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Author Topic: Nikon in difficulty?  (Read 34257 times)

Manoli

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2016, 06:03:30 AM »

Nikon has had the best few years for a very long time, maybe ever. There are so, so many choosing the Nikon D810 over medium format now.

Well, you can't both be correct!
From memory Thom Hogan recently published an article on the disappointing Nikon financials.

Sales down 20%, Income down 30%, disastrous Coolpix, Nikon1 performance and non-existent DL cams all paint a dismal picture, and with no mirrorless or video/motion presence worth speaking of, an even worse outlook. The only area that made up for the loss in imaging was the successful Precision semiconductor group.

Bottom line is the balance sheet doesn't lie.
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AreBee

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 07:24:42 AM »

Manoli,

Quote
Bottom line is the balance sheet doesn't lie.

But the individuals that prepare it are... economical with the truth.
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Manoli

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 07:54:00 AM »

Rob,

But the individuals that prepare it are... economical with the truth.

Creative accounting aside, declining cash and declining receivables tell their own story. If accurate.
In an audited balance sheet, I'd assume they would be.
I haven't seen the financials and only go on what Hogan said.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-first-quarter-results.html

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TomFrerichs

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 06:58:57 PM »

A further link for Thom Hogan about Nikon and Photokina. And perhaps a suggestion to take a deep breath?

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/feelings-nothing-more-than.html

tom
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2016, 08:34:46 PM »

A further link for Thom Hogan about Nikon and Photokina. And perhaps a suggestion to take a deep breath?

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/feelings-nothing-more-than.html

One of the best articles by Thom recently.

Nikon is nowhere near bankrupt and the company has proven time and again in the past its ability to come up with their best products when they are against the wall. The D3 took the world by storm when many people were 100% certain that Nikon was years ahead in full frame technology and was basically already buried.

Anybody taking actions images owe himself to test a D5 and that will show plenty that Nikon currently has the best AF technology on the market, period. This is the key issues most DSLR users have had with bright lenses, now I get 95% tack sharp images at f1.4 with the 105mm f1.4. I am about to sell my great Otus 85mm f1.4 because I get so many keepers with the Nikon that is nearly as good wide open (meaning very sharp in the corners at f1.4) and has IMHO more pleasing bokeh.

I get the concern some may have about sensor sourcing, but I don't share this concern. We will soon get a D900 combining a great sensor with this same AF technology and that will most probably be my walk around camera for years to come when I don't want to carry the soon to be bought higher end beast.

And by the way, even if they don't make it, who cares really. Most of the viewers of this forum could afford to maintain 5 systems in parallel without making a dent in their bank account. We'll soon enough get great converters to mount the tens of millions of Nikkor lenses out there in the field on an A9 if ever the D900 comes short of expectations. There are a lot more pressing issues to lose sleep on.

As far as I am concerned, I am more excited by my new Profoto softbox than by any of the Kina announcements, perhaps short of the Fuji "MF" system.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 09:19:12 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2016, 06:49:43 AM »

Same here...

Best regards
Erik



Are you sure?

I certainly couldn't, but there again I've only ever been an image maker.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2016, 04:23:29 PM »

Are you sure?

I certainly couldn't, but there again I've only ever been an image maker.

Which works too, the Nikon system has never been this good to make wonderful images!

Cheers,
Bernard
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Cornfield

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2016, 06:31:53 PM »

Who knows. Their Photokina showing was diabolically and shamefully bad. at least they have some room to move on the D810 successor, but it seems they are at the mercy of Sony on the sensor side, not a good place to be.

Absolutely spot on.  Nikon are in a very difficult place and don't seem to know how to move forward.  Thom Hogan relays my thoughts using different words.

I have this evening returned from Cologne and after spending time with people on the inside at Nikon they are concerned.  The d810 is still the best dslr available but a fully functioning, positive Nikon should have produced a killer d820 but they can't because Sony won't cooperate.  I wish I was wrong but I like to say it as I see it.
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Yashika

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2016, 10:13:10 PM »

If you have been happy with them for forty years, then I'd suggest hang on in there and wait for reality, not rumour.

Rob C

I agree. Not sure what this fellow wants from Nikon.

Nikon came out with the D5 and the D500, both class leaders. The D810 still class leader. Every super telephoto lens they make, 200 - 800mm, class leader.

Photokina is a single show, not year summary. This year, Nikon created benchmarks with D500 and D5. Their D810 has remained benchmark more than 2 years.

The new 105 f/1.4 is new benchmark.

Sony has no benchmark. Canon still behind in its camera.
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Yashika

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2016, 11:00:56 PM »

Nikon are in a very difficult place and don't seem to know how to move forward.

The d810 is still the best dslr available but a fully functioning, positive Nikon should have produced a killer d820 but they can't because Sony won't cooperate.

I don't think you're seeing true perspective. Nikon is class leader in more areas than Sony or Canon.

Not sure what you mean by fully functioning. Nikon just introduce 2 of the most functioning cameras, D5 and D500, elevate AF beyond other vendors, buffer byon other vendor, ISO beyond other vendors.

