interested in pursuing, with other types of photography kept more as a hobby; such as large format landscapes which I love, wildlife and motorsport.
It may be possible to make a living from wildlife, but with a newborn baby, extensive travel is not on the cards. And there is not much money in motorsport these days -I've done quite a lot of trackside shooting over the years and had work published, but it's not financially supportive


My main career has been high-end visual effects in movies. I have a deep understanding of digital images enhancement and manipulation. Including matching computer generated elements with 'live action' plates
This is an area I believe I can bring a ton of fresh ideas and technical expertise.

So I have a couple of questions which I hope someone might be able to answer or else just offer some advice:

If I wanted to try and get into commercial/fashion/advertising photography, is this something a middle aged man can realistically break into? I am mindful of my age (42) and although I have financial security, am highly professional and still have a strong passion, I am conscious of being overlooked for younger, more energetic, shooters.
Also at 42 my desire to be an assistant is pretty low. I couldn't be a running/intern in the film industry now, and I fear this translates to my starting 'at the bottom' in photography

I am considering taking on some education, with workshops or evening classes. I admit to being a little apprehensive of the credentials of someone running a workshop, or wasting my time listening to talks on which memory cards to use or what white balance is.

I know I can technically take great images, I have a lot of ideas for concepts and campaigns, but I am just unclear on what direction I should take to actual get moving forward in this industry. I am also aware that some of my comments may come across as arrogant or 'moon on a stick' type attitude by not wanting to start at the bottom - but I do have some little mouths to feed everyday

any thoughts/comments or advice would be gratefully received to help point me in the right direction

thanks
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Rob C

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 11:30:03 am »

FWIW: unless you already have a burning desire to do something specific in photography, save yourself grief and stay with what you are doing. In my opinon, becoming a pro photographer means, as definition, you can't (won't) even imagine doing anything else.

Ageism hits everybody; how are young models going to react to you unless you can still throw it around like a yoof? Pictures work or do not work because of rapport (technique taken as granted). In my experience, it came down to desirability in the following way: if you are in your twenties, a late-teens model may see you as a catch; if you are a lot older but a star, they see you as an even bigger catch for their book and reputation. By fourty-five, I had had a couple call me Dad, laughingly, but the idea was still there. Imagine when they see you as grandpa. Even Avedon walked away from fashion in the end, as did Sarah Moon and also Helmut Newton. Sure, they still did some under exceptional circumstances as they aged, but their "own thing" took over their life. Frank Horvat tried to get back: had a big exhibition to which everyone came, drank the champagne and told him how cool he was, but they never rang afterwards.

If you are already financially secure, as you put it, just save time and do it for fun.

Depressing? Maybe, but probably realistic enough too. Life really is short; avoid unpleasant experiences where you can.

Having just written which, you might just as easily be working for Vogue next month.

pearlstreet

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 01:01:35 pm »

Rob, aren't their women fashion photographers? It would make me kind of queasy if it were all about a man flirting with a young woman/teenager. I'm not a fashion photographer so I don't know.

To the op, if you are financially secure and truly have a passion for it - do it, give it your all. Why not?  Just don't give your work away free while you are doing it.

Get your instagram rocking.
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Rob C

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 03:02:59 pm »

1.  Rob, aren't their women fashion photographers? It would make me kind of queasy if it were all about a man flirting with a young woman/teenager. I'm not a fashion photographer so I don't know.

2.  To the op, if you are financially secure and truly have a passion for it - do it, give it your all. Why not?  Just don't give your work away free while you are doing it.

Get your instagram rocking.



Hi Sharon,

1.  There have been many, and still are many great female fashion shooters. The point about being or not being attractive was made for two reasons: there is always a male/female relationship/reaction at work when both genders are on set together; it may or may not happen with all-female, I have little idea about that, and I was always most unhappy shooting men, simply because I had no notion of how to motivate them. The male/female working relationship is as wide and diverse as the people concerned; many made relationships that worked for several years, some were sequel sleepers with their muses, and it worked for both parties. The point is, as I wrote, it's about rapport, and only a very slow person on set will not realise that pretty damned quickly. How do you have rapport with somebody you want out of the studio as quickly as decently possible? Helmut Newton photographed my early rave Ava Gardner. He recounted how he detested working with her, and there are apparently very few good photographs from that session.

