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Author Topic: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses  (Read 16871 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« on: September 28, 2016, 12:17:28 am »

Team,

As part of my on-going investigation about Tech cameras for backs, I have started to look into the Alpa offering.

Sounds very interesting, but I cannot find any reference to using tilt with wide tech lenses such as the Rodenstock 23mm f5.6.

- Can this be done?
- Is there another way to use tilt wit wide lenses with any of the Alpa cameras? I understand that the 12 FPS can enable mounting a Canon 24mm T/S, but to me this isn't a very high quality wide.

Overall, I have a hard time understanding how Alpa cameras are superior to their Arca Swiss counterparts?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
 

AreBee

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 08:05:01 am »

Bernard,

Quote
...I cannot find any reference to using tilt with wide tech lenses such as the Rodenstock 23mm f5.6.

- Can this be done?

No. The shortest focal length SB (Short Barrel) lens that can be used in conjunction with the Alpa 17mm tilt adapter, if infinity must be reached, is 32mm.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 08:33:07 am »

Bernard,

No. The shortest focal length SB (Short Barrel) lens that can be used in conjunction with the Alpa 17mm tilt adapter, if infinity must be reached, is 32mm.

Thanks, I am a bit at a loss as to why anyone interested in landscape would pick an Alpa over an Arca with these limitations... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

AreBee

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 09:53:15 am »

Bernard,

Quote
...I am a bit at a loss as to why anyone interested in landscape would pick an Alpa over an Arca with these limitations...

I am at a bit of a loss as to why anyone considers tilt mandatory for landscape photography.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 10:19:39 am »

I am at a bit of a loss as to why anyone considers tilt mandatory for landscape photography.

There are of course many ways to shoot landscape without tilt, but a major part of the value of shooting with a tech cam over an SLR is often considered to be movements is it not?

Cheers,
Bernard

Paul2660

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 10:36:37 am »

The other thing to remember is the 70mm image circle of both the 23 and 28HR Rodenstocks.  Thus with any back close to 645 dimensions, you will be limited to around 4 to 5mm max shift and 6mm rise.  This is not due to the lens optics, but Rodenstock choses to place a hard cut off to indicate to the photographer where the edge of the IC is.  This creates a hard vignette un-correctable in post, it will also at times give you a lighter band before the hard vignette which can case problems with solid's like a blue sky,  Will not be an issue with trees, or other foliage.   The 32 HR-W and 40 HR-2 are 90mm IC and thus can allow for a lot more shift if that is what you are interested in.

Also remember that older 23 HR lenses were known for a terrible flare issue, but Rodenstock seems to have fixed a lot of that with a newer coating.  Several photographers I know of have returned older 23 HR lenses to Rodenstock to have this coating added with good results.  For my work the 23mm is too expensive and to limited on shifts but optically amazing for sure.

Edit: the 23 and 28 greatly benefit when used with  the Rodentstock CF (same filter for both lenses), even on center shot.  The 32mm also works better with the CF but more so on shifts of 10mm or more.


Acra will allow up to 5mm of tilt with all lenses, however you can't have tilt and swing together at the same time.  You are limited to 15mm of shift with the rm3di unless you rotate the camera 90 degrees to allow your rise/fall to become shift. 

For me tilt in MF very important, one thing I miss with the XF system.  I prefer as much of the image in focus as possible and most times with the the 28HR (no longer have) or 32 HR-W only .5 to 1 degree of tilt is needed for the look I prefer.  With the XF you have back to focus stacking which can be problematic depending on the scene and conditions (wind).  But the LCC process of the tech camera wears on me just as much or more.

Paul C
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 10:43:56 am by Paul2660 »
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AreBee

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 11:05:04 am »

Bernard,

Quote
...a major part of the value of shooting with a tech cam over an SLR is often considered to be movements...

Value judgement varies from person to person.
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vjbelle

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 01:11:29 pm »

Another thing to be aware of with the Alpa mounted lenses is that normal entrance pupil location is never at the swing or tilt axis.  This makes tilts and or swings very problematic as the entire focus shifts with those movements.  I don't use my Alpa much any more but instead an Actus DB+ where I was amazed at how convenient it is to have yaw free swings and tilts.  If I were you I would stay away from the Alpa offerings if you are considering movements as there are less expensive and better solutions.

Victor
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 04:14:59 pm »

Bernard,

Value judgement varies from person to person.

Indeed. If I may ask a more open question then, what made you select an Alpa for landscape work over an Arca?

Cheers,
Bernard

Christopher

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 04:44:42 pm »

I can't answer for him, but this photokina once again showed me that it was a good decision to go with Arca and I would do it again.

Alpa makes great cameras, but for me it once again had quite a "nose in the air" flair when discussing their products with them.

In addition I found there cube a joke... I love the idea but announcing something and then at the show: oh it's just a prototype... nothing final... it's just a first design... oh price, no idea yet...

The idea of a modular cube is great, but it just felt like a normal novoflex product with black paint. It could take any load as there was no way to change the "tension" on the movements. However, it was only a prototype...


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dchew

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 05:10:08 pm »

Bernard,
I chose Alpa over Arca for a few reasons:

First, l don't use lenses shorter than a 24mm equivalent in 135 format. I could give you all sorts of mumbo jumbo about why, but basically it is because I suck a shooting really wide. Therefore, the Alpa tilt limitation of 32mm or greater was not a limitation for me.

