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Author Topic: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses  (Read 16869 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2016, 10:43:24 am »

you are conflating image distortion with the shape of the projected circle.  rotating around the nodal point will have no image distortion but the image circle projected on the flat image plane will always have a distorted "egg" shape.

What you are saying is different... Rotating around the entrance pupil, will create an elliptical shape plane of focus... Not an "egg" shape at all on the projected image... "Egg shape" means distortion and its created when the "projected cone" from the lens and the image area are not parts of the same (hypothetical) sphere which has the entrance pupil ("nodal" point as you call it) on its center....

EDIT: Don't confuse the shape of the plane of focus with the shape of the image area... They are two different things... On the image area you have parts included in the depth of field range and parts that are not, distortion is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 10:49:54 am by Theodoros »
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Tsbphoto

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2016, 12:04:31 pm »

What you are saying is different... Rotating around the entrance pupil, will create an elliptical shape plane of focus... Not an "egg" shape at all on the projected image... "Egg shape" means distortion and its created when the "projected cone" from the lens and the image area are not parts of the same (hypothetical) sphere which has the entrance pupil ("nodal" point as you call it) on its center....

EDIT: Don't confuse the shape of the plane of focus with the shape of the image area... They are two different things... On the image area you have parts included in the depth of field range and parts that are not, distortion is irrelevant.

it really isnt even worth discussing with you anymore.  Arca is CORRECT and Alpa is WRONG (even though they both do it the exact same way, go figure)  have a nice weekend!  cheers!
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2016, 12:18:31 pm »

it really isnt even worth discussing with you anymore.  Arca is CORRECT and Alpa is WRONG (even though they both do it the exact same way, go figure)  have a nice weekend!  cheers!

It's a waste of time to argue with him. Just, let him have fun  ;D
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2016, 12:28:16 pm »

it really isnt even worth discussing with you anymore.  Arca is CORRECT and Alpa is WRONG (even though they both do it the exact same way, go figure)  have a nice weekend!  cheers!

Who told you that Arca is "correct"? ...everybody has told you that Arca has "less" error... it surely doesn't worth it to explain it to you... your attitude is one that shows no respect... One explains to you what you should already know when you invest in this kind of equipment and you, instead of thank him, you think of it as a "game" that ALPA should win.... Well, here is to you... the "new" ALPA SERPEND and the "traditional" Arca F-classic, are about the worst cameras in the market... The two cameras in production, that officer Scheimplug, if he was around, he would rate for an absolute "zero"....
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dchew

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2016, 03:15:32 pm »

Hey Bernard, did you get you question answered yet?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Graham Welland

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2016, 05:10:07 pm »

All this argument here is reminiscent of a storm in a tea cup ...

To Bernard's original question, if you want the simplest tech camera that'll provide tilts and swings and rear rise/fall then just go with a Cambo Actus DB. I can use this with anything from a Rodie 23HR through to, well anything long given a long enough base rail and bellows. Ditto with a Linhof Techno, I just prefer the size of my Cambo.

And for Theodoros, it tilts the lens around the optical center, assuming that the optical center is in the middle of the lens board. The tilt mechanism moves the entire board in an arc around that nodal point (unless you've raised the board - there's an optional front shift mount point for it on the base).

I've owned the Alpa for many years and used their tilt adapters. It is true that the axis of the tilt is behind the lens and in a fixed position which technically will move relative to the optical center of the lens if you change focus with the helicoid. However, as has been pointed out a number of times, it is really not difficult to use in the field and just takes small adjustments to dial in front/back focus and if necessary you may have to adjust a little rise/fall to compensate for the image shifting slightly.

Sure, there's theoretical perfection that Theodoros is obsessed with and then there's PRACTICAL usefulness that the pancake technical camera tilt functions provide. In this respect all of the pancake cameras are 'flawed' but they are nonetheless very usable and I've certainly never had any concerns about quality drop off when using tilt adjustments.

Finally there's also one advantage I found with the Alpa which was I could put the tilt adapter on the back of the camera and tilt the sensor vs the lens for looming of the image. Not quite as easy as doing it with a proper 4x5 view camera but still doable in the field, especially with decent CMOS live view. That's a difference between the Alpa approach and the Arca, although you can achieve the same thing with tilting of the entire camera body and then adjusting the tilt on the camera (Theodoros will have a mental breakdown over the geometric accuracy of that set up I'm sure! :) )
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 05:17:43 pm by Graham Welland »
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Graham

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2016, 07:03:44 pm »

Thanks Graham, I had somehow overlooked the Cambo.

I bought a used Arca R3mDi in the meantime, but it's still good to know there was a better option. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2016, 08:06:41 pm »

I just prefer the size of my Cambo.

And for Theodoros, it tilts the lens around the optical center, assuming that the optical center is in the middle of the lens board.....


I never said that the Actus mini "tilts the lens around the optical center"..... in fact it doesn't either... The lens board of it is in a parallel plane to the tilt arc's plane. But it can work well with some retrofocus lenses meant for DSLRs...

Thanks Graham, I had somehow overlooked the Cambo.

I bought a used Arca R3mDi in the meantime, but it's still good to know there was a better option. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Keep an eye on the Silvestri Flexicam too... That would be my first choice (for use with LF lenses) if I ever was (unlikely to ever be) after a compact technical camera....
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Graham Welland

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2016, 08:56:10 pm »

I never said that the Actus mini "tilts the lens around the optical center"..... in fact it doesn't either... The lens board of it is in a parallel plane to the tilt arc's plane. But it can work well with some retrofocus lenses meant for DSLRs...


Actually, I would agree. The board is actually mounted behind the center of axis but it still works just fine.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2016, 09:15:56 pm »

Actually, I would agree. The board is actually mounted behind the center of axis but it still works just fine.

Be careful with some lenses on the Actus.... the difference between the lens board's plane and the tilt plane may be small... but so is the tilt radius... It means that the percentage of error can be significant.

EDIT: May I ask why you choose the Actus over the Universallis Graham? As far as I understand, you mostly use LF lenses, The Actus may be a better choice with retrofocus lenses meant for DSLRs, but the Universallis is clearly much better (or should I say among the best) for use with "tech camera lenses" from Rodenstock or SK...  In fact, the Universallis could be an excellent choice for (both FF & MF) DSLR lenses if Arca would care to make the lens boards aimed for these lenses with a recessed mount...  I guess they'll be forced to do it (at least for the FF lenses) after the FUJI GFX hits the maket anyway....
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 11:09:07 pm by Theodoros »
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vjbelle

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2016, 08:08:16 am »

The major benefit of the Actus DB+ is that lenses are much less expensive than their counterparts mounted in either Alpa/Arca mounts.  Same lens, same shutter but the cost is considerably less. 

Victor
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Graham Welland

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2016, 05:36:55 pm »

Indeed Victor. I was able to replace my stolen Alpa 32HR, 90HR and SK 150 APO Digitar combo with a unmounted 32HR, 70HR and SK 120 APO Digitar for the new cost of the Alpa 32HR alone.

Whilst I miss aspects of shooting with the Alpa STC system, I find the Actus DB+ gives me all of the movements I need and a whole lot of extra flexibility in a mini bellows camera. Obviously this only became a practical alternative with the availability of usable CMOS live view - the advantage of the pancake cameras with focus helicoids being that you could use any MF back regardless of live view capabilities and measure/dial in subject distance,
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