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Author Topic: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless  (Read 14134 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless (vs 36x24)
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2016, 02:11:38 am »

Hi,

It is right that competition is against high res 24x36. But most high res is coming from Sony, except the Canon 5DS, and I would expect that Sony will release new higher resolution sensors in 44x33 mm using pixels similar to their 24x36 offerings.

Fuji has indicated that the lenses are calculated for 100 MP.

Best regards
Erik

Looking at features other than sensors, these new 44x33mm format EVF cameras are competing with 36x24mm cameras costing around $3000, not the more expensive high frame rate, extremely rugged "PJ" models.  So there is quite a price gap for the image size increase of 38% on the short edge (most relevant to portraits and such) and 22% on the long edge (relevant to wider "landscape" shapes).

My gut feeling is that in the long run, larger formats will have to justify themselves largely by the optical advantages of their lenses, as sensor progress pushes beyond the limits of what most lenses are capable of delivering.  Pixel count differences alone will not be enough even for most users of high-level gear, and new technology will probably get more and more DR out of ever smaller pixels.
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bjanes

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Re: How Word Meanings Change
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2016, 07:56:17 am »

One that doesn't print, is by definition not doing or anything related to PHOTO-GRAPHY.... A photo-graph, can by definition only be the printed thing.

Using a camera, one doesn't mean that he is doing photo-graphy.... OTOH, photo-graphy (the printed thing) isn't related with anything that is printed coming out of a camera... but the print has to be the product out of a certain visualization process which includes directing and capturing as well as processing in order to achieve the result... (the photo-graph).

Theo's literal interpretation of the word photography ignores the fact that the meaning of a word is determined by usage rather than by a strict literal interpretation as explained here. The meaning of write has also changed. For example, we say that the camera writes the raw data to he memory card. Literally speaking, the verb record would be more appropriate than write. Does a phonograph write sound? As explained in the link, the meaning of literal has also changed.

If in general usage, Michael's work is regarded as photography, then he is photographer.

Comments?

Cheers,

Bill
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: How Word Meanings Change
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2016, 08:36:50 am »

Theo's literal interpretation of the word photography ignores the fact that the meaning of a word is determined by usage rather than by a strict literal interpretation as explained here. The meaning of write has also changed. For example, we say that the camera writes the raw data to he memory card. Literally speaking, the verb record would be more appropriate than write. Does a phonograph write sound? As explained in the link, the meaning of literal has also changed.

If in general usage, Michael's work is regarded as photography, then he is photographer.

Comments?

Cheers,

Bill


What I find difficult to grasp is why, when we have an actual topic that is, well, topical and fresh, would anyone want to hijack it to count how many angels can fit on the end of a pin? To me, this is disrespectful to the original poster and to the topic itself. What is the point of such a diversion in this particular thread? I grant that this comment is also a sidebar, posted in hopes that we can reform what is considered acceptable. Sorry, but the thread seems to have gone silent anyway.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2016, 08:55:32 am »

I was at the NYC Foto Works last week and Hassy was a sponsor.  The Hassy mirrorless camera was there to test out and I was less then impressed. 

The files are very nice, and the ergonomics and how the camera feels in your hand is wonderful.  However, the operation of the camera is not so great. 

Overall, I dont understand the desire for EVFs, and find them deficient on every camera I tested.  There is a delay that will really effect you ability to capture the moment.  If you are a hobbyist or always shoot from a tripod, sure, it is not too bad.  But if you shoot handheld, and especially if your livelihood depends on getting the "shot," EVF just don't cut it.  This is especially the case when you are moving fast and changing your composition on the fly. 

On top of that, the autofocus missed about half the time.  Sure, it was close, and may not matter to a hobbyist since it was so close, but when you need the focus on her eyes and instead it appears on her nose, that's a problem, especially when the project is going to print. 

On top of that, the manual focus is kind of weird.  As soon as you adjust the focus manually, the EVF zooms to 100% at the center of frame.  This does help ensure you nail focus, but then you loose your frame, and there is a delay on the EVF going back to full frame after you finish focusing.  In that short amount of time, you will probably loose focus due to you or your subject moving anyway. 

Everyone else there had the same feelings, especially those that shoot people, regardless of genre.  (NYC Foto Works is a pay for play portfolio review for professionals only, and they vet everyones portfolio before allowing them to participate, so the opinions of those who attend are pretty reflective of the higher end professional market.) 

With this being said, they also had the H system to test out.  That camera is very nice and works flawlessly, especially when using TrueFocus. 
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Manoli

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2016, 09:05:08 am »

Thanks for the feedback, Joe.
Why did I think that TrueFocus was coming to the X1D too ? Is that now definitively excluded ?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 09:12:52 am by Manoli »
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Rob C

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2016, 09:08:46 am »

Threads go silent for a variety of reasons, not least the one about relativity to the readers.

