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Author Topic: Nikon in difficulty?  (Read 29180 times)

Cornfield

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Nikon in difficulty?
« on: September 19, 2016, 01:39:22 PM »

The Nikon press announcement at Photokina today was a very disappointing product launch with just three video action cameras in an attempt to challenge GoPro.  No news of new bodies or lenses.

I was speaking to a very well informed trade journalist who says there are major problems between Nikon and Sony regarding the supply of new sensor technology.  Sony are cutting back on supplies and support to third-party manufacturers and effectively increasing market share.  There are also rumours Nikon is a take-over target for Sony.

I'll be at Photokina again for the next two days and probably start looking for an alternative system after using Nikon for forty years.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2016, 02:01:48 PM »

If you have been happy with them for forty years, then I'd suggest hang on in there and wait for reality, not rumour.

Rob C

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2016, 05:33:56 PM »

While the first half of your post may contain some facts, the second half about take over isn't credible at all.

What would Sony do with Nikon assets? Their product lines are impossible to integrate,...

Back on Kina, the lack of announcement may be disapointing, but Nikon's line up remains very strong for still photographers with the best sports camera (D5), the best DX camera (D500) and a 2 years old D810 that remains very competitive.

Honnestly, btw a me too a la 5DmkIV product announced now and a future proof D900 announced in 6 months my preference easily goes for the latter. Now we could also get a mo too D900 in 6 months and that would be disapointing.

In the mean time I am having a great time with the new 105mm f1.4, that may be the best portrait lens on the market, whatever the format...

I am open to any alternative who would help me to take better pictures but as of now Nikon remains IMHO the top dog when considering overall attainable image quality enveloppe (considering the D810 for low ISO and the D5 for high ISO,...), lens line up, AF performance,.. The only reason for opting out of Nikon now would be a concern about resell value. As a photographer who is more concerned about the images I take, I don't see value in applying an investment strategy to my photographic equipment.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 10:47:18 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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rdonson

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2016, 10:27:28 PM »

Wasn't the Sony sensor facility shut down, at least for a while, after the Kumamoto earthquake in Japan?  That might explain why Nikon has a tough time getting sensors.
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Ron

eronald

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2016, 11:55:53 PM »

I'd say there's simply no room for 3 at the top. Profit margins are getting squeezed.
Nikon is competing with its own supplier exactly like Apple is competing with Samsung.

Edmund
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David Anderson

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 03:59:26 AM »

I'm not surprised there's no big Nikon announcement at Photokina after the release of the D500, D5 and several new lenses in the last 12 months.
I imagine that Nikon were also waiting to see what the new 5DIV would have (or not have) before working out what to do next with the D810.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2016, 05:12:51 AM »

Sony would gain a lot by taking over Nikon's camera division.

No, they wouldn't have much to gain from the existing products. But what they would gain is manufacturing capability (particularly with regards to lenses) and technology. Nikon has state-of-the-art AF technology. Much of this is based around dedicated AF processors. How much would it take to adapt that technology to use on-sensor PDAF data rather than a separe, low-resolution AF sensor? And how much would it take to modify Nikon's supertelephoto lens designs (and some other ones, like the new 105mm prime) to work with Sony hardware, to give the E-mount system capability it previously lacked? Probably not a great deal. Not to mention the invaluable human capital they'd gain in the design and engineering teams.
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BrianVS

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2016, 07:25:47 AM »

Nikon brought out the D500 and D5 within the last year. I hope to see a DF-2 using the D5 sensor, and a DF-M using a monochrome version of the same sensor, or the sensor in the full-frame microscope camera. The latter was an "almost" released product, but did not come out.

Nikkor 5cm F1.5 and 13.5cm F4 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

Tough Digital market? Nikon could always go back to their roots- making lenses for Canon and Leica.
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2016, 07:40:02 AM »

I thought the 19mm tilt shift was supposed to announced. But so far I have not seen anything on it.

Paul C
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2016, 08:25:42 AM »

I thought the 19mm tilt shift was supposed to announced. But so far I have not seen anything on it.

Who knows... It's a lens that would become an instant mega seller whatever it's price, so it may not interest Nikon engineers. They have been known for preferring to work on the lenses that nobody knew they needed. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2016, 10:16:55 AM »

They are definitely taking a black eye due to their lackluster Photokina:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-swimming-wrong-direct.html
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2016, 10:26:19 AM »

Who knows... It's a lens that would become an instant mega seller whatever it's price, so it may not interest Nikon engineers. They have been known for preferring to work on the lenses that nobody knew they needed. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

It would have sure made my list, and still will.