Nikon's flagship camera the D5 all Nikon technology. D500 same. D810 Sony sensor but not so D5 or D500.

Sony only leads in one category of sensor, behind others in fully capable cameras. Sony behind in lenses, especially at long end.

Nikon leads in action prime lenses, lead in action AF cameras, and for these they use Nikon action sensors, buffers, all class lead.
Came out with benchmark 105 f/1.4 also, all this year.

Nikon full functional quality better than Sony in most area but 1 kind of sensor on a slow non action camera. Quite possibly Nikon is working on changing to own sensors for D810 replacement. Should Nikon make own sensor, may prove better than Sony. They already make better lenses, action sensors, and cameras than Sony.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2016, 11:16:44 PM »

Considering that even Canon managed to reach 13+ stops DR, it seems pretty clear today that sensors are becoming a commodity with very little differentiation in terms of image quality. The valable IP today with real impact of imaging is in AF technology and lenses look and these are the 2 areas where the Nikon system is IMHO ahead of everybody else.

For sensors the challenge remains read out speed everything else being equal.

Nikon's issues aren't related to technology, it is more about poor product planning and misguided strategic investments. They would be florishing with the exact same available technology had they invested in an ambitious APS-C mirrorless system instead of the 1 series 5 years ago. Their issue is their upper mgt, not their technology.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 11:25:37 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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Mike D. B.

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2016, 12:06:47 AM »

Their issue is their upper mgt, not their technology.

Cheers,
Bernard
I agree, Bernhard.  And not only at Nikon but with so many other companies, be they car manufacturers, or other of products and services.

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2016, 01:14:02 AM »

Releasing top-class products doesn't mean you're in a good position from a product development or competitive standpoint. It's merely a prerequisite for even being in the game - if a company can't produce a class-leading product (be it a body, lens or sensor) for at least one major photographic application, they're not even considered. That's why no-one mentions Olympus, Fujifilm or Samsung - without a full-frame camera system, they're not in the game.

Sensor quality matters a lot - Canon lost a lot of market share over the issue. So far, only Sony has released a high-resolution (for its time), high-DR sensor. Nikon and Pentax both use the older, 36MP version. They also make the 50MP and 100MP medium-format sensors used by a number of manufacturers. At high ISO, the A7R2's sensor also demonstrates great image quality at high ISO, competitive with the 1Dx2 and D5. Not to mention the A7S sensor, if you don't need the resolution - ample proof that Sony leads the pack, or is tied in front, no matter the DR, resolution or ISO requirement. Canon, so far, hasn't made a high-resolution sensor in the same league - the 50MP 5Ds sensor falls far short DR-wise, and performs poorly at high ISO. Nikon hasn't designed or made a high-resolution sensor at all - they're almost totally reliant on Sony for their better sensors. That's an ace in Sony's hands.

Nikon has the advantage in SLR AF systems. But how much of that can be translated to mirrorless systems? Sony leads the way in mirrorless AF technology, with Canon not far behind and Nikon not even in third place. To remain competitive for the next decade, they'll have to move in that direction, or risk becoming the next Nokia, stuck with old technology while everyone else moves ahead. After gaining a foothold with non-action shooters and Canonites frustrated with poor sensors, Sony is close to having a mirrorless camera capable of replacing an SLR for wedding, event and other general photography - indeed, for anything other than sports or fast action - and the D810 and A99 Mk 2 are likely more vulnerable than the 5D4 or D750. They're probably not too far off having a sports-capable system either - almost certainly, they'll be aiming to have one in the stands (likely als 8k-capable) in time for the 2020 Olympics, and the fact that they're in Tokyo will only make it a more important goal for them.

Nikon designs and makes its own lenses (some of which are great, some of which - particularly the zooms, which are the bread-and-butter of many photographers - aren't up to the standard of the latest Canon and Sony zooms), which is probably its greatest strength. But Sony has somewhat neutralised this by teaming up with Zeiss, at no cost to itself - being an optics company which doesn't make cameras and relies on other people's cameras to sell lenses, Zeiss' relationship with Sony is entirely symbiotic, rather than competitive or parasitic.

Yes, at the moment, Nikon is still ahead. But the momentum is in Sony's favour, and Sony also holds a better hand - there's nothing Nikon can do to slow down Sony other than developing and releasing better products, but far more that Sony can do to pile the hurt on Nikon should it find it in their advantage to do so.
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scyth

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2016, 01:23:48 AM »

That's why no-one mentions Olympus, Fujifilm or Samsung - without a full-frame camera system, they're not in the game.

and was Nikon not in the game w/o FF dSLR back then (when Canon had it already) ? or was it ?
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scyth

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2016, 01:26:24 AM »

Nikon has the advantage in SLR AF systems.
Nikon 1 had a very good AF system being dSLM
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scyth

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2016, 01:32:58 AM »

but not so D5 or D500.
where one can see that D500 is not Sony designed & made btw ? the graph @ http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D500  very much shows Sony's Aptina-patent-based dual gain sensor tech
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2016, 02:26:15 AM »

and was Nikon not in the game w/o FF dSLR back then (when Canon had it already) ? or was it ?

