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Author Topic: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses  (Read 16867 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2016, 06:12:56 pm »

Focusing is not a problem for CMOS.

Alpa's tilt would only affect CCD for focusing, nothing else. It doesn't affect image quality.

You haven't understand a word out of the subject, have you? Sensor or other image area has nothing to do with it... doesn't matter... after all you bought your ALPA for its ...looks!
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2016, 06:26:11 pm »

You haven't understand a word out of the subject, have you? Sensor or other image area has nothing to do with it... doesn't matter... after all you bought your ALPA for its ...looks!

I guess you have touched neither Arca nor Alpa with your hands. If you have used both, then you would be able to understand that the Arca's tilting can be exactly reproduced by Alpa (except focusing).
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ben730

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2016, 06:47:56 pm »

Bernard
You should also check the Cambo WRS. I decided to buy the Cambo because it's smaller and faster than Alpa and Arca
although, here in Small-Switzerland, the Arca and Alpa dealers are very engaged to sell their stuff.
I only tested these 2 Swiss Cameras for one day, but I'm afraid, I'm really happy with the dutch Cambo gear and won't switch.
For real wides I use the Digitar 24 and the Super-Digitar 28 (with P25+ and P40+).
If proper focused, they are sharp from 1.5 m to infinity, and I'm sure they will also be sharp with smaller pixels.......
I normally don't see a reason to tilt, except you want to bring on purpose some objects out of focus.....
or as Paul mentioned, increase the image circle, what I have never done BTW....
Cambo also offers tilt for the 28 HR.
But at the end, what ever you choose, they are all great cameras, if you learn how to work with your tools.......
Regards,
Ben
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 06:52:19 pm by ben730 »
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2016, 06:55:21 pm »

I guess you have touched neither Arca nor Alpa with your hands. If you have used both, then you would be able to understand that the Arca's tilting can be exactly reproduced by Alpa (except focusing).

To your surprise, I've used both, but use (converted for accuracy) Sinar with multishot backs and Rollei electronic shutters for my very complex interior architectural photography which requires significantly more movements and accuracy than what the cameras discussed here can provide... Other than that, I have a British Mech.Eng degree and have been involved in tech camera designs myself... So, if you don't trust me saying to you that ALPA's tilt mechanism on your camera (and any other tilt mechanism that "rotates" instead of "tilting" by its center the lens) is "bad engineering"... Ask some other (or make a subject) on the matter... Then you'll have all knowledgeable in the forum telling you the same...
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 07:11:39 pm »

To your surprise, I've used both, but use (converted for accuracy) Sinar with multishot backs and Rollei electronic shutters for my very complex interior architectural photography which requires significantly more movements and accuracy than what the cameras discussed here can provide... Other than that, I have a British Mech.Eng degree and have been involved in tech camera designs myself... So, if you don't trust me saying to you that ALPA's tilt mechanism on your camera (and any other tilt mechanism that "rotates" instead of "tilting" by its center the lens) is "bad engineering"... Ask some other (or make a subject) on the matter... Then you'll have all knowledgeable in the forum telling you the same...

It's no rocket science when you tilt a Rodenstock lens (either Arca or Alpa). The only difference is the alignment between the tilt axis and the entrance pupil. When these two do align with each other, the focus does not change while you tilt. When they don't, then you'll need to re-focus to compensate for the focus shift.

Your statements indicate that you think that the misalignment between the tilt axis and the entrance pupil would cause image degradation. I strongly doubt that you really understand these mechanism clearly.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 07:21:39 pm »

It's no rocket science when you tilt a Rodenstock lens (either Arca or Alpa). The only difference is the alignment between the tilt axis and the entrance pupil. When these two do align with each other, the focus does not change while you tilt. When they don't, then you'll need to re-focus to compensate for the focus shift.

Your statements indicate that you think that the misalignment between the tilt axis and the entrance pupil would cause image degradation. I strongly doubt that you really understand these mechanism clearly.

If the entrance pupil is off axis... you get an "eggy" (like an egg) shape projected on your image area instead of a circle... It takes no rocket science for you to understand that... it simply means a distorted image and change for worst of the lens characteristics (out of the ideal)...
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 07:30:30 pm »

If the entrance pupil is off axis... you get an "eggy" (like an egg) shape projected on your image area instead of a circle... It takes no rocket science for you to understand that... it simply means a distorted image and change for worst of the lens characteristics (out of the ideal)...

When you tilt a Rodenstock lens with an Arca, you rotate the whole lens group. It is equivalent as if you tilt the Rodenstock lens with an Alpa and at the same time do some re-focusing and a little bit of shift of digital back to compensate.

If you get your so called "eggy" shape on a tilted Alpa, then you would also get it on a tilted Arca. Let me give you some hint: try to pick the whole lens group of the Rodenstock as frame of reference for both Arca and Alpa.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 07:36:31 pm »

When you tilt a Rodenstock lens with an Arca, you rotate the whole lens group. It is equivalent as if you tilt the Rodenstock lens with an Alpa and at the same time do some re-focusing and a little bit of shift of digital back to compensate.

If you get your so called "eggy" shape on a tilted Alpa, then you would also get it on a tilted Arca.