Paul C
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2016, 11:34:42 AM »

Who knows. Their Photokina showing was diabolically and shamefully bad. at least they have some room to move on the D810 successor, but it seems they are at the mercy of Sony on the sensor side, not a good place to be.
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eronald

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2016, 09:05:36 PM »

Who knows. Their Photokina showing was diabolically and shamefully bad. at least they have some room to move on the D810 successor, but it seems they are at the mercy of Sony on the sensor side, not a good place to be.

It's not only the sensor itself, the EVF cameras are becoming  fully integrated systems.

Edmund
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2016, 01:41:05 AM »

Who knows. Their Photokina showing was diabolically and shamefully bad. at least they have some room to move on the D810 successor, but it seems they are at the mercy of Sony on the sensor side, not a good place to be.

They've been there for a while, for anything other than the action/sports bodies.

Without the Exmor, the D800/D800e/D810 would have been mediocre nothing-bodies rather than the legendary bodies they've become (up there with the 5D2 in digital camera history). The D750, D610 and many of the crop bodies likewise. Even the D7200, with its Toshiba sensor, is still based on Exmor technology - and Sony now owns Toshiba's imaging division.

Given that Nikon derives so much of its income from camera sales, Sony could cripple Nikon very quickly by cutting off its supply. But it wouldn't be in Sony's interests to do so - selling sensors to Nikon is lucrative, Nikon would probably negotiate a new supply of sensors from Samsung (strengthening one of Sony's biggest competitors), and, in the longer term, a stronger Nikon is a more attractive takeover target for Sony (which could easily buy out Nikon) than a crippled company which has lost all its best and brightest engineers.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2016, 02:19:19 AM »

They've been there for a while, for anything other than the action/sports bodies.

Without the Exmor, the D800/D800e/D810 would have been mediocre nothing-bodies rather than the legendary bodies they've become (up there with the 5D2 in digital camera history). The D750, D610 and many of the crop bodies likewise. Even the D7200, with its Toshiba sensor, is still based on Exmor technology - and Sony now owns Toshiba's imaging division.

Probably... but then again Exmor wouldn't exist in the first place if there hadn't been Nikon to fund its development by committing a huge amount of business. At that time Sony bodies were selling at least 5 times less than their Nikon counterpart.

Besides, reducing a D810 to its sensor is an over simplification. It was also the best DSLR on the market in this segment even leaving its sensor aside.

Cheers,
Bernard
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2016, 02:40:09 AM »

Probably... but then again Exmor wouldn't exist in the first place if there hadn't been Nikon to fund its development by committing a huge amount of business. At that time Sony bodies were selling at least 5 times less than their Nikon counterpart.

Hardly. Sony's biggest money-spinner is its media division. What Sony earns from films, music, games, etc. dwarfs all of Nikon. Sony would have developed Exmor anyway, once they decided to make the move into the still camera market. That Nikon bought their sensor was just icing on the cake.

Quote
Besides, reducing a D810 to its sensor is an over simplification. It was also the best DSLR on the market in this segment even leaving its sensor aside.

Cheers,
Bernard

Really?

A D800 with the Canon 5D3 sensor would have been a slow, clumsy body with limited lens selection, poor live view, a slow frame rate, a weaker AF system than the 5D3 and no immense IQ advantage over the competition. It was the Exmor which got the D800 off the ground, prior to the D810's refinements. Without it, it would have gotten nowhere. Bear in mind that, in 2012, Canon practically owned the high-resolution/low ISO crowd, since the 5D2 had such a huge resolution advantage over the D700 (which was, in every other way, a better stills camera). It's really a testament to the strength of the Exmor - and Canon's stagnation - that the D800/D810 were able to get so many people to ditch their Canon setup and move to the Nikon system.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2016, 02:49:44 AM »

Sorry, no time to engage in a discussion today.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Zorki5

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2016, 04:26:00 AM »

The only reason for opting out of Nikon now would be a concern about resell value.

So we're are talking about concerns about Nikon's resell value already... And Thom H announced he would start covering Canon along with Nikon (tried to downplay that later; yeah, of course). And now near-absence from Photokina. Little bits and pieces here and there. Nothing of significance, but somehow overall picture looks worse and worse for them.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2016, 04:57:32 AM »

Nikon has had the best few years for a very long time, maybe ever. There are so, so many choosing the Nikon D810 over medium format now. The 810 successor was never due at Photokina, and they chose to launch the D5 ahead of Photokina.

It has been, apart from a few exceptions, a very dull and disappointing Photokina all round. I wondered if these brands knew about the Fuji and either launched early, or later, so as not to be over shadowed.
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