Full-frame wasn't the norm then - only Canon had it. Even then, Nikon was desperately playing catch-up for a while. Canon could have had them down for the count had they put a good AF system into the 5D2 (as Nikon did with the D700) instead of trying to protect their precious market segmentation. Which would also be a timely warning to Canon/Nikon today - if you don't cannibalise your own lineup when technology allows you to, then someone else will do it for you.
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eronald

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2016, 03:58:48 AM »

where one can see that D500 is not Sony designed & made btw ? the graph @ http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D500  very much shows Sony's Aptina-patent-based dual gain sensor tech
interesting remark.
could you give a ref to the tech please and save me some time?
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eronald

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2016, 04:06:09 AM »

Everything you say is very true provided Sony really wants to be in the camera business and not the component business; but I suspect they really want to turn themselves into the ARM of sensors - and remember Acorn and Olivetti exited computers quite early ...

In other words, I think Sony knows cameras will be commoditized, but sensor/optic combos will be everywhere. They stick it out until everybody else is their customer, or until they own a piece of everyone else except Canon, and they're happy.

On a related note, I'm surprised Canon isn't pouring money into sensor research, seeing the market for phones, cars etc.

Nikon and photography generally look to be a footnote of a much larger move to electronic imaging systems in which ultimately commoditisation will prevail.

Edmund

Releasing top-class products doesn't mean you're in a good position from a product development or competitive standpoint. It's merely a prerequisite for even being in the game - if a company can't produce a class-leading product (be it a body, lens or sensor) for at least one major photographic application, they're not even considered. That's why no-one mentions Olympus, Fujifilm or Samsung - without a full-frame camera system, they're not in the game.

Sensor quality matters a lot - Canon lost a lot of market share over the issue. So far, only Sony has released a high-resolution (for its time), high-DR sensor. Nikon and Pentax both use the older, 36MP version. They also make the 50MP and 100MP medium-format sensors used by a number of manufacturers. At high ISO, the A7R2's sensor also demonstrates great image quality at high ISO, competitive with the 1Dx2 and D5. Not to mention the A7S sensor, if you don't need the resolution - ample proof that Sony leads the pack, or is tied in front, no matter the DR, resolution or ISO requirement. Canon, so far, hasn't made a high-resolution sensor in the same league - the 50MP 5Ds sensor falls far short DR-wise, and performs poorly at high ISO. Nikon hasn't designed or made a high-resolution sensor at all - they're almost totally reliant on Sony for their better sensors. That's an ace in Sony's hands.

Nikon has the advantage in SLR AF systems. But how much of that can be translated to mirrorless systems? Sony leads the way in mirrorless AF technology, with Canon not far behind and Nikon not even in third place. To remain competitive for the next decade, they'll have to move in that direction, or risk becoming the next Nokia, stuck with old technology while everyone else moves ahead. After gaining a foothold with non-action shooters and Canonites frustrated with poor sensors, Sony is close to having a mirrorless camera capable of replacing an SLR for wedding, event and other general photography - indeed, for anything other than sports or fast action - and the D810 and A99 Mk 2 are likely more vulnerable than the 5D4 or D750. They're probably not too far off having a sports-capable system either - almost certainly, they'll be aiming to have one in the stands (likely als 8k-capable) in time for the 2020 Olympics, and the fact that they're in Tokyo will only make it a more important goal for them.

Nikon designs and makes its own lenses (some of which are great, some of which - particularly the zooms, which are the bread-and-butter of many photographers - aren't up to the standard of the latest Canon and Sony zooms), which is probably its greatest strength. But Sony has somewhat neutralised this by teaming up with Zeiss, at no cost to itself - being an optics company which doesn't make cameras and relies on other people's cameras to sell lenses, Zeiss' relationship with Sony is entirely symbiotic, rather than competitive or parasitic.

Yes, at the moment, Nikon is still ahead. But the momentum is in Sony's favour, and Sony also holds a better hand - there's nothing Nikon can do to slow down Sony other than developing and releasing better products, but far more that Sony can do to pile the hurt on Nikon should it find it in their advantage to do so.
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Yashika

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2016, 08:35:25 AM »

Nikon's issues aren't related to technology, it is more about poor product planning and misguided strategic investments. They would be florishing with the exact same available technology had they invested in an ambitious APS-C mirrorless system instead of the 1 series 5 years ago. Their issue is their upper mgt, not their technology.

Please forgive, I thought issue was gentleman considering brand change due to his disappointment of Photokina show. Tried to explain Photokina is one show, not year summary. This year has been quite exciting with respect to Nikon cameras (D5 and D500), all class lead, plus new lenses 600 FL and 104 f/1.4, also class leading. Year is not over also. Full perspective of Nikon development year compared to other brands is good.
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