There are those who are able to buy without inflicting self-harm, those who could never buy, and those who, as in my situation, could buy but don't do so for a whole host of reasons quite apart from the photographic technology ones.

People shouldn't read too much into the death of a sequence of posts; it isn't always down to fights, but very often (IMO) because the interest level of many readers has been exhausted, after which there's nothing they want to, or can add.

I've just watched the Hasselblad video on the new camera, and yes, it is a very nice machine, but the question I have to ask myself is this: owning it, or anything other that what I already do own, would I have new outlets for my photography? The answer is in the negative. And that, I think, is the same thing that is currently bothering the entire camera industry: for anyone other than a specialized pro, we have reached and passed the borders of necessity; we can already do anthing we have the mind to do: anything that we can't do is a reflection of our own inabilities, not of the cameras.

Where these new expensive cameras have a future, I think, is for people just about to buy their first serious bit of kit. Or, alternatively, for those photographers who already know themselves and their interests very well, have been around long enough to have acquired too much gear, and reach the point where they say enough! let's get rid of most of this stuff and go for something very good and very simple, that does all that I'm really interested in doing.

I really hope that Hassy finds lots of people willing to buy. If I were still working, I'd own their products again.

Rob

Michael Erlewine

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2016, 09:10:15 am »

I was at the NYC Foto Works last week and Hassy was a sponsor.  The Hassy mirrorless camera was there to test out and I was less then impressed ... 

I can understand those impressions, but as a still-life and landscape photographer, the X1D has many useful features. I will not try to respond to all the comments, like the lack of focus points, for example. I understand that the final version (or soon after) will have something like 63 focus points. It might be helpful to watch this LULA video about how the X1D functions. I learned a lot from it.

https://luminous-landscape.com/hasselblad-x1d-hands-tour/
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JoeKitchen

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2016, 09:40:34 am »

Thanks for the feedback, Joe.
Why did I think that TrueFocus was coming to the X1D too ? Is that now definitively excluded ?

I would not count on it; they did not make any mention true focus was coming. 

And the 63 autofocus points is something else I don't understand.  With that many focus points, how are we to control which focus point is used, ensuring correct focus for the image? 

In my example above, if I need the eyes in focus, how can I ensure that the focus points over the eyes are utilized instead of say the one over the nose, especially when my compositions are fluid and changing? 

On top of that, the focus is on sensor and uses contrast detection to focus.  This does not always work.  Several times the focus mask in C1 has told me a high contrasty area is in focus when it is not.  This works off of the same principle. 

However, after some thought, just now in the shower, if Hassy designed the EVF to zoom into 100% in say the middle third or half only and left the outer frame of the viewfinder at full composition, manual focus would be pretty nice. 

PS. I will admit for the still life and landscape shooters, its a decent system, if you don't need in camera movements and tilt/swing. 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 09:50:13 am by JoeKitchen »
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Manoli

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2016, 10:01:17 am »

And the 63 autofocus points is something else I don't understand.  With that many focus points, how are we to control which focus point is used, ensuring correct focus for the image? 

In my example above, if I need the eyes in focus, how can I ensure that the focus points over the eyes are utilized instead of say the one over the nose, especially when my compositions are fluid and changing?

From memory, in the X1D video just posted on LuLa, the 'H-man' (sorry couldn't catch his name) indicated that the rear screen is touch focus. So, theoretically, a quick prod in the eyeball, and the cam should focus on that!

From what you report it still sounds that Hassy needs to work on he AF and firmware. Guess we won't know for sure until the finished product ships.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 10:06:22 am by Manoli »
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hubell

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2016, 11:03:02 am »

Apparently the focus point can also be moved by using the front and rear control dials; one is for up and the other for down. I tend not to photograph things that move, so I am not sure how easy it will be to move the focus point with either alternative if you want to keep your eye in the viewfinder.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2016, 12:19:00 pm »

Hi,

The way I shoot I normally decide on the focus point beforehand. That assumes that I have some ideas about composition and things.

Focus & recompose is supposed to introduce a focusing error, I am not sure that I ever have observed that. But, shooting at close distances the focal plane of the camera will be moved when the head is rotated. Doesn't matter a lot at 3 meters but quite a lot at 0.5 m.

When shooting macro outdoors on the ground an articulated display combined with movable focus point is a god-bless, as you can see the viewfinder without lying flat on ground, and pointing AF where you want focus usually does the job.

Features like that may be essential or not depending on what we do. For me, both are pretty high on my priority list.

Best regards
Erik




Apparently the focus point can also be moved by using the front and rear control dials; one is for up and the other for down. I tend not to photograph things that move, so I am not sure how easy it will be to move the focus point with either alternative if you want to keep your eye in the viewfinder.
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