David Bailey and Jean Shrimpton were one such happy photographic/private union; to an extent, I would say that they made one another's careers. (Exactly the same befell me with my one and only muse: we made one another because of the magic the working relationship created; we never as much as touched in any romantic way. You can't buy these things, unfortunately - they are about chemistry and may or may not visit you in your career.)  Veruschka and Franco Rubartelli were such a union: he discovered her in Rome, they hit it off personally the first day they met (she didn't go home) and then with US Vogue, and the rest is both fashion photography history and fantasy. When their ardour cooled, they could no longer weave photographic magic and eventually it cost Franco all his international editions of Vogue; he ended up having a comeback for a short while, and then he took off for Venezuela where he's lived and worked pretty much ever since. So yeah, sex and fame and fashion are all rolled into one hot bundle and you play at your own risk, meaning that of all the people you love and who love you.

The other point is this: you mustn't think of it as being solely about the predatory male: there are as many models able and willing to use whatever they have going for them to get some photographer into a position where he might get them into one of the top glossies as there are men willing to exploit, and it's not just photographers sometimes exploiting: there was a huge scandal some years ago about owners of an international model agency exploiting it's girls for sexual delight; whether photographers are stupid enough to risk the quality of their own work for a few moments of sexual bliss is something else entirely, and I wonder if those girls think of that before they put out?

But here ¡s the difference between my peak and today: models now have the chance to earn more than many top photographers. The stakes are so much higher, and therefore the moral issues greater and less easy to forecast.

2. I agree 100%: don't give it away - you just ruin it for everybody else who is not yet, and perhaps never will be, financially secure.

Rob

GrahamBy

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2016, 05:04:05 am »

I had a chat with an opera singer the other day... who also does a lot of recital work, just her and a pianist. Almost always a male pianist.
She was quite straight up about it: the sexual tension makes for better work.

She's happily married and has no interest in actually doing anything with her accompanist, but the idea needs to be appealing to her...
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Endeavour

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2016, 07:00:09 am »

so now I need to learn the piano too?

seriously though, thanks for your comments. I did wonder if fashion was really a young man's game (unless you are already well established)
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graeme

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 07:07:05 am »

Just don't give your work away free

This bit is really, really important.
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Rob C

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2016, 07:53:43 am »

I had a chat with an opera singer the other day... who also does a lot of recital work, just her and a pianist. Almost always a male pianist.
She was quite straight up about it: the sexual tension makes for better work.

She's happily married and has no interest in actually doing anything with her accompanist, but the idea needs to be appealing to her...

Absolutely, and if it's never realised, then it works for longer.

The thing is, I think that it has to be alluded to, at some stage in the relationship, if only to ensure both parties are aware. You can't have a mental 'relationship' where you believe that only you are participating. I remember once laughing and saying that we had a relationship that neither of our spouses could enjoy with either of us. It was a special sort of - what - enjoyable masochism?

Incdentally, Graham, regarding the book: I went to the GPO today and the thing was there in the back rooms, but no info slip was in my box telling me so. Turns out that the system has been changed, and only non-registered stuff too big for the box gets a slip, the rest gets a text message sent. Guess what: they had my cellphone number screwed!

But, the book: I knew it was going to be little, but hell, I'd never have bought, sight seen, at that format. A book ain't a web picture - it needs the same reasonable format as a print.

Rob

GrahamBy

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2016, 08:19:11 am »

A book ain't a web picture - it needs the same reasonable format as a print.

Aye. I kept thinking "please, bigger!"

Although there is an interesting sequencing from (apparently) least sharp to most sharp...  that's only an impression after leafing through about 2/3 of volume 1. They're not chronological, in any case.
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bcooter

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2016, 11:17:25 am »

Mr. or Mrs. or Miss, or Ms. E,


I respect and usually agree with Rob C, but this time . . . ?

You asked some very broad questions that no one can answer without knowing you, but here goes.

1.  Age.  That is a fallacy.  Yes some clients will be prejudiced on age, race, nationality, color of hair, but that's something you can't control and nothing that really matters.  If you walk into a room and one of those factors stops you, find a way around it or politely go to another room.
One of the most successful commercial directors in LA never directed before he was fifty years old and went on to bill $35 million a year.  Some of the most respected and well paid DP's in movies are in their 70's working for directors in the 20's, 30's and 40's. 

2. Assisting.  I never assisted, it wasn't my way, but some people found it invaluable.  I've had assistants from 15 years ago with huge egos, $100,000 in school loans and believed they would be shooting in 6 months.  They're still assisting.

Everyone asks me how to become a photographer and the answer is simple.  Get good, put out a shingle, show your work to people that "buy" photography and boom you're a photographer.  Yes, it's harder than that but if it was easy everyone would do it (and cell phones in your pocket do not make you a photographer, though they don't stop you either).