Second, I want a small, relatively light and simple system. In my evaluation, the Alpa seemed like the design that would survive my abuse the best. So far so good. However, note the Factum was not released when I made the choice (early 2011) so that camera may have fit my needs.

Third, and this is purely personal preference, I did not like Arca's very long racking helical design.

Basically for me the Alpa STC is the perfect camera for how I shoot and what I like to shoot. It has exactly what I need and nothing I don't.

Dave

Thanks, I am a bit at a loss as to why anyone interested in landscape would pick an Alpa over an Arca with these limitations... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 05:15:42 pm »

Thanks Dave.

Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2016, 05:21:22 pm »

I can't answer for him, but this photokina once again showed me that it was a good decision to go with Arca and I would do it again.

Alpa makes great cameras, but for me it once again had quite a "nose in the air" flair when discussing their products with them.

In addition I found there cube a joke... I love the idea but announcing something and then at the show: oh it's just a prototype... nothing final... it's just a first design... oh price, no idea yet...

The idea of a modular cube is great, but it just felt like a normal novoflex product with black paint. It could take any load as there was no way to change the "tension" on the movements. However, it was only a prototype...


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Alpa's tilt is a joke.... it moves off axis the entrance pupil of the lens and causes distortions (not to mention the drop of lens performance)... The ALPA GON system is a consequence of making the SERPENT a "modular view camera"...  Another joke by ALPA.... Another view camera added to the mass of extremely badly designed cameras that the market is full of, which instead of correcting distortions adds more and affects negatively lens performance on top of that... A camera with all tilts and swings bellow all shifts in 2016? One can't help but to wonder on the (basic) knowledge on optical engineering the designers of such products have....  :o
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 05:46:18 pm by Theodoros »
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2016, 05:22:54 pm »

Thanks, I am a bit at a loss as to why anyone interested in landscape would pick an Alpa over an Arca with these limitations... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Arca is indeed a better choice than Alpa if you take the tilt capability of wider-than-32mm lenses into consideration.

Personally I prefer Alpa for the look and the build quality, i.e. something that can be "exhibited" on the book shelf.
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2016, 05:26:05 pm »

Alpa's tilt is a joke.... it drops the entrance pupil of the lens and causes distortions... The ALPA GON system is a consequence of making the SERPENT a "modular view camera"...  Another joke by ALPA.... Another view camera added to the mass of extremely badly designed cameras which instead of correcting distortions adds more and affects negatively lens performance on top of that... A camera with all tilts and swings bellow all shifts in 2016? One can't help but to wonder on the (basic) knowledge on optical engineering the designers of such products have....

Not sure what you are talking about but I don't see problems when everyone is using CMOS for LiveView in 2016.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2016, 05:32:07 pm »

Not sure what you are talking about but I don't see problems when everyone is using CMOS for LiveView in 2016.

What Cmos or other image area has to do with misalignment of optics that are meant to work in an axis?  Wrong engineering is bad engineering and thus making mechanisms that cause misalignment (and therefore distortions) is nothing more than bad engineering...
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2016, 05:51:07 pm »

What Cmos or other image area has to do with misalignment of optics that are meant to work in an axis?  Wrong engineering is bad engineering and thus making mechanisms that cause misalignment (and therefore distortions) is nothing more than bad engineering...

Alpa's tilt doesn't interfere with the lens' axis at all. It only affects high precision focus ring's validity, which is not a problem for CMOS. You can even install Alpa's tilt adapter to the digital back to enable back tilting. There is no misalignment of optics.
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alatreille

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 05:56:52 pm »

Acra will allow up to 5mm of tilt with all lenses, however you can't have tilt and swing together at the same time.  You are limited to 15mm of shift with the rm3di unless you rotate the camera 90 degrees to allow your rise/fall to become shift. 

Paul C

If you use the Rotaslide adapter, you get 24mm each direction.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 06:01:25 pm »

Alpa's tilt doesn't interfere with the lens' axis at all. It only affects high precision focus ring's validity, which is not a problem for CMOS. You can even install Alpa's tilt adapter to the digital back to enable back tilting. There is no misalignment of optics.

I'm afraid you are misinformed (probably by the salesman of the equipment)... The entrance pupil of a lens (any lens) is meant to stay on the axis that is perpendicular and crosses the image area to exactly its center... If one uses base tilts, the entrance pupil of the lens moves off this axis... It's like opening a door (Alpa's mechanism practically is/acts like a door)... In a properly designed system, focus shouldn't change if you tilt your lens... That's why T/S lenses of DSLRs use a tilt arc for tilting the lens, instead of a (much simpler and cheaper to make) base-tilt/"door" mechanism...
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voidshatter

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Re: Alpa Tilt with wide lenses
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2016, 06:06:54 pm »

I'm afraid you are misinformed (probably by the salesman of the equipment)... The entrance pupil of a lens (any lens) is meant to stay on the axis that is perpendicular and crosses the image area to exactly its center... If one uses base tilts, the entrance pupil of the lens moves off this axis... It's like opening a door (Alpa's mechanism practically is/acts like a door)... In a properly designed system, focus shouldn't change if you tilt your lens... That's why T/S lenses of DSLRs use a tilt arc for tilting the lens, instead of a (much simpler and cheaper to make) base-tilt/"door" mechanism...

Focusing is not a problem for CMOS.

Alpa's tilt would only affect CCD for focusing, nothing else. It doesn't affect image quality.
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