Nope! when you correct for focus, you correct for the focus plane! not for the misalighment of the lens entrance pupil. The center of the sphere that the cone projected on your image area is part off, is then misaligned, so the projection is not a circle anymore, its an "eggy" shape one.
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 07:40:05 pm »

Nope! when you correct for focus, you correct for the focus plane! not for the misalighment of the lens entrance pupil. The center of the sphere that the cone projected on your image area is part off, is then misaligned, so the projection is not a circle anymore, its an "eggy" shape one.

Let me give you some hint: try to pick the whole lens group of the Rodenstock as frame of reference for both Arca and Alpa. Try to figure out how the remaining of the system reacts towards the lens in each case. (I hope you understand how the Rodenstock lens is focused - it has no floating lens element.)
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 08:11:59 pm »

I attach a simple draw to show how to equivalently reproduce the tilt of Arca by re-focusing and a little bit of shifting with Alpa. Such job is trivially easy for a CMOS digital back with real LiveView. Image quality, framing, DoF and whatsoever, everything can be the same.
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dchew

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 09:08:32 pm »

Do either of you own an Alpa tilt adapter? Cuz that is not how it works. The tilt hinge is in the center, not at one end. See those little screws? They surround the hinge point.

The "top" collapses in and the "bottom" extends out.

Theodoros, how is this worse than Arca?


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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 09:47:58 pm »

Do either of you own an Alpa tilt adapter? Cuz that is not how it works. The tilt hinge is in the center, not at one end. See those little screws? They surround the hinge point.

The "top" collapses in and the "bottom" extends out.

Theodoros, how is this worse than Arca?

I've just checked my Alpa tilt adapter and the tilt axis seems to be on the main optical axis. This does not affect our discussion above. Whereever Alpa's tilt axis is, it doesn't change the fact that Alpa can always equivalently reproduce Arca's tilt with some re-focusing and shift.

Victor's point is regarding focus shift while tilting, when Alpa's tilt axis is not right on the entrance pupil of each specific lens.

Theodoros however mistakenly imply that Alpa's tilt would affect image quality.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 09:52:25 pm by Yunli Song »
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 04:16:34 am »

Despite the fact that I thought that the ALPA tilt was a base one rather than a mechanism that tilts the board by its center, if a camera looses focus when the lens is tilted, it is a proof that the lens hasn't been tilted by its entrance pupil. The focusing system of the lens (either by a helical displacement between the cells or by adjusting the distance between the image area and the lens rear cell) is totally irrelevant and can't -in either case- correct for the position of the entrance pupil. What one does by re-focusing the lens, is correcting for the entrance pupil distance from the image area, it doesn't mean (nor it is the case) that the entrance pupil is moved back to the same point where it was before (although the distance from the image area is the same) and thus, the system looses its geometry (the entrance pupil isn't positioned anymore at an axis that crosses the image area at its center, perpendicular to it).
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dchew

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2016, 05:52:53 am »

I know that Theodoros, but you didn't answer my question. Isn't it true that Arca's tilt mechanism is in the base of the camera, and therefore is further away from the entrance pupil than Alpa's?

So which design do you think is "worse" from that perspective? Shouldn't you really be harping on Arca more than Alpa?

These things are pancake technical cameras. If you (or in this case Bernard) wants a view camera then get a view camera. Or the Linhof Techno. All this time you have been arguing Alpa's design /engineering is bad because it doesn't do something the way a view camera does. Well that's not what it is. And in fact, as pointed out in the other thread, unless the lens board mount has the ability to reposition each lens so it's entrance pupil is precisely aligned with the tilt mechanism, most view cameras have exactly the same problem, albeit to a lesser degree. 

Please note for me, and I think most owners of Alpa, Arca and Cambo, none of the above arguments matter. Bernard asked about using these for landscape, while Theodoros is complaining it affects his "very complex architectural photography".

So to summarize, Alpa's design does not work as Theodoros thought, despite his claim that he has used the system before. From the "tilt and refocus" perspective, Cambo is the best, followed by Alpa then Arca.* None of which matters much at all, especially in landscape photography.
 
Dave

*It's been 6 years since I handled a Cambo. I don't know for sure whether the lens tilt mechanism in the lens mount hinges close to the lens or at the base near the camera, so I'll give it the benefit of my ignorance and assume it is closest to the lens.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 06:06:42 am by dchew »
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yaya

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2016, 06:09:58 am »

Thank you Dave for bringing some sense into this senseless argument... :D
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2016, 06:51:00 am »

I know that Theodoros, but you didn't answer my question. Isn't it true that Arca's tilt mechanism is in the base of the camera, and therefore is further away from the entrance pupil than Alpa's?


Dave, the tilt mechanism of the Arca is NOT "in the base of the camera" ...only the button (the control wheel) is there!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2016, 08:07:54 am »

I was far from expecting this genuine question to generate such a heated debate. ;)

Anyway, thank you all for your inputs.

Speaking of tilt, I have discovered a great iPhone app called "Tilt calculator"! http://snapi.org/snapi/Tilt_Calculator.html

You probably already all knew about it, but I didn't.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paul2660

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 08:52:57 am »

Great app. But for me the best tilt calculator is Live Vew.

Paul C.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 09:05:51 am »

Great app. But for me the best tilt calculator is Live Vew.

Especially with a split view like that on the D810.

Cheers,
Bernard

vjbelle

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 09:31:26 am »

Great app. But for me the best tilt calculator is Live Vew.

Paul C.

++1

Victor
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