3.  Dedicate 100%.  This is where everyone drops it.  They say they give 100% but the crew, associates and good clients I work with spend virtually all of their time on image creation, study and moving forward.
This isn't a job, this isn't a profession, it's a calling.  I was an Art Director at the start of my career, begin hiring good photographers, then a few great ones.  The first time I edited a beautiful shoot, I fell in love with the image. That evening walked into the President of our ad agency and quit.  I didn't know how to start, where to go, but I found a way. 

4.  Highs and Lows.  If you love image creation it can lift you to emotional levels so high you could never have dreamed possible.  Then a month later drop you to your knees in dispair.  To succeed you have to keep the boat always steady, always with a destination (which will change in time) and never believe your own press releases, never let one or two or twenty people stop, or elate you.

5.  Study, Study, Study, Practice, Practice, Practice.  This is a young industry in the world of industry, so look at work from the people that invented this biz.  Penn, Kane, Stern, Avedon, it's a long list but in their work is the basis of everything we do today and unlike today, they're wasn't a light modifier for every style, a school or online tutorial for every question.   They went into a room and invented their light fixtures, filters, lens choice, formats, directorial style.

6.  Distance yourself from negative people, because it wears on you.  Surround yourself with the best most positive people you can associate with and hire.    If someone is perpetually negative then get away from them asap.   

7.  Expect a lot of yourself and your crew/associates.  Don't settle for good enough.

8.  Think globally, not national or local.  When you start your career, local people will talk about local people.  That's too narrow a view.  Think the world and you'll learn from the world.

9.  Don't be a dick.  Treat crew, associates and clients with respect.  Pay crew before you're paid and don't ask anyone to do anything you're not willing to do yourself.  Keep it professional.  Crew is not there to get your laundry, wash your car or walk your dog.  Use them for their professional skills and they'll return in kind.

10.  Don't listen to me or anyone else, at least not 100%.   Be your own person, build your own look, be complete and know what you're doing.  This is no longer a business where an assistant loads film in a camera, lights for you and you just walk in and push the button.  (to some it is, but those people don't concern me).  You have to know the industry from start to finish and never be embarrassed to ask a question.  I would rather ask and look stupid, than fake it and never learn anything.  If your style or look doesn't work it's either 1 or more of three things.  Either you don't communicate well, or you're presenting to the wrong people, or maybe your just shooting in a genre that isn't flourishing.    The downside is you have to reboot.  The upside is in this biz if you shoot 50 images of shoes, then you're a shoe photographer, etc. etc.

11.  No excuses.  None of this "they got the job because they were young, female, male, blah blah".    If you don't get the gig or If the image fails, then you failed.  Period.   If you lay it off on someone else, then you'll never grow.    You can combine this with "never good enough".  I've been stoked from a shoot, then realize I could do better, always better.   

12. Bonding with talent/models/actors?   Yes it's great if your all on the same page, but honestly not the most important element.  What is important is you exceed the creative brief and story  (even if it's your own) and deliver something unique. 
A few years ago we did a gig that was a dream job for an actor/model.   The working title was the life of a Hollywood star and every element was built around her.  We showed storyboards, explained the brief and every scene she would say, "I don't understand my motivation", so we'd explain it again.
Maybe she was pulling my string, I don't know, I just know the results worked.

Now I don't believe in this sexual tension stuff, making it better, or more enticing, or bonding or whatever.   To me that's just words people use to flower up an image.   I've photographed some of the most beautiful and I guess sexy men and women alive and though I'm not blind I only see the value of their look, it never occurs to me to have sexual thoughts or tension or intensions.

This is one of the most incredible talents I've photographed.  She was tall, strong and very good on set.   Obviously since its lingerie her look was the reason she was selected, but constructed photographs are fiction, not reality.



IMO

BC
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Rob C

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2016, 03:37:16 pm »

Hi BC,

I don't really think our philosophies are that different.

1. (your numeration). Yes, there are people mixing age groups, but don't forget those people (the old ones) are usually in positions of power somewhere in the industry and have got the proof to show why they are still valid.

2. I assisted for six months and left because it wasn't ever my intention; I did it because a place I'd gone to work for folded, and I had never yet been working alone and had a family to feed. But, that six months forced my hand, I'm happy to say, so I went off the cliff and flew.

3. I agree, and have said it's the only reason you should ever do it: you can't imagine life without it.

4. Absolutely. And the swing can happen overnight.

5. In my case, technically and during my era, there was nothing much to learn you couldn't learn in a week; what there was to learn was how to refine what you'd learned that week. It took me about five or six years printing b/w and colour in high volume every day to reach that point. And when I got that first gig, I thought I was already a hot printer. Poor fool!

6. I was lucky. My wife had never been negative in her life. That was one of her great attractions for me: she balanced my natural doubts and tendency to procrastinate. All her life, through thick and thin, great years and suicidal ones, she never suggested a change of career for me; she made do and worked miracles, which is perhaps what the biblical tale about the loaves and fished is really all about.

7. If you care, as in (3), then you have no alternative open to you. Even if it ends up costing you money, which it can if things sometimes go awry.

8. I laughed at that one: I worked out of Glasgow and then Spain; when I used to cast for my calendars, wherever I was living, I would go to London for the girls, and it worked out well. My last cal for a regular client was my last in large part because of models. A new guy took the wheel within the client company (in Glasgow - and after I'd aleady started on the calendar planning) and decided that nope, we would use local Scottish girls. God alone knows why, but I imagine it was to do with his being a new broom, and the wish to play a heavy hand and become a local hero. I had already booked one girl from London, as usual, but the thing was then taken from my control and he selected the rest, the local chicks himself - I had nothing to do with it. I should have quit the gig, but having already started, it seemed silly to abort, and it would also have cost me a lot of bread, but in the end, using girls who'd never done that sort of work before killed it for me anyhow. You know, when I objected to using inexperienced girls, I was told, then you'll just have to work harder, won't you? Yeah, right, I'll do their job too. The blood grew so sour it was inevitably the end.

So you're right: think beyond local, every time!

12.  Bonding. There we differ. I can't not know that, for me, it was pretty much all about bonding at some mental level. Maybe you never had the luck to find - and be allowed by clients to use - one girl in particular - have a muse. Your lingerie girl is cute, but did you get the chance to work with her every week? That makes the difference. And man, does it save time! You can build on what you both already know works and what does not; you know where not to travel and which of her angles look okay in life but suck on film. Does this make the pictures you both do all look the same? I don't think so, but it sure gives you a handwriting you can call your own, and gives you your personal image as a photographer: I can only repeat myself on this: think Bailey/Shrimpton, Veruschka/Rubartelli and don't forget Avedon, who had a series of muses too. It just works. Or it did, when it was possible to work like that.

It wasn't limited to the models, though: much the same held with regular clients who used you because of the way you did the work. Again, the luck of the era, but I was mostly left alone to get on with it and come home with some bacon.

I saw an interview with Harri Peccinotti in Paris, where he mentions that in past times you could build up relationships with models, but that now it's impossible: they are always in the wrong country, fully booked and you just have to muck along with what you can get. So yep, times have changed, but the business isn't any easier, that's plain to see. Having said which, being easy was never part of the motivation: as in (3) that never enters you mind.

In the final analysis, I would say this: if you are going to make it, you will, regardless of who you know, or where you start. Drive and blind love are key.

Rob C
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 03:43:24 pm by Rob C »
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bcooter

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2016, 09:05:10 pm »

Rob this muse thing is a David Bailey (girls) thing or Bruce Weber thing.

I don't care because bonding with a model is like bonding with a lens.  It's too limited and I guess if you can get away with it if it's good, but the people like David Bailey bore.   

I do know Bailey could never see the shot below, cause he's make them move or jump, usually out of focus with bad processing and only in England would they call it good, hell they'd call it great.

I know you like Bailey but I never liked his work. To me he was a  a name.   But that's only my opinion.

I've shot one model that was everything i could expect and more and only used her once.



I would have used her for everything, but my producer said what good does that do you?

She was right.  I pushed this talent into every single project and clients rejected her because she was too unique.  I know that's a silly ass comment, but they want to show product, not art.

Still your view and mine are way different.  I push hard for the talent I love, but in the end the client knows what they are selling.  You were selling semi-sexual calenders, I'm selling product, regardless being clamped down and comfortable is not good.

Every talent is different, it's my job to find it and never be comfortable.

Me and comfort are not friends.

IMO

BC

BTW:  The creative community agrees because this image won 4 awards, not that this matters.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 06:39:41 am by bcooter »
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bcooter

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2016, 09:30:52 pm »

You seem to have the belief, drive, positivity, determination and desire to succeed. As far as direction is concerned only you know your strengths: Go with them.

You remind me of a young man I knew way back when.

Good luck. Go for it.


Kieth, your a good guy, I like you but a simple response. We don't know his commitment, his drive, his goal.

 This isn't facebook.

BC
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landscapephoto

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2016, 02:41:10 am »

I would like to point out something.

The question was about commercial/fashion/advertising photography. There are many more commercial/fashion/advertising photographers than the ones who will post on a forum. Most of them have relatively unglamorous jobs, mainly working for local businesses, taking corporate images or shooting for catalogues. The simple reason is that it is where the bulk of the market lies.

It is not extremely difficult to be one of these photographers. The most critical requirement concerns the business aspects.
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Rob C

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2016, 04:54:52 am »

I would like to point out something.

The question was about commercial/fashion/advertising photography. There are many more commercial/fashion/advertising photographers than the ones who will post on a forum. Most of them have relatively unglamorous jobs, mainly working for local businesses, taking corporate images or shooting for catalogues. The simple reason is that it is where the bulk of the market lies.

It is not extremely difficult to be one of these photographers. The most critical requirement concerns the business aspects.


Two things, and these don't mean I disagree with what you have written:

you are right about the jobs being (sometimes) unglamorous; the lack of glamour derives from the clients some have to use, and use is what I mean. In my own case, and where I differ greatly from BC, is that at no time had I the slightest interest in growing to be a business larger than myself plus wife. I wanted to be able to work at what I wanted to be able to work in. I hated the idea of becoming some sort of employer of other people; I wanted as few people around my working space as possible; I was never a club joiner nor team player. It was 100% self-indulgent and like that from the moment I realised it was what I wanted from life;

the business aspect is certainly the most difficult one in the equation, but perhaps for different reasons for different folks. Some enjoy the battle of wits where some hate it. Some have access, natural or otherwise, to the top dogs and the problems subside to minimal, whereas others have to try and climb up the ladder of protective obstruction that staff largely provides, and getting those on the lower rungs to make decisions is very difficult, even for them.

In other words, and to sum up my own view: it is a different thing for each individual; for some it's a challenge and for others not in the least. In the end, it's actually pointless both to ask the OP question and to attempt to answer it: each case is unique.

For the record: I have never been part of Facebook, Twitter, nor any other of those inventions. Were LuLa not about and by photographers, I wouldn't be here either.

Rob

bcooter

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2016, 10:33:22 am »

Never a truer word.

Keith, you and Rob are both right and come at this with experience and honest responses.

This is a very difficult industry and I have respect for anyone that has turned a profit and produced beautiful art.

I love Rob's business model because he pretty much invented it himself and it fit his goals.    I'd love to work without always have a dozen cooks in the kitchen, but that's something I've grown use to. 

If I had time I think it would be so cool to go to Rob's place, bring a small crew, great talent and just watch him shoot for a day.  I think it would be well worth the price of admission, because even from the street photography he is doing, you can tell he has the eye.  Same with your work.

But facebook.  I guess it's a necessary evil though I find facebook to be much more polite than some of the stuff that goes on in this forum and this is no reflection on Chris or Kevin or even 99% of the respondents.  It just seems to be the way of the world.

We use to say that no one would talk in those tones in person but today, I think they would.

Anyway Keith, Rob, thanks for sharing.

BC
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kers

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2016, 10:36:23 am »

Somebody once pointed out to me that a professional photographer is a photographer that makes money.

It does not mean you have to be a good photographer, in the same way that a good photographer sometimes does not make any money.

So the thing is to earn your money with photography and then you are a pro.
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Rob C

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2016, 11:42:35 am »



If I had time I think it would be so cool to go to Rob's place, bring a small crew, great talent and just watch him shoot for a day.  I think it would be well worth the price of admission, because even from the street photography he is doing, you can tell he has the eye.  Same with your work.


BC


That's very kind of you, BC! I didn't know you also look at the non-pro side of the forum.

Post me the talent, and after the work's done, send in the crew to make a faux 'shooting of' so I don't have to do anything under pressure! I'm old, you know, pretty worn out; you wanna see my jeans - they're real.

;-)

Rob C

landscapephoto

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2016, 12:45:57 pm »

Two things, and these don't mean I disagree with what you have written:

you are right about the jobs being (sometimes) unglamorous; the lack of glamour derives from the clients some have to use, and use is
what I mean. In my own case, and where I differ greatly from BC, is that at no time had I the slightest interest in growing to be a business larger than myself plus wife. I wanted to be able to work at what I wanted to be able to work in. I hated the idea of becoming some sort of employer of other people; I wanted as few people around my working space as possible; I was never a club joiner nor team player. It was 100% self-indulgent and like that from the moment I realised it was what I wanted from life


All what I wanted to point out is that there is more to professional photography than one will find on Internet forums.
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RSL

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Re: going pro - some advice please?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2016, 02:20:07 pm »

Seriously?
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